FFXIII-2

[miokomioko]

FF7 was notably chock-full of non-intrusive but potentially beneficial QTEs with very little penalties.

FF8 was absolutely horrible in that respect. As if the R1 gunblade timing thing (lolMario RPG) and mind-numbing magic/GF drawing was bad enough... then they made you mash your thumb raw every time you summoned a Guardian Force. Those things made an already mediocre game so much worse to me.

[Elcura]

I don't remember these FF7 QTEs, remind me again?

[Alkar]

I don't remember these FF7 QTEs, remind me again?

Most minigames like squats? Nothing close to FF8's square mashing but it's a start.

[orson]

I don't remember these FF7 QTEs, remind me again?

Guessing he's referring to the mini games through out. I don't know if I'd use QTE to discribe stuff like ff8's gunblade trigger as a QTE maybe the predecessor of them though.

[miokomioko]

These come to mind~

http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__...VII_Squats.png
http://img.youtube.com/vi/9Hlxc2lwWoc/0.jpg
http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__...II_Pitfall.png
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v428/Achnod/ff7.bmp

I was comparing their minor impact on the game and lack of repetition in comparison to FF8's monotonous button-mashing shit. More along the lines of how FF6's Serpent Trench event was a fun "one-off" event that didn't give you a tangible feeling of how much you lost out on.

I was saying FF6 did it well, FF7 did it really well, and FF8 did it terribly.

[Niiro]

The FF7 examples are definitely more mini-games than QTEs. Each one was unique and would require you to execute different actions in different ways.

When I think of QTE I think of a continuous mechanic that's consistent/repeated much in the same fashion throughout the game. Stuff like GoW finishers or special condition melee attacks in various RE games. As mentioned most FF8 limits were QTEs as well as boosting GFs (but who actually summoned GFs anyway).

[Elcura]

The FF7 examples are definitely more mini-games than QTEs. Each one was unique and would require you to execute different actions in different ways.

When I think of QTE I think of a continuous mechanic that's consistent/repeated much in the same fashion throughout the game. Stuff like GoW finishers or special condition melee attacks in various RE games. As mentioned most FF8 limits were QTEs as well as boosting GFs (but who actually summoned GFs anyway).

This is more what I was thinking. The best kind of QTE isn't really a QTE at all. It's a lazy mechanic, and when you put work in to make it interesting it stops being QTE and starts being some what substantial.

[Correction]

FF7 was notably chock-full of non-intrusive but potentially beneficial QTEs with very little penalties.

I don't remember QTEs in FF7. Are you talking about the bitchslap game after Sapphire weapon busted Tifa out of the gas chamber, Cloud's formation marching game, stuff like that? Or the Golden Saucer arcade of minigames?

Edit: dang why did this post take so long to show up?

[miokomioko]

QTEs are just that... a fast-response button-pressing or button-sequence event. They aren't necessarily required to be repetitious to be considered "QTE." Which is why I felt FF7 did them well: they didn't place them into the basic gameplay. They were on the sidelines as an occasional bonus, as they should be.

[Elcura]

QTEs are defined mostly by prompts. A fully scripted sequence of events that takes interactivity to a minimum by telling the player when they can play and what they have to press to play. QTEs aren't mini-games after all, since a mini-game still allows for more interactivity and player input.

[miokomioko]

Push the correct buttons in (prompted) order and do it quickly as possible = does not allow interactivity... that's just what the squats, the north corel train, the falling from the mt. corel tracks, and the Junon parade were (probably amongst others). They were unavoidable events, prompted with button-mashing and/or sequence inputting. They might be considered "mini-games" as well but they still count clearly as QTEs to me.

When I think of FF7 "mini-games," I'm thinking motorcycles, snowboarding, Fort Condor, Chocobo Racing, etc.

Mashing a single button for Boost or timing R1 for Squall's Gunblade is terrible implementation either way. I hope we can all agree on that.

[Elcura]

Push the correct buttons in (prompted) order and do it quickly as possible = does not allow interactivity... that's just what the squats, the north corel train, the falling from the mt. corel tracks, and the Junon parade were (probably amongst others). They were unavoidable events, prompted with button-mashing and/or sequence inputting. They might be considered "min-games" as well but they still count clearly as QTEs to me.

They tell you how to do the squats, they don't tell you when. If you wanted, you could do no squats at all, you could do 1, you could do 5. Compare that with regular QTEs, you have control over what you see, over whether Cloud squats or not. The parade you're told what to do, a briefing, you're told how to do it, and what to look out for. You can do whatever you want during the parade, you can press the buttons early, late, or not at all, you can press the wrong button and get a result and you can do it until the event is over.

Being unavoidable isn't what makes a QTE, it's the scripted sequence of events. The parade can't script what a player does every time, when they do it, or if they even do it. A normal QTE can script everything. Not just the beginning or the end results. I don't remember the train specifically or the corel tracks, but if the train is what I'm thinking of, the control is simply in the battles you fight and your performance in them, they can't script that.

[miokomioko]

You made up your own very specific definition of QTE while my definition is more general. Thus, we are at an impasse.

The runaway Corel train event ends with mashing alternating Up+Triangle > Down+Circle quickly enough to stop the train. The train either stops or it crashes (Scripted!).
The Mt. Corel track pitfalls prompt mashing either of two button to drift over towards a treasure when you fall. You either get loot or you don't (Scripted?).

Every result is scripted to an extent (Getting into the Don's bedroom or not via the squat game) so I don't think you can be as technical as you are being when talking about what constitutes a Quick-Time Event.

[Niiro]

The discussion is just semantics at this point.

Calling them whatever you want, the point is "QTE"s are best when they're unique, not recycled, and have a certain amount of depth to them. Enough for them to be interesting and fun, but not so much that you waste time learning a whole new game mechanic for just one sequence.

I would also say that performance or failure of a QTE/mini-game should never result in a game over as well.

"Press X to not die"* are the worst kind.

*I think I'm stealing this phrase from a ZP video.

[Nevex]

Why didn't anyone ever complain about QTEs until FFXIII-2?
I don't remember anyone having a problem with their inclusion in any SE game (or RPG for that matter), heck I didn't even know they were called that way before I read it in this thread.
I see them as a standard feature like jumping in plataforms and shooting in FPS games, really.
I have a feeling that it's just a scapegoat to criticize the game about something before it's even released.

[Kaslo]

FF7 was notably chock-full of non-intrusive but potentially beneficial QTEs with very little penalties.

FF8 was absolutely horrible in that respect. As if the R1 gunblade timing thing (lolMario RPG) and mind-numbing magic/GF drawing was bad enough... then they made you mash your thumb raw every time you summoned a Guardian Force. Those things made an already mediocre game so much worse to me.

To be fair, Mario's timed attacks were well done. Gunblade less so, worse than Legend of the Dragoon.

[Correction]

Why didn't anyone ever complain about QTEs until FFXIII-2?

People complained about the GF boost system in VIII.
People complained about the QTEs in Kingdom Hearts
I don't remember having a lot of fun mastering Tidus'/Auron's overdrives in FFX, but since I played the import I wasn't part of the larger conversation to hear what others thought of them.

[Elcura]

You made up your own very specific definition of QTE while my definition is more general. Thus, we are at an impasse.

It's not that specific at all. Is the event scripted? If yes, then QTE, if no, then not QTE. For the sake of argument, it's important to clearly define what a QTE is, which is a fully scripted event. What does that mean exactly? It means that everything, not just the result, is scripted. It means the game tells you what to press and when to press it. The activity itself is scripted, the game play is scripted, and prompted. It's not even that subtle.

The squats in FF7 weren't prompts and they weren't timed. You're given freedom in this activity to perform as you please, when you please. The Parade is the exact same thing. They can't script you falling behind, catching up and syncing with the rest of the soldiers, they can't script you getting in line perfectly then fucking up because you can't keep a simple rhythm. It doesn't tell you or force you to press a button, it doesn't tell you how many times to press the button or how often, it doesn't tell you that movement isn't allowed, etc. Your performance isn't due solely to reactionary button presses when prompted.

The train either stops or it crashes (Scripted!).
You either get loot or you don't (Scripted?).

I kinda remember these events but not really. Regardless, the result isn't the issue here, since every mechanic brings a result of some kind, even QTEs. The train and treasure sound like QTEs, but I can't remember enough to refute or argue it in any case, so I'll move on. But the activity sounds scripted (press x not to fall, you fell, press right + x to move, DO IT NOW, QUICKLY).

Every result is scripted to an extent (Getting into the Don's bedroom or not via the squat game) so I don't think you can be as technical as you are being when talking about what constitutes a Quick-Time Event.

Like I said before, the result isn't important in defining a QTE. It's what you do during the event that matters.

[Kurokikaze]

Those were all minigame with a potential alternative in the story. Don't think you can really call them QTEs.

I'm speaking of FFVII only. FFVIIIs were indeed QTE. Also, who the fuck used GFs?

[Xno Kappa]

Those were all minigame with a potential alternative in the story. Don't think you can really call them QTEs.

I'm speaking of FFVII only. FFVIIIs were indeed QTE. Also, who the fuck used GFs?

You use them once to see a pretty bad ass five minute animation duh. Doomtrain ftw.