Firas' Islam Meccathread

[ZarakiKujata]

Go play your free shitty mmo called ffxiv, when your playing a decent game you can come back and lecture me. untill then adios

your a fucking retard. You remind me of the guy playing Jesus in Religulous who tells Bill that the Holy Trinity is like the 3 forms of H2O, the holy ghost is steam, god is water and jesus is ice... You think your story is clever but it's not.

edit: also this

[Kuya]

your a fucking retard. You remind me of the guy playing Jesus in Religulous who tells Bill that the Holy Trinity is like the 3 forms of H2O, the holy ghost is steam, god is water and jesus is ice... You think your story is clever but it's not.

edit: also this

Pfft, this is easy. The answer is, the Greek gods are whimsical and malevolent.

[Correction]

Go play your free shitty mmo called ffxiv, when your playing a decent game you can come back and lecture me. untill then adios

Always fun to watch a teenager try to win an argument.

[bigrougabagel]

Go play your free shitty mmo called ffxiv, when your playing a decent game you can come back and lecture me. untill then adios

You made fun of my fairy tales, oh yeah? I'll make fun of your entertainment selection and see who has the last laugh there. Zing mother fucker. Clobetasol out.

[clobetasol]

An atheist is a man who believes himself an accident.
~ Francis Thompson

Atheism is the result of ignorance and pride; of strong sense and feeble reasons;
of good eating and ill-living. It is the plague of society, the corrupter of manners,
and the underminer of property.
~ Jeremy Collier

He who never thirsts for God here, will thirst for Him before he has been dead
a minute.
~ B. North

[Alleya]

OH NO, HIS QUOTES! WE ARE RUINED, REPENT, REPENT!

Spoiler: show

I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours - Stephen Roberts

You're basically killing each other to see who's got the better imaginary friend - Richard Jeni

And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence - Bertrand Russell

Two hands working can do more than a thousand clasped in prayer -Anonymous

OMG I CAN DO IT TO WE ARE SAVED, ARGUMENT WON GUYS, ALL HAIL THIS SUPERIOR FORM OF RHETORIC

[Bingbong]

Since this thread is now about theists vs atheists, I have a question to the Atheists in the bunch (not being one myself).

What's the point of it all then? More so, when death comes, do you think that's it, just over and done? Put you in the ground, burn you whatever, and then nothing? Just lots of black, while you decompose for the next few decades?

We as a species arrived at what we are for some reason. Atheists strictly believe evolution got us here, a series of events without reason - just the proper circumstances. Fine, but for what purpose do we have this higher conscious of ourselves and those around us? No other being on the planet is more aware of itself, it's surroundings, and the way the universe operates than humans. In the atheist's point of view, why are we able to reason, for what ends do things like morales and values hold if at the end, the only thing that matters is if you spread your dna to the next line of humans? What purpose do we serve?

[Kuya]

Since this thread is now about theists vs atheists, I have a question to the Atheists in the bunch (not being one myself).

What's the point of it all then? More so, when death comes, do you think that's it, just over and done? Put you in the ground, burn you whatever, and then nothing? Just lots of black, while you decompose for the next few decades?

We as a species arrived at what we are for some reason. Atheists strictly believe evolution got us here, a series of events without reason - just the proper circumstances. Fine, but for what purpose do we have this higher conscious of ourselves and those around us? No other being on the planet is more aware of itself, it's surroundings, and the way the universe operates than humans. In the atheist's point of view, why are we able to reason, for what ends do things like morales and values hold if at the end, the only thing that matters is if you spread your dna to the next line of humans? What purpose do we serve?

When death comes, that's it. I would like there to be something more, but that's wishful thinking. Nothing indicates anything beyond oblivion.

Next, there is no need to propose that we have any purpose. To ask whether we're here for a purpose presuposes an intelligent being behind our existence (asking the question, assumes the answer), because only organisms with intelligence do things with purpose. But there is no need for a purpose for us to exists. Purpose is something that is either imposed on us or we choose for ourselves. You choose what you want to live for (or your culture chooses for you). But there is no indication that there is an absolute universal purpose to our existence.

[bigrougabagel]

Since this thread is now about theists vs atheists

It's not, It is now about an idiot throwing his barrage of self-assumed atheist kryptonite about like a vengeful crackhead. Please stop now. This thread was shit to begin with, and is now ready to get even shittier.

edit: direction was unclear, clobetasol, not you

[Alleya]

What's the point of it all then? More so, when death comes, do you think that's it, just over and done? Put you in the ground, burn you whatever, and then nothing? Just lots of black, while you decompose for the next few decades?

Meaning in life/the universe is a matter of choice whether you have religious beliefs or not. It's really up to you to decide what you think about meaning. I count myself an absurdist, personally. Just start reading philosophy if it bothers you that much. Fact is that most people don't spend all day thinking about the meaning of their life unless they're depressed or just weird. This whole question is only something that comes up in these sorts of discussions, generally used by theists as some kind of battering ram, as if some kind of revealed knowledge of meaning is the key to happiness and fulfillment when it really isn't. Most atheists I know just accept that there's no real way to know any sort of meaning as certainty, in fact most of them are pretty fascinated and excited by it.

We as a species arrived at what we are for some reason. Atheists strictly believe evolution got us here, a series of events without reason - just the proper circumstances. Fine, but for what purpose do we have this higher conscious of ourselves and those around us? No other being on the planet is more aware of itself, it's surroundings, and the way the universe operates than humans. In the atheist's point of view, why are we able to reason, for what ends do things like morales and values hold if at the end, the only thing that matters is if you spread your dna to the next line of humans? What purpose do we serve?

You're making a lot of assumptions. Just because something exists does not mean it has a "purpose" for existing. I notice that this line of thinking only ever appears when discussing the unique special specialyness of humans like you're doing. No one ever says "what's the purpose of ROCKS then, atheists? Answer that one! They're so complex, they must be here for a reason."

What is purpose anyway? Why is it so important that humans have a purpose for existing. What does that accomplish? It seems to me that in religion, that purpose for existing is to glorify some greater power and stroke his ego, although why an entity that powerful would care what a couple of short-lived meatsacks think about him, I cannot imagine. I fail to be inspired by the idea that I exist for the purpose of pleasing an entity who can't even bother to reveal itself in any meaningful or unquestionable way, especially when that being promises eternal torture if I fail to do so. Why does god care about you at all, other than the fact that you want to believe that he does, or that someone tells you that it's just how he is? How do you know? Faith I suppose. Not good enough for me.

And in the end, you answered your own question. Evolution explains morality, explains values. Psychology and sociology are doing a pretty good job of unpacking the questions of meaning and purpose so far, too. Books upon books have been written expounding on these things and gathering mountains of evidence. Theists have 1 very old book full of conflicting ideas, or traditions. Not good enough.

[ZarakiKujata]

No other being on the planet is more aware of itself, it's surroundings, and the way the universe operates than humans.

I'll give you the last one, but self-awareness and other human traits are witnessed in more and more species as time goes by. The fact that other animals are capable of self awareness and other seemingly human traits gives much more credence to evolution imo then it does towards your imaginary friend nonsense.

[Faris]

says the atheist. all they propose are speculations and questions...why are we living? why cant god show himself? why is there evil if god good? round and round they go.


your questions can only puzzle the simple minds who really do not understand what they follow as a system of life, life has a purpose, everything has a purpose. [says the batshit theist]

[Kuya]

I believe chimpanzees (and probably other primates too) and dolphins pass the mirror test.

[ZarakiKujata]

I've personally seen dolphins pass the mirror test, have you seen Jesus/Flying Spaghetti Monster/Allah?

edit: not counting on a tortilla.

[Fhqwghads]

Since this thread is now about theists vs atheists, I have a question to the Atheists in the bunch (not being one myself).

What's the point of it all then? More so, when death comes, do you think that's it, just over and done? Put you in the ground, burn you whatever, and then nothing? Just lots of black, while you decompose for the next few decades?

We as a species arrived at what we are for some reason. Atheists strictly believe evolution got us here, a series of events without reason - just the proper circumstances. Fine, but for what purpose do we have this higher conscious of ourselves and those around us? No other being on the planet is more aware of itself, it's surroundings, and the way the universe operates than humans. In the atheist's point of view, why are we able to reason, for what ends do things like morales and values hold if at the end, the only thing that matters is if you spread your dna to the next line of humans? What purpose do we serve?

See, the problem you are having is insisting there has to be a reason and a purpose for existing. As soon as you can come to terms with existing for the sake of existing, you'll understand why some people don't feel the need to believe in anything. Being self-aware doesn't make you a unique snowflake as far as the universe is concerned. Just enjoy it while you can.

[Kuya]

says the atheist. all they propose are speculations and questions...why are we living? why cant god show himself? why is there evil if god good? round and round they go.


your questions can only puzzle the simple minds who really do not understand what they follow as a system of life, life has a purpose, everything has a purpose. [says the batshit theist]

1. There is no way if knowing if there's a transcendental purpose to life.

2. Because there is no way of knowing, we make up reasons to live for.

3. Religion and other institutions and philosophies produce these reasons so people can live easier lives.

4. Some philosophies want to pretend that their dogma is the transcendental truth mentioned in #1.

The problem, it seems, is that some philosophies want to pretend they're something other than the silly ape tools they were created to be.

[clobetasol]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rgGxdqMNWes

[Cadsuane]

Spoiler: show

To the atheists out there:

The atheist professor of philosophy pauses before his class and then asks one of his new students to stand.

'You're a Christian, aren't you, son?'

'Yes sir,' the student says.

'So you believe in God?'

'Absolutely.'

'Is God good?'

'Sure! God's good.'

'Is God all-powerful? Can God do anything?'

'Yes'

'Are you good or evil?'

'The Bible says I'm evil.'

The professor grins knowingly. 'Aha! The Bible! He considers for a moment. 'Here's one for you.
Let's say there's a sick person over here and you can cure him. You can do it. Would you help him? Would you try?'

'Yes sir, I would.'

'So you're good...!'

'I wouldn't say that.'

'But why not say that? You'd help a sick and maimed person if you could. Most of us would if we could. But God doesn't.'

The student does not answer, so the professor continues. 'He doesn't, does he? My brother was a Christian who died of cancer,
even though he prayed to Jesus to heal him. How is this Jesus good? Can you answer that one?'

The student remains silent. 'No, you can't, can you?' the professor says. He takes a sip of water from a glass on his desk to give the student time to relax.
'Let's start again, young fella. Is God good?'

'Er..yes,' the student says.

'Is Satan good?'

The student doesn't hesitate on this one. 'No.'

'Then where does Satan come from?'

The student falters. 'From God'

'That's right. God made Satan, didn't he? Tell me, son. Is there evil in this world?'

'Yes, sir..'

'Evil's everywhere, isn't it? And God did make everything, correct?'

'Yes'

'So who created evil?' The professor continued, 'If God created everything, then God created evil, since evil exists,
and according to the principle that our works define who we are, then God is evil.'

Again, the student has no answer. 'Is there sickness? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness? All these terrible things, do they exist in this world?'

The student squirms on his feet. 'Yes.'

'So who created them?'

The student does not answer again, so the professor repeats his question. 'Who created them?' There is still no answer.
Suddenly the lecturer breaks away to pace in front of the classroom. The class is mesmerized. 'Tell me,' he continues onto another student.
'Do you believe in Jesus Christ, son?'

The student's voice betrays him and cracks. 'Yes, professor, I do.'

The old man stops pacing. 'Science says you have five senses you use to identify and observe the world around you. Have you ever seen Jesus?'

'No sir. I've never seen Him.'

'Then tell us if you've ever heard your Jesus?'

'No, sir, I have not..'

'Have you ever felt your Jesus, tasted your Jesus or smelt your Jesus? Have you ever had any sensory perception of Jesus Christ, or God for that matter?'

'No, sir, I'm afraid I haven't.'

'Yet you still believe in him?'

'Yes'

'According to the rules of empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol, science says your God doesn't exist... What do you say to that, son?'

'Nothing,' the student replies.. 'I only have my faith.'

'Yes, faith,' the professor repeats. 'And that is the problem science has with God. There is no evidence, only faith.'

The student stands quietly for a moment, before asking a question of His own. 'Professor, is there such thing as heat? '

'Yes.'

'And is there such a thing as cold?'

'Yes, son, there's cold too.'

'No sir, there isn't.'

The professor turns to face the student, obviously interested. The room suddenly becomes very quiet. The student begins to explain.
'You can have lots of heat, even more heat, super-heat, mega-heat, unlimited heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat,
but we don't have anything called 'cold'. We can hit down to 458 degrees below zero, which is no heat, but we can't go any further after that.
There is no such thing as cold; otherwise we would be able to go colder than the lowest -458 degrees.
Every body or object is susceptible to study when it has or transmits energy, and heat is what makes a body or matter have or transmit energy.
Absolute zero (-458 F) is the total absence of heat. You see, sir, cold is only a word we use to describe the absence of heat. We cannot measure cold.
Heat we can measure in thermal units because heat is energy. Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it.'

Silence across the room. A pen drops somewhere in the classroom, sounding like a hammer.

'What about darkness, professor. Is there such a thing as darkness?'

'Yes,' the professor replies without hesitation.. 'What is night if it isn't darkness?'

'You're wrong again, sir. Darkness is not something; it is the absence of something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing light,
but if you have no light constantly you have nothing and it's called darkness, isn't it? That's the meaning we use to define the word. In reality,
darkness isn't. If it were, you would be able to make darkness darker, wouldn't you?'

The professor begins to smile at the student in front of him. This will be a good semester. 'So what point are you making, young man?'

'Yes, professor. My point is, your philosophical premise is flawed to start with, and so your conclusion must also be flawed.'

The professor's face cannot hide his surprise this time. 'Flawed? Can you explain how?'

'You are working on the premise of duality,' the student explains. 'You argue that there is life and then there's death; a good God and a bad God.
You are viewing the concept of God as something finite, something we can measure. Sir, science can't even explain a thought.
It uses electricity and magnetism, but has never seen, much less fully understood either one.
To view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing. Death is not the opposite of life,
just the absence of it.' 'Now tell me, professor. Do you teach your students that they evolved from a monkey?'

'If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, young man, yes, of course I do.'

'Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?'

The professor begins to shake his head, still smiling, as he realizes where the argument is going. A very good semester, indeed.

'Since no one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavour,
are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you now not a scientist, but a preacher?'

The class is in uproar. The student remains silent until the commotion has subsided. 'To continue the point you were making earlier to the other student,
let me give you an example of what I mean.' The student looks around the room. 'Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the professor's brain?'
The class breaks out into laughter. 'Is there anyone here who has ever heard the professor's brain, felt the professor's brain,
touched or smelt the professor's brain? No one appears to have done so. So, according to the established rules of empirical, stable,
demonstrable protocol, science says that you have no brain, with all due respect, sir.' 'So if science says you have no brain,
how can we trust your lectures, sir?'

Now the room is silent. The professor just stares at the student, his face unreadable. Finally, after what seems an eternity, the old man answers.
'I Guess you'll have to take them on faith.'

'Now, you accept that there is faith, and, in fact, faith exists with life,' the student continues. 'Now, sir, is there such a thing as evil?'
Now uncertain, the professor responds, 'Of course, there is. We see it every day. It is in the daily example of man's inhumanity to man.
It is in the multitude of crime and violence everywhere in the world. These manifestations are nothing else but evil.'

To this the student replied, 'Evil does not exist sir, or at least it does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God.
It is just like darkness and cold, a word that man has created to describe the absence of God. God did not create evil.
Evil is the result of what happens when man does not have God's love present in his heart.
It's like the cold that comes when there is no heat or the darkness that comes when there is no light.'

The professor sat down.

I thought I was going to read a version of Anselm's ontological proof here, which would be stupid enough, but this is an even stupider straw man/ontological proof.

[Alleya]

clobetasol , can you actually make an argument for yourself, or are you so ingrained with the religious mindset that the only thing you can comprehend is letting someone else speak for you?

[Dimmauk]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rgGxdqMNWes

LOL! Did you really just post a youtube link?