FFXIII-2

[Gokulo]

FFXII and FFXIII would like to have a word with you.

Sure, you still had the young male "lead" in XII, but it was essentially a political story focused on Ashe (an older character, 20's or so) seen through the eyes of that young male.

In XIII they scrapped the young male lead entirely and most of the characters are more adult and responding in fairly expected manners to the situation they're thrown into. Sahz particularly was a good character for an adult to connect with.

I don't think you quite understood what I meant. The characters could all be grandpas, and while it would change how the game is received in a way, the story is what I was talking about. FF is aimed at teenagers and the stories and the rest reflect that. But, I'm not saying they're childish, because they aren't.

[Spira]

i think elcura pretty much summed up what I wanted to say about gfx but better..

as for the story.. its definitely true that FF has not aged with its playerbase and is probably trying to capture more of that younger teenage demographic..
the closest its ever gone with maturing in terms of story is definitely FFXII... more mature characters, political intrigue and legal technicalities... and beyond that, the script was very well written.. with a bit more flavor and strong theatrical flair.

of course, younger fans couldnt really digest all of this.. so it wasn't exactly met with strong fanfare. I think XII on the whole was also marred by its gameplay, which while complex wasn't exactly fun especially from the beginning - the way gambits were obtained sucked and they always came too late to be useful.

XIII doesn't quite have this. the story.. may be a little more mature than your typical PS1 FF... but has very strong pop sensibilities. it's far too tv drama like, with its fake cliffhangers (hi2u "dead" sazh coffin), inconsistent characters, having dramatic events for the sake of having them, and plain speak (which isnt necessarily bad, but it doesnt help).

One comparison I love to use is that FFXII was like watching a theatre play, FFXIII is like watching a teen soap.

[Eaglestrike]

How do you define an adult story?

And what inconsistent characters in XIII?

[miokomioko]

What's not "adult" about XIII is the overused "we are a bunch of unrelated normal people somehow brought together and all given special powers and now we are off to save the world from the bad guys. oh and every single thing you have done and decision you have made was... dun dun dun orchestrated by the bad guy and you are doing everything they wanted! GASP"

[Skidz]

I'm not going to judge 1/2/3 storyline since it was in a time where storylines weren't really developed much but in my opinion,

4 - Good if somewhat basic. Cecil as a main character was pretty interesting and the game had constant plot twists.
5 - Much simpler but solid. A few twists but weaker than 4's on the whole.
6 - Needless to say, very strong.
7 - Very strong. Epic, emotional and although Sephiroth's value as a villain is often very exaggerated, I felt he was an interesting enemy.
8 - It was okay. A bit messy. Ultimecia was a bit wtf.
9 - Necron was a bit wtf but it's forgivable. Strong.
10 - Very strong. Powerful, tragic and epic.
12 - Weak. The delivery I felt was poor and aside from a few climaxes the story was slow and not developed in the way I would have liked. Character development also a weak point.
13 - Good. Not as many plot twists as other FFs but with unique themes as far as the series goes.

I would like to play FFVI, but what's the best system to play on? The PS1 version, or the Gameboy advance version? Also, I know VI was called III in NA, but FFVI is not the same game as FFIII for iPad, is it?

[Scythiroth]

I would like to play FFVI, but what's the best system to play on? The PS1 version, or the Gameboy advance version? Also, I know VI was called III in NA, but FFVI is not the same game as FFIII for iPad, is it?

I think the GBA version is the "best" since it has some added content and some of the major exploits were fixed (which I guess can be seen as good or bad).

[Eaglestrike]

What's not "adult" about XIII is the overused "we are a bunch of unrelated normal people somehow brought together and all given special powers and now we are off to save the world from the bad guys. oh and every single thing you have done and decision you have made was... dun dun dun orchestrated by the bad guy and you are doing everything they wanted! GASP"

Except that's not really how it set out to be:

Lightning + Snow are out to save Serah. Each reacts differently to what went on with Snow taking the "childish" I will do anything, everything will be alright happyface optimism approach and Lightning taking the "I'm going to KILL those motherfuckers!" approach.

Fang + Vanille are caught up in shit and have been there before, they're working on a way to get out of this whole mess.

Hope has no idea wtf he's doing, he just latches on to whatever is close to him because he has nothing else.

Sazh is out to rescue his son.

There is no agreement to 'save the world' by the group until what, the end of chapter 11? Until that point they're each doing what they have prioritized in life. It's not until they get their hand forced and get to know/care about each other do they do the whole "We're going to save the world!" thing.

And please, really? A bad guy that orchestrated it all is a childish thing? Pretty sure the main theme here is free will, which at least breaches into the "young adult" field. And they clearly weren't doing exactly what Bart wanted, he kept showing up for a reason, they weren't listening real well, he had to make sure they knew it was him AND hated him to incite their rage. I might be able to agree the storyline was childish IF it was a big bad guy that orchestrated it all and you were just his instrument to destroy the world FOR him. But in fact you're destroying HIM, which is a bit different.

And you still didn't explain what an adult story even was, which was the question.

[Nevex]

oh and every single thing you have done and decision you have made was... dun dun dun orchestrated by the bad guy and you are doing everything they wanted! GASP"

Overused or not, this is how a good villain works. Just like a female lead needs not to be a fat and ugly cow, a good villain needs to have a plan. Even those villains with no personality whatsoever like Lavos had one and things went the way it wanted.

[Aevis]

was it just me or was the whole ff13 storyline just lots of cs showing: "noo i (we) can't do that boohoo" - " yes we can if we just stick together, booyaah!" rinse and repeat? don't get me wrong, i liked the basic story (brandmarked fugitive must rescue sister/world) and the background of the crystal worlds. however, especially towards the end, i swear every single cs was about someone having a nervous breakdown just to be told that he/she can doo eeeet (again)!

[Kurokikaze]

I think the GBA version is the "best" since it has some added content and some of the major exploits were fixed (which I guess can be seen as good or bad).

^ this. Download the GBA ROM and patch it with the sound patch that makes all the sounds better quality versions of the SNES version.

Dragon's Den and Soul Shrine is fucking boss.

[Gokulo]

And you still didn't explain what an adult story even was, which was the question.

FF will never show murder, sex, rape, drugs, violence, sadism, serious moral problems and issues in all their full glory - everything is always simpler, toned-down, "nicer" and some issues are never touched up in their stories.

About VI: aren't they remaking it once again? For PSP or PSN now I think? Maybe it's worth the wait.

[Kaslo]

FF will never show murder

Aeris/Aerith would like to have a word with you, along with every citizen of Doma.

[Gokulo]

Read my whole sentence. We didn't even see a drop of blood and that's exactly what I referred to when talking about toned-down presentation.

[Elcura]

We didn't even see a drop of blood and that's exactly what I referred to when talking about toned-down presentation.

No matter how toned down it is, a sword through the chest is a sword through the chest.

Games can either emphasize the blood/gore or choose not too. In the end, you don't need to see blood to know someone has been murdered, you don't need to see the needle to know someone is doing drugs etc. Indeed, it's as you say, presentation. But it's the theme/content that makes something adult, presentation helps, but it isn't the whole piece to the puzzle.

[Eaglestrike]

FF will never show murder, sex, rape, drugs, violence, sadism, serious moral problems and issues in all their full glory - everything is always simpler, toned-down, "nicer" and some issues are never touched up in their stories.

About VI: aren't they remaking it once again? For PSP or PSN now I think? Maybe it's worth the wait.

So to be adult you have to show blood and tits? Really?

Half the point in XIII was about media manipulation. Cocoon had no idea the atrocities that were being committed, all under the notion of "saving Cocoon". Interesting, seeing how we in the US have a government that seems to have a very similar mindset. I mean Cocoon's entire basis and fundamental beliefs were based off of lies perpetuated by this government. You really think that says nothing about anything in the real world?

Was the sex scene and Dr. Manhattan's penis necessary to consider Watchmen an adult storyline? No, they were pretty much unnecessary and may have even taken away from the plot in some ways.

And instances of some of these things in FF:

FF7- Avalanche is a terrorist organization, blowing up reactors.
Dyne jumped off a cliff, serious moral problem(that entire scene)? I'd vote yes.

FFX, and fuck you for making me bring up the story/characters of X since I hated it, but it tackles self-sacrifice for the greater good.

FFXII starts off with murder and is a story full of the stronger taking advantage of the weak, including dropping nukes and completely destroying entire nations. Is that "toned down"? What about the ruins of Nabudis?

FFXIII - Hope knifes Snow. Truly a children's tale.

[Gokulo]

No matter how toned down it is, a sword through the chest is a sword through the chest.

Games can either emphasize the blood/gore or choose not too. In the end, you don't need to see blood to know someone has been murdered, you don't need to see the needle to know someone is doing drugs etc. Indeed, it's as you say, presentation. But it's the theme/content that makes something adult, presentation helps, but it isn't the whole piece to the puzzle.

True, I guess I went in a wrong direction with that.

@Eaglestrike - yes, you do bring good and interesting examples, but if you look good enough, you will find similar or even stronger stuff in a lot of teenage shows/games and so on - I had to read books describing worse stuff in primary school. And I'm also not negating the value of that. The original point was that most of us has outgrown FF and the stories and characters won't feel as good and engaging to most of us like they did when we first started playing. And the whole "FF is a series aimed at teenagers" doesn't come from me, these are S-E words.

[Eaglestrike]

True, I guess I went in a wrong direction with that.

@Eaglestrike - yes, you do bring good and interesting examples, but if you look good enough, you will find similar or even stronger stuff in a lot of teenage shows/games and so on - I had to read books describing worse stuff in primary school. And I'm also not negating the value of that. The original point was that most of us has outgrown FF and the stories and characters won't feel as good and engaging to most of us like they did when we first started playing. And the whole "FF is a series aimed at teenagers" doesn't come from me, these are S-E words.

That's like saying you can't enjoy Harry Potter because it's aimed at teenagers. It's still a pretty enjoyable series.

[Gokulo]

You can enjoy it, I still enjoy Harry Potter (well, I haven't read it in a while, but I'm sure I would), but, lets assume, were I to read it for the first time now I'm sure I would feel it was as good as I did when I was younger - and that's what I think Lovex and a lot of other players feel < where my original comment came up.

I'm not sure, but I feel you're assuming I'm saying FF stories are childish and uninteresting. And that's not the case. What I was trying to say is that because of the way how the stories are written and presented, and the content included in them, they will react stronger with a certain audience, and the other, while still enjoying it, will not find it as powerful.

[Raen Ryong]

Interestingly enough, these parts of the game suffered largely due to SE's meddling, forcing the focus of the story away from awesome characters like Basch and more onto less interesting sideshows like Vaan.

I had hope that he would become less of a sideshow Penelo was kinda doomed from the start however. I liked Vaan's character until... I can never remember the name of the village, Jehara? When he talks to Ashe in the middle of the night? That is the moment for me when the storyline essentially faded away (or the character development at the very least).

was it just me or was the whole ff13 storyline just lots of cs showing: "noo i (we) can't do that boohoo" - " yes we can if we just stick together, booyaah!" rinse and repeat? don't get me wrong, i liked the basic story (brandmarked fugitive must rescue sister/world) and the background of the crystal worlds. however, especially towards the end, i swear every single cs was about someone having a nervous breakdown just to be told that he/she can doo eeeet (again)!

Not many. It's a perfectly human reaction to what seem like an utterly hopeless chain of events, especially for younger characters like Hope/Vanille. Furthermore they were all opposing Bart without a single clue wtf to do and this must be kinda stressful.

[Eaglestrike]

You can enjoy it, I still enjoy Harry Potter (well, I haven't read it in a while, but I'm sure I would), but, lets assume, were I to read it for the first time now I'm sure I would feel it was as good as I did when I was younger - and that's what I think Lovex and a lot of other players feel < where my original comment came up.

I'm not sure, but I feel you're assuming I'm saying FF stories are childish and uninteresting. And that's not the case. What I was trying to say is that because of the way how the stories are written and presented, and the content included in them, they will react stronger with a certain audience, and the other, while still enjoying it, will not find it as powerful.

Well, I'm not sure if I disagree with you or think you're wrong or if we just have different opinions...

One of the major complaints people always bring up with XII shows to me they totally didn't 'get' the story, it was too "above" them and they didn't understand it at all. And I think XIII was similar in that regard, though probably not quite to that level. So it's weird to me to hear someone saying something in a way opposite of that.

@Raen Ryong - Not to mention the entire story happens over the course of a few days, weeks at absolute most. They didn't have time to unwind or think about things in any manner like a normal human might.