Letter from the Producer, I (1/21/2010)

[Riposte]

Concerning posting of charts in this forum... screenshots.

[Cichy]

The npc's around may not be intended to rent chocobos but to be caretakers for your own which could be bought from a shepherd. They could produce Chocos from regular to exceptional, with maybe abilities to explore certain types of terrain like in 7. Probably just wishful thinking.

[Hyan]

The npc's around may not be intended to rent chocobos but to be caretakers for your own which could be bought from a shepherd. They could produce Chocos from regular to exceptional, with maybe abilities to explore certain types of terrain like in 7. Probably just wishful thinking.

That sounds great.

[Elrina]

Friend won't post it, but he showed it to me and I thought it was hilarious.

"Old (current) class names and distinctions."

Spoiler: show

"New (traditional) class names and distinctions."

Spoiler: show

[Kaelan?]

Just to let you know, this is a pretty shitty version of class speccing. In fact, its not speccing at all. Its taking individual parts of each class and adding them to your main class. That's not a spec at all.

It's adding abilities that you otherwise wouldn't have to customize your class in a mutually exclusive way. Same thing. Where the abilities come from is merely cosmetic.

This is actually better than speccing, since it allows you to have shit you otherwise never would have if you were just limited to specializing based on what your class's "role" fits into: i.e.: Being able to have Cure/Spikes while soloing on PUG. The only reason it's not impressive right now is due to lack of abilities in general (or abilities not being effective enough).

[Dakin]

I stopped reading this tread after the first page of the jump discussion. Really guys?

Also, Hyan is doing a very good job of trolling.

[Hyan]

I thought so too. I'll edit the charts to the OP when I wake up.

[Riposte]

And another thing: My main impression is that we will be getting big improvements, but at small costs. For example we will probably get a game that will move away from crafting being the game's main elements(if not one that kills it with a slow death, like FFXI). And then you got things like the removal of unique setting-based classes for hamfisted tradition. What I get most from this new producer(who has acted like a designer/director) is that he lacks the talent needed for originality. But for the very same reasons his team are going implement must-have features. I would say these improvements outweigh the costs. (And that the idea of realization of the original FFXIV vision died upon the premature launch.)

[Lucavi]

It's adding abilities that you otherwise wouldn't have to customize your class in a mutually exclusive way. Same thing. Where the abilities come from is merely cosmetic.

This is actually better than speccing, since it allows you to have shit you otherwise never would have if you were just limited to specializing based on what your class's "role" fits into: i.e.: Being able to have Cure/Spikes while soloing on PUG. The only reason it's not impressive right now is due to lack of abilities in general (or abilities not being effective enough).

Not quite. Speccing buffs certain abilities and adds new ones based on what area you decide to master. This is nothing like speccing. Speccing, for instance, would buff an aspect of conjurer, perhaps elemental nuking, or healing. Buffing nuking could either enhance specific abilities, like allowing for a DoT afterburn on fire spells, or granting an instant cast on a complimentary spell when another one crits, or could grant new abilities altogether that you'd have to spec deep into the tree for, like an instant-cast ancient magic spell. This comes alongside your regular abilities and spells that you get while leveling.

XIV's current system simply allows you to mix and match individual abilities and traits. At best, a Conj can turn into a mage with a wide variety of spells from the other classes or perhaps some defense-boosting abilities from one of the physical classes. It offers more freedom, but not exactly more utility than pure speccing, because many of those extra abilities come with penalties to keep things from getting to unbalanced. Putting spikes on a pug doesn't buff the pug outside of giving him spikes. Speccing into those spikes could greatly enhance the spikes to the point where they become extremely potent, not this watered-down tripe we have that's currently in game after the nerfs.

Both systems allow for hybrids, but as to which would be more effective, I'd have to go with the former. XIV will never have a huge array of abilities. They can't even do hotbars correctly, and most of your abilities for individual jobs are recycled at some point, simply with a slightly stronger effect (cures) or an additional effect (targeting a body part).

[Selamis]

Quite many people don't play MMO for the story, if you hadn't realized that. Around 30% of people in Eorzea spend their time mostly crafting. Just because you don't think of it as an important feature doesn't mean the opinion of 30% of the playerbase should be ignored to cater to you.

Well to be honest, those 30% of the people that spend their time crafting, is because that's all there is to do right now. My point, if it didn't come off that way originally though, was why pay $13 a month to just sit around and craft, seeing the world only to deliver the package to whatever npc and not experience the game itself with all it has to offer. Yes, there are other jobs a crafter can play to do such things, but from a crafting only standpoint, why spend the $50 to buy this game, plus the monthly fee, if all you're going to do is become a service to other people and get paid, but never spend that money on anything because you're not leveling anything other than crafting jobs? Crafting should be a means of making money, and making armor that you may not want to spend the money on if it's overpriced, or making something for a friend, or if there's none for sale so you have to make it from scratch.

Play the MMO, interact with other players, do quests/missions, do pvp, hunt nms, you know? Why limit yourself to online relations that are purely a business only thing but not get to know other players on a personal level? And yeah, you can get to know people that'll keep coming to you to make an item for them, but at that point would you really say you made a friend, or are they just using you to get what they want?

[Lazytowner]

God fucking damnit Lucavi stop making perfect sense.

[Lazytowner]

Well to be honest, those 30% of the people that spend their time crafting, is because that's all there is to do right now. My point, if it didn't come off that way originally though, was why pay $13 a month to just sit around and craft, seeing the world only to deliver the package to whatever npc and not experience the game itself with all it has to offer. Yes, there are other jobs a crafter can play to do such things, but from a crafting only standpoint, why spend the $50 to buy this game, plus the monthly fee, if all you're going to do is become a service to other people and get paid, but never spend that money on anything because you're not leveling anything other than crafting jobs? Crafting should be a means of making money, and making armor that you may not want to spend the money on if it's overpriced, or making something for a friend, or if there's none for sale so you have to make it from scratch.

Play the MMO, interact with other players, do quests/missions, do pvp, hunt nms, you know? Why limit yourself to online relations that are purely a business only thing but not get to know other players on a personal level? And yeah, you can get to know people that'll keep coming to you to make an item for them, but at that point would you really say you made a friend, or are they just using you to get what they want?

Because aspies want a mindless grind with zero social interaction. You know, that fun part in MMOs that Square Enix seem to forget about at release. One of the few reasons people have for defending this game's current state of CRAFT CRAFT CRAFT BUY BUY SELL SELL is because they only care about the feeling of prestige in these games while completely ignoring what is appealing about an MMO in the first place -- OTHER PEOPLE.

My point: If players want to feel good about themselves, they should go play offline and dominate npc's while everyone else has FUN playing an MMO with constant interaction with other people.

M-A-S-S-I-V-E-L-Y M-U-L-T-I-P-L-A-Y-E-R <-- read, dipshits.

[Kaelan?]

Not quite. Speccing buffs certain abilities and adds new ones based on what area you decide to master. This is nothing like speccing. Speccing, for instance, would buff an aspect of conjurer, perhaps elemental nuking, or healing. Buffing nuking could either enhance specific abilities, like allowing for a DoT afterburn on fire spells, or granting an instant cast on a complimentary spell when another one crits, or could grant new abilities altogether that you'd have to spec deep into the tree for, like an instant-cast ancient magic spell. This comes alongside your regular abilities and spells that you get while leveling.

XIV's current system simply allows you to mix and match individual abilities and traits. At best, a Conj can turn into a mage with a wide variety of spells from the other classes or perhaps some defense-boosting abilities from one of the physical classes. It offers more freedom, but not exactly more utility than pure speccing, because many of those extra abilities come with penalties to keep things from getting to unbalanced. Putting spikes on a pug doesn't buff the pug outside of giving him spikes. Speccing into those spikes could greatly enhance the spikes to the point where they become extremely potent, not this watered-down tripe we have that's currently in game after the nerfs.

Both systems allow for hybrids, but as to which would be more effective, I'd have to go with the former. XIV will never have a huge array of abilities. They can't even do hotbars correctly, and most of your abilities for individual jobs are recycled at some point, simply with a slightly stronger effect (cures) or an additional effect (targeting a body part).

That's just an issue with content. The difference between making Berserk stronger and getting Last Resort is cosmetic if the numbers end up being the same. You can buff all your existing damage ninjutsu by some % or you can just add Futae. You can make your DEF bonus trait stronger or you can just get Defender. If the strength of the enhancement matches, in the end the result is the same. As long as other jobs have abilities that make whatever you want to strengthen more effective, it's the same thing.

There's still plenty of room to work with the traits too. Nothing's really stopping them from making "Sacrifice+50%" or whatever traits.

It's just an issue of not actually having a whole lot of abilities/spells/traits right now; the system itself allows for the same end result. If we had speccing instead, we'd still be short on content and the enhancements would be just as irrelevant as they are now (and the potential to be good would be the same as the current system). The only real difference as far as I can see is that you have to work harder to get all the bonuses you might want, since you have to EXP a bunch of jobs - which, I guess, is a reasonable tradeoff for a wider array of possible customizations.

[Hyan]

if all you're going to do is become a service to other people and get paid, but never spend that money on anything because you're not leveling anything other than crafting jobs?

That's quite a silly way to see it, as crafters can have their endgame goals (since equipment exists for these classes already) and things to spend all that money on. All I see is that you can't imagine how anyone could play a game differently from the way you do and that everyone should just deal with it as long as you're happy.

Nothing stops them from leveling a DoW or DoM on the side for mission purposes if that's what they want to do. But if 30% of people want to be crafter mains then they should be given that opportunity. That is not a percentage to just ignore. Gathering clearly looks like it should be given less emphasis however (or more fleshing out and tweaking to make it become interesting for main purposes).

Speccing into those spikes could greatly enhance the spikes to the point where they become extremely potent, not this watered-down tripe we have that's currently in game after the nerfs.

That's what the affinity traits do?

My point: If players want to feel good about themselves, they should go play offline and dominate npc's while everyone else has FUN playing an MMO with constant interaction with other people.

That mindset doesn't quite fit into 99% of MMO's out there. Individuality, Convenience, Army of One- the keywords for the MMO's of current-gen.

I would say these improvements outweigh the costs.

But to which point? I'm kinda hoping at some point the man will step back and let Komoto handle the development. Nobody will play this game if the must-have features are missing... but nobody will play this game if it doesn't have enough originality about it.

[Vuitton]

If jump is added I am going to cancel my pre-order. It is the CE too, so SE better listen to me. That is how upset I am over this important topic.

Seriously though, all SE has to do is look to their CopyPasta critics, then ignore their complaints, and then CTRL-C all the fucking 1-2 foot cliffs we CAN walk up and drop down from, and then highlight all the cliffs we cant and CTRL-V. Issue solved.

[Lucavi]

God fucking damnit Lucavi stop making perfect sense.

I'm so sorry, sir.

Edit: My apologies for the double.

[Lucavi]

That's just an issue with content. The difference between making Berserk stronger and getting Last Resort is cosmetic if the numbers end up being the same. You can buff all your existing damage ninjutsu by some % or you can just add Futae. You can make your DEF bonus trait stronger or you can just get Defender. If the strength of the enhancement matches, in the end the result is the same. As long as other jobs have abilities that make whatever you want to strengthen more effective, it's the same thing.

There's still plenty of room to work with the traits too. Nothing's really stopping them from making "Sacrifice+50%" or whatever traits.

It's just an issue of not actually having a whole lot of abilities/spells/traits right now; the system itself allows for the same end result. If we had speccing instead, we'd still be short on content and the enhancements would be just as irrelevant as they are now (and the potential to be good would be the same as the current system). The only real difference as far as I can see is that you have to work harder to get all the bonuses you might want, since you have to EXP a bunch of jobs - which, I guess, is a reasonable tradeoff for a wider array of possible customizations.

There's a few flaws in your logic, although I see your point.

A) Specs affect your main class. Specs would override the focal point of XIV, which is the fact that you can switch classes as you wish by equipping different weapons. Simply have specs saved through the game for each class you switch to, crafters included.

B) The issue of content is irrelevant as it pertains to specs. Content, or lack thereof, is provided by SE. SE isn't giving us a lot of content. That's SE's problem, not a problem of specs. I'd argue that there'd be far more "meat" in the game, in terms of incentives to XP or gain experience through quests/ect. if people simply had a bigger incentive to actually level. Being able to amplify and increase the power of their individual classes seems to be a great incentive to get people out there fighting, even if its still under the shitty guildelve system.

The major issue is content. SE is pathetic when it comes to content. They haven't shown much content, and there's literally no fluff in this game to keep anyone busy. I doubt we'd see talent trees or anything of the like, but I garuntee that it would help flesh out the game, or at the very least, provide people more incentives to level up than "I want to be max for when content starts coming" like most DoW classes are saying now.

Hyan, the traits in this game are:

A) Singular in their nature. They enhance very little.
B) Limited. There are a pitiful few avalible, period, and the ones that are available, outside of a select few, are pretty lame. Fastcast is nice, but I wouldn't call that a "buff" to any particular spell, and why not have a fastcast overall buff + individual buffs to the cast speed of actual spells? Why not actually "buff" the spikes, like adding stun to them, or restoring 5% of the damage they do as HP, or reducing the cast time on an offensive spell each time spikes proc? The current traits are extremely limited in their scope.
C) Designed in a way so that they don't exactly lend themselves well to other classes with the exception of a select few. If you're going to have the "freedom" of applying the traits to any class, but they're this limited, you're better off simply having the traits apply large bonuses to a single class.

[Riposte]

The best way to implement jobs is to add a separate set of macros which allow use to set every ability/trait without concern for room and allow us to name them. Ta-da. For fun let us trade them. (EDIT: You know... more I think about this, the better it sounds as something more than a sarcastic comment lol. All they need to do is add "Job Traits", or rather a super-trait with a variety of bonuses in one, for an extra layer of customization and depth. This is a good compromise.)

Hopefully renaming classes will not be as horrible as I imagine it. Pugilist are not Monks, Gladiators not Paladins, etc. "Monk" is an especially bad class concept in almost every western fantasy(-derived) games, even in real RPGs. Pugilist is a fantastic execution of a hand to hand fighter. Paladins are "templar/hospitaller knights with cure spells", in what of the three city-states would they even fit? Certainly not Ul'dah and not inside a colosseum. Doesn't work any way you cut it. Hamfisted... Fortunately, all of this matters very little in the long run.

[Hyan]

I fear that the implementation of Musketeer (now Corsair to not make the nostalgy-zealots run away in fear) is being delayed because of this.

So much work has to be done to make it happen. How many times is Pugilist mentioned in the game? Tons of weapons and armors with PUG on it too.

I really hope this is a part of Yoshida's new direction, to talk about stuff that may not make it into the game. I'm all for enhancing class identities or whatever but there's nothing wrong with the class names and for the most part their roles neither. They just need something to stand out.

[Dakin]

I fear that the implementation of Musketeer (now Corsair to not make the nostalgy-zealots run away in fear) is being delayed because of this.

So much work has to be done to make it happen. How many times is Pugilist mentioned in the game? Tons of weapons and armors with PUG on it too.

I really hope this is a part of Yoshida's new direction, to talk about stuff that may not make it into the game. I'm all for enhancing class identities or whatever but there's nothing wrong with the class names and for the most part their roles neither. They just need something to stand out.

Agreed. Class names aren't an issue, it's lack of unique gear and abilities to make them stand out.

For all I care my archer could be called a doo-doo shooter and I wouldn't care as long as I FELT like a doo-doo shooter.