Letter from the Producer, I (1/21/2010)

[Kaelan?]

There's a few flaws in your logic, although I see your point.

B) The issue of content is irrelevant as it pertains to specs. Content, or lack thereof, is provided by SE. SE isn't giving us a lot of content. That's SE's problem, not a problem of specs. I'd argue that there'd be far more "meat" in the game, in terms of incentives to XP or gain experience through quests/ect. if people simply had a bigger incentive to actually level. Being able to amplify and increase the power of their individual classes seems to be a great incentive to get people out there fighting, even if its still under the shitty guildelve system.

The major issue is content. SE is pathetic when it comes to content. They haven't shown much content, and there's literally no fluff in this game to keep anyone busy. I doubt we'd see talent trees or anything of the like, but I garuntee that it would help flesh out the game, or at the very least, provide people more incentives to level up than "I want to be max for when content starts coming" like most DoW classes are saying now.

I don't think you got the point I was making at the end about content. What I'm saying is that specs wouldn't change the situation we're in right now or solve any existing problems.

What I'm trying to point out is that the root of the current problems with the abilities has to do with the content (the amount and specific behavior of abilities) rather than the system (the way abilities are obtained and used in general). Adopting a system that had a different approach to achieve the same goal wouldn't really address the problem or make it any less of an issue. It would just be a different way to be in the same situation.

Without content, specs still have the same problems. With content, the current system is capable of bringing the same benefits as (and to some extent, more than) specs do. The issue isn't that we don't have specs or talent trees or other useful ways to get, equip and use abilities - it's that we just don't have that much in terms or abilities, spells and traits in the first place.

I do agree that either way there's just absolutely no incentive to level right now and they really need to work on that. I'd say that, besides skills/traits, we really need better gear to aim for. The existing gear has practically no cool/unique/useful things on it (Haste/DA/TA/enhancing particular abilities/cure potency/added effects just to name a handful from FFXI off the top of my head). In general there's just a lack of goals for players to set for themselves to get exited about.

[Elrina]

I hope to god you're not going to say this was all due to no classic jobs. Since until this point I never seen people complain one bit about the jobs.

FFXIV sucked for a various amount of reasons:

-Crappy UI/controls
-Lack of content
-EXP gain is so slow the only effective way to get EXP is finding a small group of people to do leves with
-Lackluster world and story
-Things that should be client side are server side, causing seconds of lag for a lot of crap
-Horrible economy
-Horrible player interaction

That pretty much sums up the major complaints, not once about classic jobs.

From what I understand, people gave the current (class) system a chance, and class definition was a pretty big complaint after people had some experience with the classes as they are. I'm not saying that their "names" are to blame (although they definitely don't help), but they definitely weren't put together well, especially when balancing them against the rest of the game.

[Fawkes]

I hope to god you're not going to say this was all due to no classic jobs. Since until this point I never seen people complain one bit about the jobs.

FFXIV sucked for a various amount of reasons:

-Crappy UI/controls
-Lack of content
-EXP gain is so slow the only effective way to get EXP is finding a small group of people to do leves with
-Lackluster world and story
-Things that should be client side are server side, causing seconds of lag for a lot of crap
-Horrible economy
-Horrible player interaction

That pretty much sums up the major complaints, not once about classic jobs.

It's more likely that lack of classic FF jobs would be a complaint of people who were turned off prior to it's release, but even then probably not the biggest reason. But just because something isn't the biggest flaw with the game doesn't mean it should be left alone. They can't just try to make the game what the people playing it right now want it to be, they have to also try to get back players they've lost. Just changing the names isn't going to do that, but it's stepping in that direction.

[Spider-Dan]

I am in utter amazement that we can get 10 pages into an argument about how Final Fantasy Online players Absolutely Will Not Stand For Speccing... in a forum famous for high-level Final Fantasy XI discussion... without A SINGLE PERSON mentioning the words "merit points."

What, exactly, did you think the merit point system was? Were you completely confused and frustrated as to why you can't merit everything to max?

[Kaelan?]

Edit: I can't read

I think the discussion stopped being about that like 5 pages ago

[Spider-Dan]

You don't see how an extremely popular speccing system in the previous FF Online is relevant to a discussion about whether or not FF Online players will tolerate speccing systems?

Will we next be arguing about whether or not FF Online players will tolerate a system in which you raise your own mount?

[Elrina]

Will we next be arguing about whether or not FF Online players will tolerate a system in which you raise your own mount?

Nah, but we already briefly hit upon whether or not it's ok to actually summon said mount at will or if we need to rent the chocobos and have limits placed upon how often we can summon our own.

(I was on the side saying we should be able to summon them at will.)

[Fawkes]

I thought we were still arguing about jumping.

[Corrderio]

From what I understand, people gave the current (class) system a chance, and class definition was a pretty big complaint after people had some experience with the classes as they are. I'm not saying that their "names" are to blame (although they definitely don't help), but they definitely weren't put together well, especially when balancing them against the rest of the game.

I'll admit that info on classes was something to be desired and the battle system is a bit lackluster, but then again I haven't played a MMO with an interesting combat system. Some tweeks would be fine however I do enjoy how you can mix/match abilities to customize your character. The only thing I can think of I want changed is a way to trigger something to auto-attack so I can say something during combat if needed.

[Arximiro]

Yeah auto-attack in some form is badly needed. Having to type anything forces you to completely stop fighting. This can be solved with Vent, but no one is doing vent for a fucking PUG, Behest, or random Leve party.

[Corrderio]

Another thing I'm wondering about with maps if he'll allow us to mark our maps in the future. I kind of hope he'd go with a system similar to Phantom Hourglass where I could literally write on the map with my mouse. Would be nice marking dead ends in the Mun-Tuy Cellars and Nanawa Mines, or other hints (Shortcuts, spawn areas, etc.)

[Lucavi]

I don't think you got the point I was making at the end about content. What I'm saying is that specs wouldn't change the situation we're in right now or solve any existing problems.

What I'm trying to point out is that the root of the current problems with the abilities has to do with the content (the amount and specific behavior of abilities) rather than the system (the way abilities are obtained and used in general). Adopting a system that had a different approach to achieve the same goal wouldn't really address the problem or make it any less of an issue. It would just be a different way to be in the same situation.

Without content, specs still have the same problems. With content, the current system is capable of bringing the same benefits as (and to some extent, more than) specs do. The issue isn't that we don't have specs or talent trees or other useful ways to get, equip and use abilities - it's that we just don't have that much in terms or abilities, spells and traits in the first place.

I do agree that either way there's just absolutely no incentive to level right now and they really need to work on that. I'd say that, besides skills/traits, we really need better gear to aim for. The existing gear has practically no cool/unique/useful things on it (Haste/DA/TA/enhancing particular abilities/cure potency/added effects just to name a handful from FFXI off the top of my head). In general there's just a lack of goals for players to set for themselves to get exited about.

Fair enough, but even with more content, you're going to run into the same problem once you hit the cap. Gear won't solve it unless they put set bonuses on the gear that gives traits for abilities. Its not really a gear issue. Combat is boring, and one of the biggest reasons is because many of the abilities not only look uninspiring, but pack little punch.

Cure I, II, III? What's the difference? Amount healed? Why not streamline them, buff cures as you increase in level or gear up, and swap those extra spells with new ones. Big heal that takes a long time to cast and costs lots of MP. Little heal that heals fast. Right now, the only reason there's cure I, II, and III is because that's how its always been done. Bland.

We'll see what they do, but I'd look forward to playing my lancer knowing that I could spec into a lot more fully offensive moves if I choose, or into a lot more defensive or support moves, rather than this "generic recycled ability every 2 levels with a brand new one every 8 or so levels for a grand total of maybe 9 applicable lancer abilities by 50". Even -if- I start swapping from other jobs, it doesn't make my lancer feel any more complete, just a hodgepodge mix of abilities here and there. Its not a bad system, but it doesn't lend itself well to a game that has such boring and uninspired combat.

@Spider: If they're bringing merits back, I'd hope for not only more choices, but the ability to dig into those specs a little earlier in the game. I would have liked to have been able to merit into jump on Drg around 30-50, not waiting till 75 to shave 8-12 seconds off. They'd also have to rework the meritable stats, because +10str isn't going to do very much this go 'round.

[Elrina]

Don't want merits back god, they worked for XI but they can do so much better than that. He was using it as an example, not saying they should be brought back, and I'd rather have proper talent trees and different specs added now while they're actually overhauling shit than FFXI merits back.

Not even saying that's what I want, not getting into that whole argument when I don't give a shit either way, just saying.

[Lucavi]

Not really a fan, given how limited they were (only addressing about 5 moves + stats). I'd like to see additional effects; dots on spells on a crit, or greatly reduced cast time on spells, or storable charges for instant abilities, ect.

They can do better.

[Charismatic]

Of course it's not as if they couldn't do better while still using merits, of course.
But I'd still rather they went about it a different way. (I didn't enjoy meriting)

[Alkar]

You don't see how an extremely popular speccing system in the previous FF Online is relevant to a discussion about whether or not FF Online players will tolerate speccing systems?

Will we next be arguing about whether or not FF Online players will tolerate a system in which you raise your own mount?

Merits don't completely change your class focus. Sure I can decide to pick one ability over another or a spell that I think will help me more but in the end a BLM will still be nuking and a WHM will still be curing. Compared to other MMOs merits are simply extras that you need to work for and that's why it's something that doesn't bother me that much.
Traditional skill trees in FF? No, thanks. Why throw away the best point this and FFXI's class system have? Why limit people like that?
Freedom of choice is and should always remain the main point in online FF games. I should be able to switch jobs if I want to and if I'm playing a class that can do many things at once (RDM,SCH,etc.) I don't want to be forced to choose a path and never look back.
If you guys want to limit yourselves play another MMO, online FF games should keep this part of the system as it is.
It's funny how you guys keep pointing fingers at those that don't want to accept change (according to you) and yet you want this to turn into WoW #2.
I have faith that SE will get the good parts of WoW or any other MMO and implement it into this game but skill trees are not that part.

[Riposte]

Not sure what you mean. Switch second wind's name back to chakra, and seismic shock to air render. Now pugilist is the textbook final fantasy monk.

Air render is a generic name which can apply to anything ever, but chakra or ki doesn't make sense in most settings where the Monk archetype appears in. It is the textbook monk(final fantasy lol) that's fucked up. Why is there a kung-fu spiritual fighter in Europe? Moreover why doesn't everyone use chakra powers assuming they don't already cast magic? What the hell is a Fighter doing when he marches toward level cap if not enhancing his body and reflexes to the point of supernatural eastern mysticism? Now many settings try to build around adapting the Monk because fanboys usually want it. It has been a mainstay since 1e and most CRPGs are based on Dungeon and Dragons.


Now, all of this applies to Final Fantasy too of course. FF classes are not original and are just cheap-copypasta of DnD tropes. This needs to be repeated because it is so hard for some people to grasp: there is nothing special about final fantasy jobs, they are as "bland" as any World of Warcraft or Dragon Age: Origin class let alone the ones found in XIV(with a few exceptions like Blue Mage, which appeared later on in the series and are far less iconic anyway). Any "uniqueness" comes from poor translations, letter/character limits, and the inability to realize DnD/fantasy mechanics in crazy-abstract jrpg combat(on weak consoles). Obviously this kind of "uniqueness" is very shallow. Black Mage - Wizard. White Mage - Priest(/Cleric, right down to the hammer lol). Fighter - Fighter. Paladin - Paladin. Monk - Monk. Thief - Thief(/Rogue). Consider that a Thief steals herbs and organs(wtf?) from wildlife in combat because he cannot pick-pocket a document from a government official on the street in order to advance the adventure-plot. Even the fucking Ninja is mostly based on Oriental Adventures. Now of course there is the nostalgia factor. A certain "flavor" for old-school, despite it all being born out of software inadequacy(and a little engrish inadequacy, I'm sure). There is nothing wrong with wanting this to a degree. But there comes to a point where this reverence for limitations and poor adaptions becomes autism. Like a retard who sees the world in terms of beeps and boops and space invader enemies and Sonic the Hedgehog backgrounds. If you don't see transparent unoriginality you either fail to understand fantasy archetypes(which you can still enjoy and love) or your head is fucked up.

What makes the themes of FFXIV's classes just better is that they are neatly integrated into the setting. You can call them bland for whatever reason you feel like it, but they are much better coordinated into the setting than what we saw in XI(and most videogames in general). Not only that, but even the multiclass system makes sense. Classes are not weird isolated jobs of varying degrees of specification(eg Warrior vs Puppetmaster, the inconsistency of White Mage in the setting), they are fighting styles - disciplines. The schools(which is an upgrade from an odd NPC or organization(again, inconsistent) found in artifact quests) you train in are apart of the setting and each has their own flavor. This flavor is also handled better in most cases, there isn't something ridiculous like Dragoon as of yet - an order of dying dragon-slaying knights, which in your case train pet dragons? Why are these the guys hogging Jump(instead of Polearm users in general or the specific kind of polearm style available to you)?

Beyond mixing stuff, each weapon(your class) still has its primary focus(eg Axes are about stationary cone-shaped aoes). If there is ever is a need to make classes more standout amongst each other, you just improve on what they already do uniquely and then you create more encounters around that. Also I believe the "uniqueness" of XI jobs is being overstated, mainly when we concern melee. I don't understand the obsession with limiting things. Being Bruce Lee kicks ass. But what about the Dragoon armor?! Well fucking add it to a boss or preorder bonus to some SE game and have it give bonuses to "Jump", "vs Dragons", Optimal Class LNC, and so on. There are a thousand different ways to grant fanservice(just look at all the extremely popular FFs without any job systems).

You either put in fanboybait "bland" jobs which crudely fit into a setting with little concern for theme or you use "bland" classes which fit in the setting to the point you don't know which was created first. Can we consider the advantage of the latter being more fresher interpretations on this "blandness"? As if the out-of-place Monk from the Far East is less bland than the Ul'dah-specific Pugilist who trains in a gambling hall and plays dirty. Even the name is better.

Overall class themes are not very important in videogames(much less scrutiny than RPGs after all), but it is ridiculous to assume Eorzea's classes are not a better fit(and that having classes which fit the setting isn't better). It is also a crazy bastardization to go back and change this shit lol. We'll see how this goes. Who knows it might enhance the flavor if they do it in a way which isn't offense to the current setting. (Hell, this all could just be set up for a "prestige job system".)

[Spider-Dan]

Merits don't completely change your class focus.

Of course they don't; changing your job changes your entire focus, so there's no need to "completely change your focus" with merits. In a game where you can't change classes on the fly (i.e. every other MMO), spec trees are the closest thing you can get to fulfilling multiple rolls without logging and switching to another character. Put another way: the goal of speccing in WoW is accomplished by the job change menu in FFXI (and the Armoury system in XIV), with XI's merits serving to further specialize within classes.

Given all that, no one expects that an XIV spec-equivalent would result in Archers becoming main healers, or Gladiators becoming ranged AoE nukers. If you want to play something completely different, change your weapon, but if you want to specialize in a nuking CNJ vs. a buffing CNJ vs. a healing CNJ, specs/merits are a reasonable way to allow players to excel in one aspect of their class.

[Lucavi]

Beyond mixing stuff, each weapon(your class) still has its primary focus(eg Axes are about stationary cone-shaped aoes). If there is ever is a need to make classes more standout amongst each other, you just improve on what they already do uniquely and then you create more encounters around that. Also I believe the "uniqueness" of XI jobs is being overstated, mainly when we concern melee. I don't understand the obsession with limiting things. Being Bruce Lee kicks ass. But what about the Dragoon armor?! Well fucking add it to a boss or preorder bonus to some SE game and have it give bonuses to "Jump", "vs Dragons", Optimal Class LNC, and so on. There are a thousand different ways to grant fanservice(just look at all the extremely popular FFs without any job systems).

I'd agree with this, but XIV doesn't do this well, and SE hasn't had a history of doing this well at all. We'll see what they'll do to further distinguish classes from one another. Right now with the droll pace of combat, a few of the classes seem very homogenized.

[Riposte]

One thing they can do is step away from many vs 1 fights. I think they want to do this(they said so, anyway). If you are only fighting one target then the difference between axes and polearms become less obvious.

EDIT: So basically the fact we can only attack one "group" of monsters at time, which means one monster at a time outside leves and inside leves/behest if two groups are standing next to each other, is an affront to everything classes are about.