An Important Announcement for FINAL FANTASY XIV Fans

[Lucavi]

More like budget limitations.. but why would we care about that, right? We live in the world of unlimited budgets, indeed.

Everything can and will be done, as long as we ignore the irrelevant factors.

Takes money to make money; just ask Blizz. And its not like SE is some tiny indie company. They dumped plenty of cash into the Spirits Within, didn't they? Its like you're sitting in at their board meetings, what with all the excuses you make for them.

[Hyan]

I don't know what point you're trying to make here.

This guy compared single player games to MMO's - implying that "in 2010" there should be no differences between the two quality wise. Yeah, no.

What is he comparing to, anyway? Oblivion? Immersive? Well, you learn new things every day I guess.

[Lucavi]

I don't know what point you're trying to make here.

This guy compared single player games to MMO's - implying that "in 2010" there should be no differences between the two quality wise. Yeah, no.

What is he comparing to, anyway? Oblivion? Immersive? Well, you learn new things every day I guess.

You keep talking about budget constraints as a reason for MMOs (specifically XIV) not incorporating more immersion outside of player collaboration. I'm saying that it takes money to make money, citing Blizzard as a case in point. They spent money, and while they really got lucky with their game in terms of blowing up, they have a proven track record of spending money and carefully developing their products. Go figure that everything they put out sells a ton.

The point is that SE cannot throw up a "budget constraints!" smokescreen, because they are:

A) A major company; a driving force behind games in the last 25 years that was, until this last year, extremely profitable (discounting the movie disaster that eventually led to the merger), and:
B) This is a flagship, numbered Final Fantasy. This isn't Chocobo Racing, or some Playstation cheap spin-off. You can't tell me that they didn't walk into this with a huge budget. What they did with that budget is anyone's guess.

Using that kind of smokescreen is reserved for small indie companies, or subdivisions handed a modest sum by major companies like EA that have to strain water out of a rock, metaphorically speaking. SE isn't getting a free pass, though, and I don't know why you keep speaking about their budget as if you have some insider knowledge on them having only 20 mil or something to spend on FINAL FANTASY FOURTEEN, not "Generic MMORPG #2".

[Hyan]

All I'm saying is that MMO's =/= single player games, especially with similar budgets. Saying "because single player games can do X, MMO's can do it too" is foolish in itself.

Well, sure, MMO's can always strive to be single player games with multiplayer feature, and they definitely are doing a decent job at trying to get there.

[Lucavi]

And all I'm saying is to stop throwing the word budget around the discussion of why SE can't seem to get any sort of immersion other than "do X with people". They can do better. Its not that hard. They certainly have the money. They are still considered a "Giant" when stacked up against competitive companies. They have 0 immersion in this game right now outside of the quality of the graphics, the sound effects, and the fact that things "feel" better when done as a group.

You still have 0 control over your surroundings, you still cannot "do" anything outside of walk/run/emote and perform scripted animations based on the tools you carry in your hand, you still cannot impact your surroundings outside of making a monster vanish after you kill it, and this game still has a long way to go to actually suck people in outside of the "I enjoy the game" canned responses.

Edit: I completely forgot. When you walk/run, a little tuft of dust/leaves comes up with your hard thuds (even in light shoes - lower that volume, SE). Pure immersion, baby.

[bruiser]

A budget is obviously necessary in order to create immersion. But you seem to be implying that a budget is also sufficient. As in, there's no other possible explanation for the lack of immersion except for budget constraints. But there is an explanation. I'll give you a hint: It starts with a T, and rhymes with Anaka.

[Hyan]

I haven't seen a game that does both well enough yet- before I do, budget it is. And don't think anything you say would suddenly change that.

May be Tanaka too, of course. He is in charge of the budget, after all.

[Lucavi]

I'm not trying to change your mind. I'm only expressing the short-sightedness of your view that SE somehow lacks the budget to make this game an immersive one. I'm sure Rift has a smaller budget, and that game looks far more immersive. Not only can you interact with the world around you, but judging by that crazy alpha leak of the catapults raining those massive shards across entire islands, the world can sure as hell interact with you as well.

Or we can all just blame Tanaka. That seems to be the community project that never runs out of steam.

[bruiser]

Well, that's kind of the job of a producer. Making sure the game is fun and satisfying the player. So yea, if it doesn't work out, even if the problem is budget-related, you can blame it on the budget, but I'm going to blame it on the producer for not making sure that they had a large enough budget, or not using the budget they did have efficiently. Or maybe just for being a moron who's out-of-touch with reality.

[Thiefami]

Immersion can be found in games with the shittiest budget. Hell I found myself immersed playing muds as a teenager and that doesn't even have graphics outside of textual! There is no reason for this game to be lacking so much. XI had very nice immersion, this game is just incomplete. I still enjoy it, it's just incomplete. Pretty graphics can only take you so far. There are quite a few things this game is lacking and its been talked about over a billion times. NPC quests which provide the lore, suitable battle system, lack of explanation on numerous things, lack of content, the list goes on and on. I won't sit here and pretend like I know why the fuck these very essential things are missing from this game like Hyan does, but I will say they either neither to choose it or lose it. They only have so many chances to get this right, and I believe they are on the last one.

[Lucavi]

^ Sounds pretty good to me.

[Hyan]

I'm not trying to change your mind. I'm only expressing the short-sightedness of your view that SE somehow lacks the budget to make this game an immersive one. I'm sure Rift has a smaller budget, and that game looks far more immersive. Not only can you interact with the world around you, but judging by that crazy alpha leak of the catapults raining those massive shards across entire islands, the world can sure as hell interact with you as well.

You do realize who you are talking to? Each and every time I have to let you know that immersion is not the result of a single feature or is always present when a game is created in X way. Rift looks like it would not immerse me in any shape or form, which is a common problem with other Western and some Korean MMO's in general. What are you trying to prove?

Once I can get immersed in the game you get immersed in, I can agree that budget is not the excuse here. But before that happens- and it doesn't look like it will anytime soon- there is only one short-sighted fellow in this thread. I understand why you are immersed- you don't seem to understand why I am, and even if you do, you undervalue it because it isn't important to you.

It is getting rather tiring, to be fucking honest with you.

[Lucavi]

By your logic, Pong is the core definition of immersion, because it requires you to play with others, and it becomes entirely more enjoyable once that criteria is met. That's all fine and dandy; nobody is telling you not to play XIV because it engrosses and immerses you. My main point was your asinine comment about the budget. If the immersion schpeal isn't your thing, so be it.

[bruiser]

No matter how immersive Rift is or is not, it's going to be a pool of diarrhea for plenty of other reasons.

[Hyan]

Well, it's not so much my logic, simply what I find immersive.

Still, I need to see it to believe it. Games with reasonable budgets achieve the level of immersion that you like. Games with reasonable budgets achieve the level of immersion that I like. But for someone to get both right? It may not be budget related, but something is preventing it from actually happening.

[Lucavi]

That was kind of a question, Hyan. Is Pong your golden standard of immersion? Do you feel completely immersed and engrossed in the game because you need others to play with and its more fun once that criteria is met? Does it suck you into the world of black and white; of offense and defense; of feints and counters?

[Hyan]

Well, I find several type of games immersive, but as far as MMO's go, I kinda need it.

Other ways to immerse me, is good gameplay (talking about Bayonetta-style here) or a good story (Lost Odyssey kept me hooked amazingly long). But rarely if ever do MMO's provide this.

[bruiser]

This word immersion is starting to become meaningless, as a result of this thread. It almost sounds like you want to replace "immersion" with "enjoyment".

[Elcura]

MMOs can do it with story if you go from story event/mission to story event/mission. I did that with CoP and I loved every moment, but ToAU didn't feel as immersive because of the 3 month wait between missions (I liked what I got though). FFXIV is the same, I loved doing the rank 1, 5, 15 and 20 missions back to back, but having to wait 5 ranks, which gets longer and longer each time breaks me out.

Game play is also good for immersion, and I agree with Hyan that Bayonetta/Vanquish/DMC type game play gets me in a game like a motherfucker, but most MMOs aren't strong enough in the game play department for me to feel that.

I hope that Blade and Soul, as well as C9 changes all that though. But certain things are just harder to do when you have to cater to thousands of people at the exact same time.

[Hyan]

This word immersion is starting to become meaningless, as a result of this thread. It almost sounds like you want to replace "immersion" with "enjoyment".

Yes, just like the word "fun". It is stupid to talk about whether a game is objectively "fun" or "immersive" because your fun or immersion may not be my fun nor immersion. That's the point.

I hope that Blade and Soul, as well as C9 changes all that though.

Granted, there has to be some sort of difficulty involved too. It's hard to replicate in an O/MMORPG environment.