Random Question Thread XVIII: Just an Ordinary Sword of Legend

[Yugl]

My cure macros are all <me>. If i need to cure someone, i just use the menu. But not really, since cure4 is never even worth casting.

But more importantly, we'll win with or without their survival. Right?!

[rog]

But more importantly, we'll win with or without their survival. Right?!

I just afk until everyone else is dead, then i come back to save the day. It's the only way i can trick people into thinking i'm useful.

[arus2001]

I always thought the no enfeeble thing was more a consequence of colibri, both between reflecting magic and then shit just dying in under 20 seconds if you're at all competent. Even though we've moved past them for the most part, old habits, etc..

[Nightfyre]

No enfeebles means more counters if you're using a MNK or /MNK tank!

To the assaults/Mythic question, no.

How does ninjutsu skill affect Ni/San nukes post-update? Putting together a ninjutsu set on the off chance I need to nuke something when on NIN and I'm trying to figure out what I should be using for head/feet/neck/back.

bump^

[Cream Soda]

There are 6 Abyssites of Merit.

Heroes Vendor, Bhumi, Warbler, MIsa quest, Konsh quest, Grauberg Skeleton.

Yea, I know. Typo. I have 6/6

[Mer]

Ok, i apologize if this has been asked before, but we have a bit of a debate going on in my linkshell.

Theory goes: With abyssite of Discernment, if you get triggering message with a certain spell or weaponskill, that weaponskill will not be the one to proc that particular weakness.

example1: random LS member gets XX is weak to great katana weaponskills.
Sam uses gekko accidently during NM's tp move, spell, or whatever, but instantly gets message for GK weakness.
Sam just uses Kasha only because its most definetly not gekko.


Anyone encountered scenario like this? Limited testing never disproved it, but a few members swear by it. (screenshot or didnt happen etc,.) Wiki abyssite info would imply theory is false. Any input would be nice, screenshot would be very helpful. Thanks.

*edit* just fixed example so theres no confusion

[Rikura]

What would be an MDT set to shoot for on MNK and NIN? I hear 25% with capped Shellra 5 but I don't even know what pieces go to help reach that (only got back to the game less than a month ago)

[Sylvrdragon]

Ok, i apologize if this has been asked before, but we have a bit of a debate going on in my linkshell.

Theory goes: With abyssite of Discernment, if you get triggering message with a certain spell or weaponskill, that weaponskill will not be the one to proc that particular weakness.

example: random LS member gets XX is weak to great katana weaponskills.

Sam1 spams Gekko until they receives message for GK(possibly on first try), despite it being during the monster's WS or spell casting.
Sam2 just uses Kasha only because its most definetly that one.

Anyone encountered scenario like this? Limited testing never disproved it, but a few members swear by it. (screenshot or didnt happen etc,.) Wiki abyssite info would imply theory is false. Any input would be nice, screenshot would be very helpful. Thanks.

I've seen SSs here before of someone proc'ing Discernment with the trigger spell during a "clean" time and not triggering weakness. Granted, it's really hard to tell if it really was clean just from a SS with lag and all that. The explanation if it IS true is pretty simple. Discernment, when it procs, takes precedent over Weakness. Though a person with Discernment can still trigger with the spell on the first try provided Disc decides not to proc on that cast.

[Fievel]

What would be an MDT set to shoot for on MNK and NIN? I hear 25% with capped Shellra 5 but I don't even know what pieces go to help reach that (only got back to the game less than a month ago)

on mnk I wear Avalon Breastplate, Merman Bangles, Merman ringx2, Merman earringx2, Twilight torque
its 24% but if whm has capped shellra V merits it caps you, and allows you to keep capped haste!

[Nightfyre]

What would be an MDT set to shoot for on MNK and NIN? I hear 25% with capped Shellra 5 but I don't even know what pieces go to help reach that (only got back to the game less than a month ago)

MNK can cap with Merman's x4, Twilight, Avalon Breastplate, Denali Wristbands, and Colossus's Mantle for Shell V and can drop one of those items for capped Shellra V while retaining capped haste. Additional MDT would come in the form of Lore (+1) gear if you're soloing or duoing without Shell V. NIN has a bit more trouble; Merman'sx4, Twilight, Colossus's, Denali, Lieutenant's Sash, and augmented MKD hat (MDT-2%) is capped for Shellra V and just under cap for Shell V. Aside from augmented items or swapping weapons I'm not sure how else you'd cap on NIN.

[Mer]

Yea I'm going to have to look up that screenshot, even after purposely screwing up on guaranteed trigger weaponskills (earth crusher, freezebite) never recieved message. Then i'd actually to land it and sure enough it would trigger !!.

Even wrong weaponskills at times didnt give messages, but eventually they would. It was weird. Thanks for the input, I'm just gonna have to keep an eye out for those messages.

[Yugl]

Ok, i apologize if this has been asked before, but we have a bit of a debate going on in my linkshell.

Theory goes: With abyssite of Discernment, if you get triggering message with a certain spell or weaponskill, that weaponskill will not be the one to proc that particular weakness.

example1: random LS member gets XX is weak to great katana weaponskills.
Sam uses gekko accidently during NM's tp move, spell, or whatever, but instantly gets message for GK weakness.
Sam just uses Kasha only because its most definetly not gekko.


Anyone encountered scenario like this? Limited testing never disproved it, but a few members swear by it. (screenshot or didnt happen etc,.) Wiki abyssite info would imply theory is false. Any input would be nice, screenshot would be very helpful. Thanks.

*edit* just fixed example so theres no confusion

Red Lotus (Not Clean) > Fire Elemental WS > Retries. I've had experience that contradicts this.

[Mer]

Red Lotus (Not Clean) > Fire Elemental WS > Retries. I've had experience that contradicts this.

Yea, this is exactly the kind of screenshot i'm looking for. In an entire night of abyssea, i didn't see it. Of course its far less likely since once you use the weaponskill or spell, it will likely trigger, so you can see how annoying this can be to disprove. Unless you repeatedly attempt failure. But that makes people mad. > _>;
Thanks again for the input. :]

[Yugl]

Anyone have experience with the T1 Hydra? We win, but each fight is miserable. We started with DRG/WAR + NIN/WAR + WHM for procs, but soon changed it to RDM NIN WHM. Our last fight was on RDM MNK WAR WHM, which works fine, but it's a slow fight and the WAR cannot tank if the MNK gets one shot by Serpent's Tail.

[Bress]

For blm PDT-, I have Terra staff, Twilight Torque ,Cheviot Cape, Dark Ring(-5 agu) and Jelly Ring. Is there anything else I'm missing that can squeeze the last 5-10% pdt- in somewhere?.

[Yugl]

Darkness Earrings augment up to 2%. They're from the miserable quest at Vunkerl.

[Salmijr]

Anyone have experience with the T1 Hydra? We win, but each fight is miserable. We started with DRG/WAR + NIN/WAR + WHM for procs, but soon changed it to RDM NIN WHM. Our last fight was on RDM MNK WAR WHM, which works fine, but it's a slow fight and the WAR cannot tank if the MNK gets one shot by Serpent's Tail.

If your mnk has all Furtherance/merit abyssites, you shouldnt be getting killed by tail unless your healer is asleep. I think the most I've ever seen tail hit me on mnk, with counterstance up and no shadows, was 2800. Even as taru, my HP is usually 3200+ when I sport VV/RR/GH. Can always go RR/GH/SS for some extra Hp if needed, or buff up your pdt set.

That Being said, I've stopped farming the T1 Hydra, since I care more about the KI than the seals, and hoping for the Alfard KI with just Mnk + whm hasnt been very productive.

[Yugl]

If your mnk has all Furtherance/merit abyssites, you shouldnt be getting killed by tail unless your healer is asleep. I think the most I've ever seen tail hit me on mnk, with counterstance up and no shadows, was 2800. Even as taru, my HP is usually 3200+ when I sport VV/RR/GH. Can always go RR/GH/SS for some extra Hp if needed, or buff up your pdt set.

That Being said, I've stopped farming the T1 Hydra, since I care more about the KI than the seals, and hoping for the Alfard KI with just Mnk + whm hasnt been very productive.

See, that's the problem. If it were me, PDT set + Full abyssites. Not so much with the guy actually on MNK. Also, by your last statement, I assume you can get the pop from gold boxes or you changed your set up?

[Motenten]

I macro ultion mantle for the duration of PC. Outside of that, you're still swinging along with countering, so the att/DA is adding to your overall damage.

With an optimal build, you should be able to use ultion mantle with berserk+RCB+Dia III. Although you can get away with even YCB(RCB helps with zerk down) on most exp mobs.

The question is if the added damage from the mantle on counters outweighs the 3% DA on atheling. With your atma combos I think DA could be doing more, than some of the other atma combos with Apoc and sometimes A&O. Ppl have been testing out the priority on which takes first TA or DA(from reading nothing has been tested reliably yet).

Motenten might be able to spread some more light on that, since iirc he did testing on the ultion mantle.

Ultion Mantle is +10 to base damage for counters.

Given weapon options of:

Str Taipan Fangs +2: +29
Revenant Fists +2: +31
Verethragna 85: +32
Verethragna 90: +35

fStr cap for all of those is 11, except lvl 90 Vere which is 12.

Total base damage assuming capped fStr and up to 2 base damage from skill in gear:

Str Taipan Fangs +2: 84-86
Revenant Fists +2: 86-88
Verethragna 85: 87-89
Verethragna 90: 91-93


On Perfect Counters when wearing AF3 head you also get another +10 or +20 base damage.

So for normal counters, +10 base damage is +10.8% to +11.9% damage. Will play conservative and say 11%.

For Perfect Counters, +10 base damage is 9.7% to 10.6% with the +1 head, 8.8% to 9.6% with the +2 head. So will say 10% and 9% with the +1 and +2 head, respectively.


Starting with the assumption that you have as many counters as normal hits (ie: extremely favorable towards Ultion), can the Atheling compare to ~10% damage increase?

Testing a few different setups using my spreadsheet, and assuming attack isn't capped, the Atheling Mantle provides about a 3.3% overall increase in damage (both direct and indirect from increased weaponskill rates). If attack is capped, it provides about +2% to total damage. //Note: Thats with RR+GH+VV atma; with RR+GH+Apoc, improvement is 2.9%, or 1.5% with capped attack

So, given an equal split between counters and melee, Ultion handily wins.

However, that split won't be equal, so the question becomes, what's the balance in melee hit rates compared to counter hit rates? From the improvement that the Ultion provides, you'd want more than 3 times as many melee hits as counter hits for the Atheling to win out, or more than 5 times as many if attack is capped. //Note: With Apoc atma, that rises to 3.5x and 6.5x.

On the counter side, assuming RR+GH atma, you'll be at around a 75% counter rate, so mob attack rates need to be scaled relative to that. A mnk using GH atma will also tend to have a fairly decent evasion, so perhaps 25% of all attacks won't even have a chance to counter for lower tier NMs.

If base mob delay is 3 seconds, that means that in 48 seconds (16 rounds, no DA) you'd get 9 counters (also assuming not /nin to get the most out of counter potential). With the high multi-attack rate of many NMs, though, you could increase that by 50%, and perhaps even double it. And at the high end you'd have mobs that you'd almost never evade, so could remove evasion from consideration, putting the total as high as 24.

You want 3 to 5 times as many melee hits as those values. The 24 hit value is unlikely to be attack capped, so we can consider it a target of 72. 9 to 18 would mean 27 to 54 when not attack capped, and 45 to 90 when attack capped.

So how many times will you hit within 48 seconds?

If you're averaging 2.4 hits per round (including kicks, which is part of the initial valuation), how many rounds do you need to hit those numbers? Round delay is 330-340 without haste.

Hits Rounds Haste to reach in 48 seconds (330/340 base delay)
27 11.25 22.5% / 24.7%
54 22.50 61.2% / 62.3%
~
45 18.75 53.5% / 54.8%
90 37.50 76.7% / 77.4%
~
72 30.00 71.0% / 71.8%

So if you're not getting hasted, it seems like it could be very easy for the Ultion Mantle to outdo the Atheling. If reaching attack cap you pretty much have to have double Marches to push Atheling into the lead. A high DA-rate mob that never misses you also needs extreme haste for Atheling to win out.

Of course all of these can be drastically altered by simply having slow/elegy on the mob. As the mob's attack speed drops, the haste threshhold for the Atheling to win drops as well.

At this point it becomes extremely difficult to further extrapolate due to not being able to adequately pick a 'default' target to compare against, plus all the secondary interferences in battle. A fast-attacking (unslowable?), multihitting mob is going to heavily favor Ultion, while a slow attacking mob will more easily favor Atheling.

Overall it looks like if you are getting Haste and double Marches, you're almost certainly better off with Atheling. If you're not getting Marches, it's borderline at best, and probably slightly favors Ultion unless the mobs is heavily debuffed. If solo or just generally not getting any haste, Ultion is most likely the better option -- up until you figure that if you're solo you probably can reach a pretty good evade rate, which begins the calculation cycle all over again. Also, if using RR+GH+Apoc, Ultion has a better edge.

Gut feeling: at 50% total haste or less, Ultion is most likely to win (assuming /war). Above 50% total haste it depends more on particular mob behavior.

It's late and I'm tired, so any comments about mistakes I probably made are appreciated.

[RitzCracker]

Does anyone know what the WSC alpha value is at level 90? Apologies if the question has been answered before.