Letter from the Producer, I (1/21/2010)

[Selamis]

imo hate system is one of the underlying problems that make combat such a nightmare and hinders strategic combat

I honestly haven't partied outside of a random pug behest last night with 2 other people in retail yet....have they fixed hate at all? I remember in beta being a level 6 archer and ripping hate from someone that was higher level than me, maybe 10 or 11 maurader, with just two shots.

[Hyan]

Well, TLR's director is working on this game. Something good may come out of that.

[Alkar]

Your logic is flawed in so many ways.

No my logic isn't flawed. Explain to me how having access to multiple jobs that do different things is worse than having skill trees to specialize one job in one path.
FFXI jobs weren't unique enough for you?

[Alderaan]

A lot.

How? How exactly can combat be complex by restricting freedom of movement? All you're doing is limiting NM/boss mechanics to tank and spank or standing on the sides.

I do agree that if the update doesn't have at least a couple thousand quests then they shouldn't even bother. Those take time to write if they're not half asses, which is probably the main concern as i can't see how they're not going to be.

[Lucavi]

No my logic isn't flawed. Explain to me how having access to multiple jobs that do different things is worse than having skill trees to specialize one job in one path.
FFXI jobs weren't unique enough for you?

They weren't fleshed out enough for me. Warrior had essentially 2 attack buffs, a provoke and a defense buff for years and years. Even if you factor in weaponskills (which, for the most part, aren't unique to a job), that's not exactly a lot of content, even if the warrior "plays" different from, say, a Dragoon, who is all but forced to use a Lance, while the warrior can use swords/axes.

Much of my complaints, however, stem from a combination of a simplistic approach when it came to designing the combat system and the abilities a player could use to manipulate the flow of combat. Warriors had no "traditional" warrior abilities, such a charging into combat, sending opponents running in fear, crippling the body of an opponent (warriors should have had a bind ability of some kind), or any real abilities to alter the flow of combat outside of ripping hate off of a softer target. Much (if not all) of this was so as not to draw attention to the fact that XI consisted of largely standing around a target, completely immobile, whacking away at it; just like Everquest.

Gladiator has a great chance to separate itself from the "Traditional" warrior archetype associated with Final Fantasy and Square. SE really isn't doing a good job at all of accomplishing this, and it seems that it isn't their goal at all now, as evidenced by the fact that they're talking about turning Glad into Warrior. This saddens me. I'm right in the same boat as BRP in terms of XIV being able to stand on its own two feet by not copy-pasting everything from the traditional FF handbook, but so it goes.

TLDR: Make more moves and abilities for each class. XI had far too little for far too long, and XIV needs to do a lot more with either the classes or the combat system as a whole if they want to be able to match wits with some of the newer games on the horizon. XIV's system leaves much to be desired, and stiff animations and an archaic target-and-lock system aren't the entire problem.

[Thiefami]

I think it has been proven various times that this is false. Depends what kind of specialization we're talking about of course- specialization of roles? Fuck no. Specialization as in "different ways to accomplish the same results"? Sure.

Of course different ways to accomplish variably the same things. Again, THIS IS NOT AN ISSUE with a buffet style skillset that xiv has. So why the fuck are people so against this? Pigeonholing typically occurs on the playerbase side not the mechanic side, but I guess we can keep this fucked up boring vanilla current class system because that seems to be working oh so well for SE at the moment.

[Toth]

In regards to my question, it's been very difficult getting ANY people to link with as the populations are so low. You sound like you guys have a good ls but that is far, far from the norm in this game atm.

[millionsknives]

BG forum consensus:

Game released: "Give us a jump!" *
Now: "wtf we don't want jump." **

* Majority of the playerbase who've subsequently left XIV and no longer check XIV forums.
** Faggots who were dead set against jumping in the first place and the few left playing & checking XIV forums.

Take that into account SE~

[Lucavi]

What about the third group: the ones that didn't care for or against jump, but simply didn't want to have to get stuck on 2-inch changes in terrain?

[Spider-Dan]

Once again merits meant nothing in FFXI. As a RDM you can live without tier 2 merits and any RDM with half a brain would pick Slow II and Paralyze II over anything else. Bio III if soloing or want a potent DoT.

LOL. So "every RDM" should pick Slow II and Paralyze II, unless they want something that is completely different and necessarily exclusive of maxing those two, in which case they shouldn't. You sure proved me wrong!

And please, spare me with the "RDM/SCH can just use Phalanx" garbage. You know quite well what I was talking about when I cited Phalanx2; I'm talking about the 8-year era of the game prior to the point where SE threw away the rulebook.

Picking a tree and sticking with it is a different story. What you guys are asking for is already accomplished by having different classes.

The point being made is that:

a) FFXI had permanent (well, semi-permanent) "skill trees" via merits and everyone was fine with it
b) Allowing players to specialize further within their class (exactly as merits did) is not "limiting their fun"

You insist that RDM can perform just fine with no group2 merits at all (which is not unreasonable), but then turn around and assert that in a world where CNJ can specialize in healing, somehow their existing nukes will then immediately become unacceptably bad? Some consistency, please.

No, I don't want to be forced down the healing path and never look back or go through annoying resets only because my LS requires me on healing duty all the time. I want the option to switch on the fly like we do now.

You do realize that WoW allows you to switch between two fully-configured specs, right? If you are going to be ABSOLUTELY DEAD SET AGAINST a feature, it might help to be informed about it.

[miokomioko]

a) FFXI had permanent (well, semi-permanent) "skill trees" via merits and everyone was fine with it

So, in other words, NOT PERMANENT.

[Lucavi]

a) FFXI had permanent (well, semi-permanent) "skill trees" via merits and everyone was fine with it.

Proof? I wasn't fine with it. I know quite a few people that weren't fine with it. The system worked well enough for an already-simplistic game. That doesn't mean everyone was "fine with it".

Your argument falls flat on its face simply through your blanket assumptions. You being fine with it + whatever addicted HNM botter shells being fine with it =/= "everyone being fine with it". If everyone was fine with it, XI would have had a hell of a lot more than its floating 500k subs.

I don't even disagree with many of your points, but that was just stupid. You know better.

[Hyan]

How? How exactly can combat be complex by restricting freedom of movement? All you're doing is limiting NM/boss mechanics to tank and spank or standing on the sides.

We just told you. It still doesn't mean anything because you have this silly idea that only by not restricting movement combat can be 'complex'. You don't accept anything else at this point.

Game released: "Give us a jump!" *
* Majority of the playerbase who've subsequently left XIV and no longer check XIV forums.

Listen to the morons, Square! Take this into account. Not every idiot still plays!

What about the third group: the ones that didn't care for or against jump, but simply didn't want to have to get stuck on 2-inch changes in terrain?

Nobody that was against jumping was against removing the invisible walls. The third group is fucking retarded.

[Caerith]

Nobody that was against jumping was against removing the invisible walls. The third group is fucking retarded.

What's retarded about not giving a shit about jumping? Just because you care doesn't mean everyone else does.

[Elrina]

Once again merits meant nothing in FFXI. As a RDM you can live without tier 2 merits and any RDM with half a brain would pick Slow II and Paralyze II over anything else. Bio III if soloing or want a potent DoT. Seriously you can also have all spells/abilities and some jobs can easily get away with it (see PUP and DNC).
Picking a tree and sticking with it is a different story. What you guys are asking for is already accomplished by having different classes.
Other MMOs need skill trees because you can't switch jobs after the character select screen... FFXI and XIV allow you to switch anytime you want so if you want to specialize in healing you pick WHM, if you want to nuke you pick BLM,SCH or BLU, RDM for multitasking, etc.
Why limit my options when the result you're trying to accomplish is already accomplished very well by having multiple classes? That's the uniqueness of FF online games.
I don't understand the need of trees when the game already allows you to do that by going to your MH or changing weapons/abilities. It's probably the most brilliant point of FFXI and XIV.
No, I don't want to be forced down the healing path and never look back or go through annoying resets only because my LS requires me on healing duty all the time. I want the option to switch on the fly like we do now.
Again, if you want to specialize in healing level up a damn healing job. It's the same thing you guys are asking for except your suggestion would either limit or force annoying resets on people that want to switch their playstiles every now and then.
BLU and SCH as they are in FFXI wouldn't even exist if the game had proper skill trees implemented and they're the jobs I enjoy the most.
Merits=/= proper skill trees. You don't pick a playstile with merits... you simple increase what your job already excels at. Half of them is totally useless anyway (see SCH). And Phalanx II is a really bad example to use.. RDM/SCH can easily get away with Phalanx alone. I've also never needed the spell, Paralyze II is more helpful in the long run.

First, I'm not lobbying for skill trees here. I don't mind speculating how the system could be improved, but that's not why I just feel like it's necessary to interject here.

Your entire argument is founded on the ability to choose, right? You can change to different classes on a whim, and thus skill trees on any given class would limit it unnecessarily.

It was already mentioned once, but the pigeonholing would result and you will be "stuck on the healing path forever" because your ls wants you to just as much now as with a skill tree enforcing it, nevermind if you had the option for dual specs.

With or without skill trees, you will be forced into doing whatever your social groups expect out of you, or the player base as a whole. You will be expected to use certain abilities, perform certain duties your class can perform to certain expectations, and that is that. Either way, you're fucked, if you're one of those "I want the ability to choose how I play my class" people. Pretending you have a choice, either way, is stupid. At least with skill trees you can force people into regarding your CNJ as a BLM if you spec that way, so instead of all of them being seen as a WHM, they have to start differentiating.

Oh, and I'm not sure how this wasn't picked out of your argument already, but you do pick a playstyle with merits. Just because everyone expects certain merits that are the "most potent and efficient" doesn't mean they're the only options. Just like you said, half of them are totally useless, but there were/are people who preferred some of them to the "efficient" merits. I knew a few such people. And they were spoken badly about by some people who knew, because they did it to enhance the style of play they preferred rather than follow the mainstream. Pretty much exactly the same as would happen with skill trees.

After having said that, I don't care about them either. I'd prefer they just focus on better exclusive abilities for each class. Like Celeras brought up, remove the stupid ability point restrictions on class specific abilities, and use them only for sub-abilities from other classes. And remove the useless as hell physical level system and just grant each class it's own stat increases from ranking up. As it is, stat allocation is worse than skill trees ever could be, since you don't just have to select a branch for one class (which would still leave you the ability to change classes to play something different), but set them for every class, and re-allocating them efficiently takes a stupid amount of time.

We just told you. It still doesn't mean anything because you have this silly idea that only by not restricting movement combat can be 'complex'. You don't accept anything else at this point.

I don't even care about that, it feels extremely stiff unnecessarily, which just makes it feel that much more boring and that much more of a drag. It's not like there's proper strategy there to excuse it, nor that there ever would be the level of complexity required to excuse it. Fluid combat is capable of strategy as well, and is generally just more enjoyable, since it doesn't feel like it's just dragging along.

Listen to the morons, Square! Take this into account. Not every idiot still plays!

So subjective. It could just as easily be said that you're the idiot, and that they're the intelligent ones. Your opinion isn't automatically better than that of the majority or "right" simply because it's yours. And even if it was assumed that they were the idiots, SE would still be an idiot to not cater to their opinions anyway, since pleasing "the majority" by definition equals more money for them.

Nobody that was against jumping was against removing the invisible walls. The third group is fucking retarded.

And just like Caerith says, there's nothing wrong with not caring one way or the other. You don't have to be against it just because you don't specifically want or care about it.

[Hyan]

What's retarded about not giving a shit about jumping? Just because you care doesn't mean everyone else does.

Because it means shit for both groups and is only a waste of resources for something we a) dislike or b) don't care about. If it doesn't matter whether it's implemented or not, it shouldn't be implemented.

Your opinion isn't automatically better than that of the majority or "right" simply because it's yours.

I have been explaining since pace 3? 4? why it's shitty. Then comes millionsknives with his stupid insight. I don't care enough to respond properly.

Here's a quote from Kaylia. That's all there is to it.

The issue here is that jumping, without swimming or properly designed environment is probably going to be awkward and useless.

I'm glad he is considering it but it's a bit too late now. That's the kind of thing you have to include very early in the project.

And remove the useless as hell physical level system and just grant each class it's own stat increases from ranking up.

Yes yes, let's make everyone without 5 classes leveled a laughing stock of the community. "Making a casual game since 2011."

[Caerith]

Because it means shit for both groups and is only a waste of resources for something we a) dislike or b) don't care about. If it doesn't matter whether it's implemented or not, it shouldn't be implemented.

So... wait. You don't like jumping, therefore anyone who has no opinion re: jumping is fucking retarded. How does that even follow? Have you even heard of logic?

I don't care enough to respond properly.

Or I guess that pretty much explains everything you say.

[Elrina]

Because it means shit for both groups and is only a waste of resources for something we a) dislike or b) don't care about. If it doesn't matter whether it's implemented or not, it shouldn't be implemented.



I have been explaining since pace 3? 4? why it's shitty. Then comes millionsknives with his stupid insight. I don't care enough to respond properly.

Here's a quote from Kaylia. That's all there is to it.

You feel it's a waste of resources, as do a specific amount of other people, in light of other higher priority adjustments. It doesn't list the priority that feature has, and I'm sure even the people for it (including myself) feel it should have less priority than a number of other changes and additions.

His insight is irrelevant and we have already argued the specific argument to death. The only reason I even felt the need to say something, and respond again, is because you decided to generalize on a massive level that simply because "the majority" wanted a feature you don't feel important they were idiots. I was just pointing out that wasn't necessarily the case and could just as easily be the other way around, and even if it was, catering to them simply because they're the majority wouldn't be a bad way to expend resources if they were wanting to entice them back into the game or to pick it up for the first time. And that's ultimately what matters more than anything else, enticing people into the game or back into the game that haven't already shown they're willing to trudge through bad gameplay till the game turns around for the better.

And as to the quote from Kaylia, that isn't all there is to it. It's a subjective opinion, and one that mainly just points out something already acknowledged on both sides of the disagreement.

Yes yes, let's make everyone without 5 classes leveled a laughing stock of the community. "Making a casual game since 2011."

Still would be, wouldn't change anything. It would, you say? No, it really wouldn't. It will still ultimately fall down to what classes people have leveled, since physical levels will be expected to be capped out after a certain period of time anyway. Stat allocation in it's current form is a waste of time and is utterly pointless. Two separate experience and level structures inside of the same game are not necessary to make a game casual, it's just a not particularly creative way of doing it (or trying to, since that by itself in no way would make the game "casual"). If it was kept, the limits on it should be removed and (preferably) templates introduced to save stat spreads when changing classes.

[Hyan]

You don't like jumping, therefore anyone who has no opinion re: jumping is fucking retarded. How does that even follow? Have you even heard of logic?

Anyone who has no opinion automatically means they don't want jumping in the game, simple as fuck. I'm sure you have an opinion about other issues/features in this game and if implementing jumping takes place before them in the priority list, you lose.

catering to them simply because they're the majority wouldn't be a bad way to expend resources if they were wanting to entice them back into the game or to pick it up for the first time.

/assuming that they will like what they're getting. Haha.

It's a subjective opinion

It's not. Of course people are entitled to their shitty opinions but there is the best approach to take, and this is not it.

[Elrina]

Anyone who has no opinion automatically means they don't want jumping in the game, simple as fuck. I'm sure you have an opinion about other issues/features in this game and if implementing jumping takes place before them in the priority list, you lose.

Too bad it doesn't work that way. There will always be features in an MMO that not everybody wants, or cares about, no matter what you do. It would just be one, of at least a few or more over time. A lot of people thought ballista was a complete waste of time, and didn't care for or about it, but that doesn't change the fact that there were also a lot of people who enjoyed it. That alone means it wasn't a waste of resources, and deserved it's place.

/assuming that they will like what they're getting. Haha.



It's not. Of course people are entitled to their shitty opinions but there is the best approach to take, and this is not it.

Not going to keep arguing about this with you. The only reason I spoke is because you like to be outspoken about calling other people stupid, and generalizing other groups of people as idiots. I tend to be careful, even when disagreeing, not to come out and call you an idiot for thinking what you do, but it doesn't change the fact that I often think you are one. A lot of your ideas and opinions about the direction the game should go are shitty, as far as I'm concerned.

If you want to argue against something, do so, but learn some tact and try actually using reason rather than sarcasm, condescension and derision as your main tools of argument. You do so sometimes, you should do so more often.