Faith-Healing Parents Get Probation

[Alleya]

What I was getting at is that saying something is ethical/moral because a magic sky god told you so is not a good way to run a society.

[Faris]

What I was getting at is that saying something is ethical/moral because a magic sky god told you so is not a good way to run a society.

history disagrees with you.

[Alleya]

It's interesting that world has progressed so much faster and gone so much farther in the age of secularism and science than at any other point history, then.

[zoobernut]

history disagrees with you.

You can skew it all you want. It is not clear cut either way. I could just as easily say that history disagrees with you and agrees with Alleya and it would have just as much meaning as your statement.

[Faris]

i dont think its got anything to do with secularism, its just the nature of an intellectual being, over time, we will develop in certain ways. However, i dont think this development is covering all aspects of life.

[Faris]

You can skew it all you want. It is not clear cut either way. I could just as easily say that history disagrees with you and agrees with Alleya and it would have just as much meaning as your statement.

if you pick what part of the world you're talking about, and what history. sure i agree with you.

[Alleya]

It must be very comforting to simply say "no u" in response to an articulated argument. Can I do it if I'm religious too? It'd save me a lot of trouble of having to explain my positions with examples and rational thought.

[zoobernut]

if you pick what part of the world you're talking about, and what history. sure i agree with you.

So since you didn't specify which region and time period and whose interpretation of history you are agreeing that your last post was utterly useless.

[TheTaru]

It must be very comforting to simply say "no u" in response to an articulated argument. Can I do it if I'm religious too? It'd save me a lot of trouble of having to explain my positions with examples and rational thought.

Of course you can. It's God's will.

[Yugl]

It must be very comforting to simply say "no u" in response to an articulated argument. Can I do it if I'm religious too? It'd save me a lot of trouble of having to explain my positions with examples and rational thought.

You haven't articulated your argument thoroughly enough to warrant a stronger response. For example, you do not demarcate the effects of technology from that of secularism and science. You do not denote how society has changed because of these features. Some would argue that we live relatively the same as our trains of thought correspond with mechanisms of expression (Transition for oral recording to written forms). You do not denote what it means for a society to take on a secular and "scientific" position. Some would argue we are still in a society dominated by religion because expressions still carry religious undertones. In short, the more you invest, the more you receive.

[Alleya]

And yet, you still found a way to say all of that instead of "well history, so there".

[aurik]

Hey guys I think we should stop teaching evolution as a well-established well-supported theory.

[Faris]

It must be very comforting to simply say "no u" in response to an articulated argument. Can I do it if I'm religious too? It'd save me a lot of trouble of having to explain my positions with examples and rational thought.

i dont see how i did that

u want me to back up my previous statement? sure after i finish having dinner

[Yugl]

And yet, you still found a way to say all of that instead of "well history, so there".

Yet, none of that responds to what you say, it just asks for more detail. To specify further on this issue, by being vague on your points, you fall into the trap of speaking past each other. If I wanted to counter your argument, you need to give me specific substance to counter. For example, it is true that someone can die by having too much water (Even if the water is fine by our safety standards) because the person has had too much and will experience poisoning after the next class. I can generalize this to fountain and bottled water, by our safety standards, can kill you. Now, looking at all of this in context, the conclusion makes sense. However, if you only give us the conclusion, you leave us the task of developing your argument for you. When given that option, people may not construct it in the manner you wish for them to receive the argument. Hence, specification is better.

[Kazen]

i dont think its got anything to do with secularism, its just the nature of an intellectual being, over time, we will develop in certain ways. However, i dont think this development is covering all aspects of life.

I'm going to have to stop you here. Development has everything to do with science. I'll even give you a perfect example of a society that hasn't developed. The Yami people of Lamyu island was discovered around the early 1900s. This island has been inhabited by these people for thousands of years; these people are highly "religious" as in they believe in creationism, etc. It's just one of the things accepted on this island, inhabitants aren't allowed to dispute this theory of creation. These people have lived on that island for thousands of years yet they still use stone tools. Why do you think this is? If humans are an intellectual being that will progress without any influence of science or secularism why is it that these people still use stone tools and only have a life span of about 30 years? The people on this island are basically what we would consider "cavemen" and have been for thousands of years.

These people aren't allowed to dispute the way things are or the belief system the tribe has which has stopped the development they could have had.

[Faris]

[/quote]history disagrees with you. [/quote]
just some examples:

Some modern scholars, such as Fielding H. Garrison, are of the opinion that modern geology began in the medieval Islamic world. Abu al-Rayhan al-Biruni (973–1048 AD) was one of the earliest Muslim geologists, whose works included the earliest writings on the geology of India, hypothesizing that the Indian subcontinent was once a sea. Islamic Scholar Ibn Sina (Avicenna, 981–1037) proposed detailed explanations for the formation of mountains, the origin of earthquakes, and other topics central to modern Geology, which provided an essential foundation for the later development of the science. In China, the polymath Shen Kua (1031–1095) formulated a hypothesis for the process of land formation: based on his observation of fossil animal shells in a geological stratum in a mountain hundreds of miles from the ocean, he inferred that the land was formed by erosion of the mountains and by deposition of silt.

The Islamic Golden Age is traditionally dated from the mid-8th century to the mid-13th century (the time of the Mongol invasion).[1][2] During this period, artists, engineers, scholars, poets, philosophers, geographers and traders in the Islamic world contributed to agriculture, the arts, economics, industry, law, literature, navigation, philosophy, sciences, sociology, and technology, both by preserving earlier traditions and by adding inventions and innovations of their own.[3] Howard R. Turner writes: "Muslim artists and scientists, princes and laborers together made a unique culture that has directly and indirectly influenced societies on every continent."[3] Individuals contributing to the Islamic Golden Age were not necessarily Muslim however, considering many parts of the then-tolerant Islamic world were inhabited by other religious groups, such as Christians, Jews and Mandeans.[4]
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During this period the Muslim world became a major intellectual centre for science, philosophy, medicine and education. They established the "House of Wisdom" (Arabic:بيت الحكمة) in Baghdad, where scholars, both Muslim and non-Muslim, sought to gather and translate all the world's knowledge into Arabic in the Translation Movement. Many classic works of antiquity that would otherwise have been forgotten were translated into Arabic and later in turn translated into Turkish, Sindhi, Persian, Hebrew and Latin. Knowledge was synthesized from works originating in ancient Mesopotamia, Ancient Rome, China, India, Persia, Ancient Egypt, North Africa, Ancient Greece and Byzantine civilizations. According to Bernard Lewis, the Caliphate was the first "truly universal civilization," which brought together for the first time "peoples as diverse as the Chinese, the Indians, the people of the Middle East and North Africa, black Africans, and white Europeans."[6]

A major innovation of this period was paper – originally a secret tightly guarded by the Chinese. The art of papermaking was obtained from prisoners taken at the Battle of Talas (751), spreading to the Islamic cities of Samarkand and Baghdad. The Arabs improved upon the Chinese techniques of using mulberry bark by using starch to account for the Muslim preference for pens vs. the Chinese for brushes. By AD 900 there were hundreds of shops employing scribes and binders for books in Baghdad and public libraries began to become established. From here paper-making spread west to Fez and then to al-Andalus and from there to Europe in the 13th century.[7]

Religious freedom, though society was still controlled under Islamic values, helped create cross-cultural networks by attracting Muslim, Christian and Jewish intellectuals and thereby helped spawn the greatest period of philosophical creativity in the Middle Ages from the 8th to 13th centuries.[5] Another reason the Islamic world flourished during this period was an early emphasis on freedom of speech, as summarized by al-Hashimi (a cousin of Caliph al-Ma'mun) in the following letter to one of the religious opponents he was attempting to convert through reason:[12][dubious – discuss]

"Bring forward all the arguments you wish and say whatever you please and speak your mind freely. Now that you are safe and free to say whatever you please appoint some arbitrator who will impartially judge between us and lean only towards the truth and be free from the empary of passion, and that arbitrator shall be Reason, whereby God makes us responsible for our own rewards and punishments. Herein I have dealt justly with you and have given you full security and am ready to accept whatever decision Reason may give for me or against me. For "There is no compulsion in religion" (Qur'an 2:256) and I have only invited you to accept our faith willingly and of your own accord and have pointed out the hideousness of your present belief. Peace be upon you and the blessings of God!"

A significant number of inventions were produced by medieval Muslim engineers and inventors, such as Abbas Ibn Firnas, the Banū Mūsā, Taqi al-Din, and most notably al-Jazari.

Some of the inventions journalist Paul Vallely has stated to have come from the Islamic Golden Age include the camera obscura, coffee, soap bar, tooth paste, shampoo, distilled alcohol, uric acid, nitric acid, alembic, valve, reciprocating suction piston pump, mechanized waterclocks, quilting, surgical catgut, vertical-axle windmill, inoculation, cryptanalysis, frequency analysis, three-course meal, stained glass and quartz glass, Persian carpet, and celestial globe.[65]

it goes on...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Golden_Age

and this is only a wiki page...tip of the ice berg.

[Yugl]

Isn't there a difference between dogmatic beliefs and religion though? For example, I've recently heard that intelligent design is basically theorizing that it's possible for an intelligent creator to exist and that his role fills the gaps in science. If this is the case, it certain is religious because it points to a figure outside of the empirical realm. It is not dogmatic though because the theory changes form with science, so unless you find science to be dogmatic (And some argue it is), then you cannot say this version of intelligent design is strictly dogmatic.

[Faris]

I'm going to have to stop you here. Development has everything to do with science. I'll even give you a perfect example of a society that hasn't developed. The Yami people of Lamyu island was discovered around the early 1900s. This island has been inhabited by these people for thousands of years; these people are highly "religious" as in they believe in creationism, etc. It's just one of the things accepted on this island, inhabitants aren't allowed to dispute this theory of creation. These people have lived on that island for thousands of years yet they still use stone tools. Why do you think this is? If humans are an intellectual being that will progress without any influence of science or secularism why is it that these people still use stone tools and only have a life span of about 30 years? The people on this island are basically what we would consider "cavemen" and have been for thousands of years.

These people aren't allowed to dispute the way things are or the belief system the tribe has which has stopped the development they could have had.

intellect means science, i was refering to secularism only.

[Kazen]

But societies that reject science because of religion would hinder intellect whereas societies that accept secularism would never have science hindered in the first place. Secularism would never stop growth whereas religion can.

[Feedmenow]

A society developing is more dependent on how it reacts to new ideas, rather than purely how secular it is. Many ancient cultures were pretty damn religious, but created many of the ideas and concepts we still use today.