An Important Announcement for FINAL FANTASY XIV Fans

[xopher]

Been away for a while, but wanted to respond to this. FFXI was fucking garbage. I get nostalgic about it too, that doesn't mean it wasn't terrible. And BTW, I thought it sucked and I didn't run to WoW and stay. I actually had a relic, and played FFXI for a long time. It was shitty and boring, unless you think all of the following things are fun:

1) Remaining stationary anywhere from 2-6 hours waiting for a certain monster to pop, only to have it claimed by someone else.
2) Wandering aimlessly and doing absolutely nothing for anywhere from 1-3 hours waiting for a party invite.
3) Spending weeks (or months) camping the same mob for a rare drop, having it stolen from you or claimed by bots most of the time.
4) Killing the same mob continuously for 4-6 hours (literally) while trying to level up or earn merit points.
5) Losing millions upon millions of gil breaking synths that you are far, far too high level to be breaking.

There was nothing fun about FFXI. It was, however, addicting. But the only good memories from FFXI, and the only thing people get nostalgic about are, as you even said yourself, from the times when you were a noob. The rest of the game was an addictive piece of shit.

FFXI was basically Progress Quest, with a character that you can move around and influence the behavior of. It was nothing but grinding, literally. At the time, though, it was new and unique. If FFXI had come out after WoW, the game would have flopped majorly. Luckily it came out before WoW, and they got people hooked before WoW had a chance to take them. And no, I'm not a WoW fanboy (I only played for about a year before quitting, compared to about 4 years for FFXI), but facts are facts, and anyone who rather cater to 100,000 people than to 12 million should have just been aborted, it's breathtaking how stupid you would have to be to actually want to be a failure. And it seems the development team of 14 didn't even look at WoW when designing this fucking turd of a game they've released in 14.

One time I tried to get a friend of mine to play FFXI. This guy was a huge fan of the FF series, to the point that he once heard my ringtone on my phone and knew exactly which game and which boss fight it came from (and it was obscure too, I think it was FFV but it was a while ago). He started in Windurst, and after getting to like level 7 he was like "I've been killing bees for 4 hours, this isn't much fun ". That sums up the game right there, and even at the time I realized he was right. It isn't fun.

Sucks to be butthurt but uh. FFXI was a ton of fun

[ZarakiKujata]

Err. Really? In FFXI big boss fights are just massive endurance tests. There is absolutely nothing unique or interesting about any boss in FFXI. Nothing feels hectic at all. You can sum up almost every boss battle in XI with a flowchart with probably like 4-5 squares on it. Of course, even the boss fights are a grind, considering how long it takes to kill them. 2 hours of keeping eyes focused on the chat log so you don't miss a Stun. That sums up FFXI's approach to boss fights.

Flowcharted endurance tests or not (and you can say that for any MMO Boss really), there is something to be said about the rush of lowmanning from solo tanking a lowman Nidhogg/Tiamat/Khim/Cerb while 30+ ppl watched in jealousy. Another situation, albeit so much more nostalgic is the feeling of your sky ls's first few kited Kirins in general as a tank/main whm etc and more specifically after a bad sequence of lesser gods or 2hr near wipe and it being entirely on 2-4 people to keep it occupied with sacs or kiting until alliance can recover. Theres plenty more scenarios like that, by they nostalgia tinted or not that made XI a lot of fun, despite the many imperfections of its endgame.

[miokomioko]

First-time barely-successes on newly implemented or low-manned BCNMs/HNMs/Final Battles is the biggest rush/best fun. People make the fights less and less fun over time or by not caring to even attempt without the ideal setup for fear of loss of money/time/points/claim/exp/etc.

Playing as Bard on Ouryu when he was the big new thing was a fuckin' blast with all of the often-unchecked adds and whatnot to try to control with no real strategy established beforehand. HPs dropping to red left and right, only one of the two tanks alive at any given time, etc.

[Hyan]

Took my group 4 months to kill the fucking long bowed chariot.

Gotta say the moment it died was something to be remembered.

[Grey Jorildyn]

Eh, I agree with a lot and disagree with as much. I personally didn't have much fun in XI the last two and a half years I was there. I enjoyed leading and the adminstrative work for the shell more than actually playing. I remember starting my Excal and just not really caring. Then I got banned with that about 85% complete and continued to not care. Never rebought or resubbed in any way. It just lost its luster for me (leadership burnout was certainly not the cause though) and I've never played WoW and took lotsa short breaks to play console stuff like ME, FO3, etc. It had its good and bad, and the good was alright and the bad was really, really bad (Salvage drop rates for example).

[Spira]

XI has definitely had its moments. whilst the early years of XI will no doubt be a nostalgia fest for many players, there must have been something about it that drew people to like it that much even if at this point looking back, everything seemed a whole lot more tedious than it is now. For its time, XI was a beautiful world and very immersive. Remembering things like your first trek from Bastok to Valkurm, then the first boat ride.. stuff like that is awesome... and nostalgia isn't necessarily quality, but nostalgia can go a long way in terms of retaining an audience.
Hell, nostalgia is part of what keeps FF thriving to this day (and what affords Glee its huge fanbase)

Music.. well.. when we leaked the OST for XIV at the start of alpha i must say i was unimpressed by a lot of tracks (going so far as to nickname something clown track almost immediately). Some tracks stood out for the amazing melody and instrumentation, to be sure, but many felt odd and out of place. But to be fair, an OST cannot just be judged by the music alone but its implementation in game as well. Paired well, the scenario could push the music into the realm of epic, and vice-versa. I, however, am still most unimpressed by the starter city battle tracks. And Black Shroud. I hate that place because of the music alone.

FFXI has come a long way since vanilla in terms of music tho. Vanilla was composed by Uematsu at the helm and supported by Kuni Tanioka and Naoshi Mizuta. Mizuta took over for all the expansions save for Distant Worlds and he's been getting better and better. WotG music is excellent, as is the Abyssea tracks and the most recent final boss music for WotG, which in itself took a jab at nostalgia and felt pretty epic in game..

musically, XI and XIV are really very different styles at this point.

[pingpong]

Err. Really? In FFXI big boss fights are just massive endurance tests. There is absolutely nothing unique or interesting about any boss in FFXI. Nothing feels hectic at all. You can sum up almost every boss battle in XI with a flowchart with probably like 4-5 squares on it. Of course, even the boss fights are a grind, considering how long it takes to kill them. 2 hours of keeping eyes focused on the chat log so you don't miss a Stun. That sums up FFXI's approach to boss fights.

I enjoyed the different endurance tests, the strategizing before each boss, esp low-man strategies and unique party compositions, then testing theories by making some good attempts with death and exp loss on the line.

I'm sorry you didn't enjoy FFXI, but believe it or not for some people, it is the best game they've ever played.

[Blasta]

Remembering things like your first trek from Bastok to Valkurm, then the first boat ride.. stuff like that is awesome... and nostalgia isn't necessarily quality, but nostalgia can go a long way in terms of retaining an audience.
Hell, nostalgia is part of what keeps FF thriving to this day (and what affords Glee its huge fanbase)

Agreed and Glee, nice example :D Its true

[Lucavi]

XI has definitely had its moments. whilst the early years of XI will no doubt be a nostalgia fest for many players, there must have been something about it that drew people to like it that much even if at this point looking back, everything seemed a whole lot more tedious than it is now. For its time, XI was a beautiful world and very immersive. Remembering things like your first trek from Bastok to Valkurm, then the first boat ride.. stuff like that is awesome... and nostalgia isn't necessarily quality, but nostalgia can go a long way in terms of retaining an audience.

How was XI immersive? The graphics? The only things you were able to interact with were monsters and ? marks on the ground. I remember my first run to valkurm. I got chased by goblins and mauled at the highlands, then restarted at bastok. Got chased again, mauled again, and restarted. I also remember there was no music out there. My third time I almost made it, but was dropped by a drk quad and had to make the run again. The dunes looked nice when I got there, but again, there was no music. The only "immersion" I experienced was the feeling of the place being a very real threat, due to all the corpses of players, the mobs chasing everyone to an invisible spawn line, then killing the next people to walk through, and people constantly flooding the screen with orange text screaming obscenities and hate-speech over frustrations with everyone death-training goblins out of fear.

I suppose someone can construe that as "immersion", but to me, immersion and interactivity go hand-in-hand. What can I do in the world? How can I affect the world? What is going on around me if I do nothing? What does it sound like?

I didn't get much "immersion" from FFXI using that criteria. I got a nice-looking set of screens to look at and fight on, but I didn't exactly get some immersive experience.

[Hyan]

How was XI immersive? The graphics? The only things you were able to interact with were monsters and ? marks on the ground.

The people.

Seriously, goddamnit, it is an MMO. I shouldn't need to point this out. From the beginning to the end, the people made the game.

[pingpong]

The people.

Seriously, goddamnit, it is an MMO. I shouldn't need to point this out. From the beginning to the end, the people made the game.

I think this might by why so different people have polar opposite reactions to FFXI. The game was so dependent on others.

For FFXI, you either met lifelong friends or flat out hated the game. Games like WoW don't have that type of restriction b/c anybody can just jump in and have an "ok" time, with or without anybody else.

[Lucavi]

So by that logic, even a Korean grinder is immersive because you can talk to and team up with people.

People don't equal immersion. People equal social. Huge difference. Immersion is how drawn into the game you are and what you can do with the world of the game, not who you can talk to or team up with.

[Hyan]

Korean grinder is hardly immersive because they never encourage you to socialize. Our societies are individualistic, we are not going to socialize just like that. Compare to JP's that are like at home in a group.

Your problem is that you can't see the fact that to some people social equals immersion. When I do shit with friends or strangers and interact with them, I am immersed to the game. Game world is simply the stage in which the interaction happens.

You are trying to force your view of "immersion" to me, and you know what, it's not going to work. You are not like me, and you value different things, that much is clear.

[Lucavi]

I think we've talked about this before. Yeah, we have 2 different views. What I can do in the confines of the world = immersion to me. You playing with friends = immersion to you.

Carry on.

[SayomiSassaki]

I think we've talked about this before. Yeah, we have 2 different views. What I can do in the confines of the world = immersion to me. You playing with friends = immersion to you.

Carry on.

About your Immersion vision, I can understand that for you an Immersion is not about the interaction between people, but I would like to have an example of a thing you would like to do in the world that would mean you interact with it? If i forgot the people part, I can see the minning, harvesting, fishing, fighting, crafting, quest leves... so what else would you like to interact with?

[Hyan]

Shiiiii-

You opened the pandora.

[Lucavi]

The "reality" of the world, for me. Can I swim if there is water, or at least take a drink? Walk through it? See a fish in it?? Can I climb over a small rock if there is no reason I shouldn't be able to? Perhaps stumble against it? At least engage in a different movement animation that denotes that there is uneven terrain in some way? Should this wolf not attack that bandit over there, simply because he is "my" enemy? If I'm supposed to push this stone for a quest, can I actually push it? Do I simply approach it and it is implied that I pushed it? Should I simply touch a ? on the ground and lo and behold, it is pushed?

That's all immersion for me. One thing that drives me nuts in XIV is the fact that all of this wonderful lore is wrapped up in these leves, and then you do them, and they're so flat. Bandits are supposed to be from a nearby village and are skulling everyone around. Where's the village? Where's the random people? Have we seen one burned-out house yet? One smashed caravan? ANY indication that this is a dangerous world outside of mobs and background (farrr into the background) stillshots? These wolves are savage and attack ANYTHING, and yet that enemy humanoid just walked by without the wolf attacking, yet they'll both jump me or some other PC in a heartbeat if we so much as walk 30 feet away.

XIV feels like being placed in a pretty, colorful on-rails ride. You can't get close to the edges. You can't see anything outside of what's expected (basically the exact same as XI: you're going to zone a lot, going to touch a lot of ?'s, going to see a lot of mobs do nothing until you show up, and are going to hear the victory fanfare from time to time), you can't see anything outside of what's expected, and if you aren't looking at the game as a good place to smack mobs with a buddy on vent or craft an item for another buddy on vent, you're probably amazed at how shallow the experience is.

The game is fun at times, but, given my standards of what constitutes immersion, it falls flat on its face. All I can do is walk, run, fight, or perform a scripted set of motions based on what tools I currently carry. The only time the game seemingly has life is during CSes.

@Hyan: No pandora. A single post.

[SayomiSassaki]

Ok I understand what you mean, and I agree that it would be a really nice immersion to have those. The only MMO I played was FFXI and WOW so exept for the swimming and the village in WOW, there is nothing like you describ in them, or I didnt saw it. But is there a MMO who have those?

Shiiiii-

You opened the pandora.

There is no Pandora to open there lol And he have good point to

[Hyan]

You opened another pandora, gdi

[solracht]

WoW has pretty much everything he mentions on his post, including cutscenes now. I don't know when you tried that game, but most of it has been there since the start too.

Also immersion from the game world and immersion from the players shouldn't be mutually exclusive. A good game should have both. You can't excuse the complete lack of an immersive game world just because you can enjoy it with players. I'd hope you could, you're playing a multiplayer game after all.