Random Question Thread XIX: Welcome to Flavor Country

[Ocara]

Wouldn't this be pretty simple to test with cloudsplitter since its elemental and dark/fragmentation? Test breeze gorget, test shadow gorget, compare.

[Jeryhn]

Again, fusion has nothing at all to do with it. Stop thinking about fusion, it is in no way related to the discussion. The level 3 light skillchain is light, fire, thunder and air. Suggesting that thunder, air and light work, but fire does not makes no sense. Either the level 3 property counts for gorgets, in which case light and fire gorgets work, or it does not, in which case light gorget doesn't. The idea that a level 3 light property only adds the same gorget as the level 1 transfixion property doesn't make any sense. Light != transfixion.

How many Light skillchains have you seen heal a Puk?
Compare to how many Fragmentation or Detonation skillchains you've seen heal a Puk.

I'm pretty sure you can test this with the Darkness side of things as well, as I'm sure there's some sort of mob that's healed by water.
Compare Darkness vs. Reverberation/Distortion.

[jurjur]

Rukenshin tested it years ago for relic WS, only the lv2 properties gorgets would boost dmg on Kaiten and Light Gorget added nothing. I doubt SE changed the rules for Emp weaponskills considering they have the same properties as relic weaponskills, self light and all.

I was actually looking for that test, do you know have a link?

[Koyangi]

How many Light skillchains have you seen heal a Puk?
Compare to how many Fragmentation or Detonation skillchains you've seen heal a Puk.

I'm pretty sure you can test this with the Darkness side of things as well, as I'm sure there's some sort of mob that's healed by water.
Compare Darkness vs. Reverberation/Distortion.

Berstuk is healed by water.

[Jeryhn]

Berstuk is healed by water.

Turns out all slug-type monsters are healed by water.

[Koyangi]

Only reason I know is because of grellow proccing, lol

[Appie]

I was actually looking for that test, do you know have a link?

Think it was on his livejournal.

Couldn't get livejournal itself to load so went with google cache, post from nov 2006, need to scroll down a bit
http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...=www.google.nl

One of the main questions that no one had a definite answer to about the relic weapons was if the relic WS really worked with the Sea Gorgets.

I came to ask this question because I'm pretty certain that all the gorgets are based on level 1 properties. IE, there's no Fragmentation Gorget that covers both Wind and Thunder, each gorget corresponds with a level 1 element. With that in mind, every normal WS does have level 1 elements, as all weapons skills can be chained with level one properties and/or make level one skillchains.

However, from what I've read Relic WS will not chain with any non Dark/Light making weapon skill. It can only make level 2 SCs and level 3 SCs, no level 1. This made me wonder if it would really work with sea gorgets, since technically it has no level 1 properties.

So, same as always in my past LJ entries... I whipped out THF sub along with a good deal of STR gear and attack food to make sure I was capped to get consistant numbers, and annihilated some bunnies. These are the results:

First, the base WS. It was 1611 consistently with few exceptions; I used it 10 times before moving on.
http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/8903/peacockgk1.jpg

Second, I equipped my Breeze Gorget knowing that it should work with the fact in mind that Kaiten is Fragmentation (Wind+Thunder). 1662 was the result, consistantly with few exceptions for all the 10 weapon skills. This proves it does in fact work, much to my surprise. D:
http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/9369/breezeck5.jpg

Lastly, I wanted to see if Flame Gorget would work. Seeing as the WS elements of Kaiten are Light and Fragmentation, technically I should be able to use any Light element gorget as well and get the same effect. But, results proved that to be wrong, as I went back down to 1611.
http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/3320/flameml1.jpg

So, the gorgets do work with the relic weapon skills, but only the level 2 SC elements.

[Jeryhn]

Except there's one flaw with that test, and that's with the elemental damage that is caused by the skillchains themselves. Liquefaction deals fire damage, while Fusion deals Light AND Fire damage. However, Light (skillchain) only deals light damage - there's simply a different effect on Level 3 skillchains that allow the additional elements to be magic bursted.

The belts/gorgets are more than likely tied to the specific elements of the skillchains themselves, not necessarily the elements that are allowed magic burst when spells are applied to them, which is why you'd see Light Gorget, Breeze Gorget and Thunder Gorget affect Victory Smite and Tachi: Kaiten but a Flame Gorget wouldn't.

That test needs to be repeated with a Light Gorget.

[Phoenyx]

Again, fusion has nothing at all to do with it. Stop thinking about fusion, it is in no way related to the discussion. The level 3 light skillchain is light, fire, thunder and air. Suggesting that thunder, air and light work, but fire does not makes no sense. Either the level 3 property counts for gorgets, in which case light and fire gorgets work, or it does not, in which case light gorget doesn't. The idea that a level 3 light property only adds the same gorget as the level 1 transfixion property doesn't make any sense. Light != transfixion.

L3 Light is not the result of Light, Fire, Thunder and Wind; it is the result of Fusion and Fragmentation.

At any rate, after further consideration I believe I made an incorrect assumption in my original response in that the Light gorget/belt corresponded to the L3 Light WS property rather than the L1 Light WS property. I'd blame lack of coffee, but I was already on cup number three, so I'll just own up to my mistake.

That said, for sure VS benefits from Thunder and Wind gorgets/belts. Light gorget/belt? "The world may never know."

[Jeryhn]

Light gorget/belt? "The world may never know."

If someone with Kaiten can reproduce Rukenshin's test with a Light Gorget, either Breeze or Thunder, and a control group, I'd imagine an answer would be made clear. Smite and Kaiten have identical WS properties.

[Phoenyx]

If someone with Kaiten can reproduce Rukenshin's test with a Light Gorget, either Breeze or Thunder, and a control group, I'd imagine an answer would be made clear. Smite and Kaiten have identical WS properties.

Was goin' for the Tootsie Pop reference. :D But yeah, any testing on the matter would be sweet. It'd be nice to know if I can ever manage to suck less and finish Verethragna.

[Hanyoko]

You pair with the property of the weaponskill not necessarly what skillchain is made.

For example a Induration -> Reverberation property makes a Fragmentation
Guillotine -> Slug Shot. But to boost slug shot you would use the water affinity gorget, not a thunger one
Slug shot has 3 properties attached to it: water, wind, light so those gorgets apply.

[Mojo]

Posted some stuff about Wildfire vs Cloudsplitter a few pages back. I forgot the level +2 part of the formula, thanks to Zagex for pointing this out. Here's the corrected versions.

Wildfire

FLOOR(
	FLOOR(
		FLOOR(
			FLOOR(
				FLOOR(
					FLOOR(
						FLOOR(
							FLOOR(
								FLOOR((
									FLOOR(
										FLOOR(0.6 * cAGI)
									* 0.85)
								+ Lv + 2) * fTP)
							+ 2.0 * (cAGI-tINT))
						* S)
					* A)
				* R)
			* W)
		* cMAB/tMDB)
	* tMDT)
* D)

Cloudsplitter

FLOOR(
	FLOOR(
		FLOOR(
			FLOOR(
				FLOOR(
					FLOOR(
						FLOOR((
							FLOOR(
								FLOOR(0.4 * cSTR + 0.4 * cMND)
							* 0.85)
						+ Lv + 2) * fTP)
					* A)
				* R)
			* W)
		* cMAB/tMDB)
	* tMDT)
* D)

cSTR/cMND/cAGI/cMAB => Character Attributes & Magic Attack Bonus
tINT/tMDB => Target INT & Magic Defense Bonus
S => Staff bonus (1.10 for Fire Staff, 1.15 for Vulcan's)
A => Affinity Bonus (Magian Staves & Atma)
R => Resist
W => Weather/Day Bonus
tMDT => Target magic damage taken adjustment
D => Weaponskill damage adjustment

For clarification, D is some value that has to do with Atma of the Gryphon's Claw or Angig Salade or Overwhelm (weaponskill damage +% stuff.) It may appear earlier or later in the formula and they may or may not stack (i.e. there may be more than one D term.)

Weaponskill	100 TP	200 TP	300 TP
Cloudsplitter	103716	103716	103716
Wildfire	46250	64080	76410

Assuming belt + gorget + the atma listed before but no additional MAB or WS damage+ gear.

[fatty]

so for sure then thunder/breeze gorgets? is there a point or situation where i would use a different belt or gorget rather than the elemental ones?

[Jeryhn]

so for sure then thunder/breeze gorgets? is there a point or situation where i would use a different belt or gorget rather than the elemental ones?

Only situation I could think of is if you're using a WS that already has high fTP (usually multi-hit ones) and also has a particular mod you can use to improve damage. For example, Victory Smite is a WS where'd you'd probably benefit from adding more STR to the WS from a source such as the Black Belt instead of an elemental belt.

[fatty]

Only situation I could think of is if you're using a WS that already has high fTP (usually multi-hit ones) and also has a particular mod you can use to improve damage. For example, Victory Smite is a WS where'd you'd probably benefit from adding more STR to the WS from a source such as the Black Belt instead of an elemental belt.

ok thats more or less what i was wondering. i was looking through some gear sets people had for VS on ffxiah.com last night and saw all kinds of different neck and belt builds. some had gorget/belt some had str neck/belts.

[Jeryhn]

ok thats more or less what i was wondering. i was looking through some gear sets people had for VS on ffxiah.com last night and saw all kinds of different neck and belt builds. some had gorget/belt some had str neck/belts.

iirc, the overall best build for Smite would be a combination of elemental gorget and Black Belt. Something about how any good STR neck above +5 lowers your accuracy (can only think of Ire/Ire +1), and missed hits will actually lower your fTP, especially if you're already using Heafoc for WS. Black Belt instead of elemental belt or Beir (+1) for mostly the same reason (albeit a difference that's not as substantial as the neck case).

Could be wrong here so take a few grains of precious iodized salt, but that's something I heard through the grapevipe.

[fatty]

sounds good to me. unfortunately i wont get to test it firsthand for while as im still playing with Chloris >.< but i wanted to get it clarified beforehand

[Byrthnoth]

Except there's one flaw with that test, and that's with the elemental damage that is caused by the skillchains themselves. Liquefaction deals fire damage, while Fusion deals Light AND Fire damage. However, Light (skillchain) only deals light damage - there's simply a different effect on Level 3 skillchains that allow the additional elements to be magic bursted.

I'm not sure if anyone has corrected you yet, but I'm pretty sure this is wrong. Light skillchain has a chance of doing any of the four sub-element's damage. Transfixion does only Light damage. You can get +10% damage from Lightningsday on a Light skillchain, for instance.

The flaw with his test is that he didn't test Light gorget.

[Jeryhn]

I'm not sure if anyone has corrected you yet, but I'm pretty sure this is wrong. Light skillchain has a chance of doing any of the four sub-element's damage. Transfixion does only Light damage. You can get +10% damage from Lightningsday on a Light skillchain, for instance.

Have never seen a Light skillchain heal a normal everyday Puk in several years of meriting at Mamool Ja point, nor have I seen +10% bonus on any skillchain due to day/weather effects. I assume the day/weather alignment can be easily tested using an Obi because skillchains deal magical damage? If this was the case, I would have thought self-SCing SAMs and BLUs would have been using Obis instead of STR belts a long time ago.

The flaw with his test is that he didn't test Light gorget.

I agree, and mentioned this in a previous post.