Random Question Thread XIX: Welcome to Flavor Country

[Bling]

What's the best axe/axe combo besides empy for war/nin? How does it stack up vs. widowmaker if you have to /nin?

[Kirschy]

You gotta remember Ruke did his testing back when crit PDIF capped at 3.0 so the bonus was easy to see. To test something like that now, you would need to use a Ranged WS to tell for sure. Yoichi comes to mind since it's Lv2 Distortion and Lv3 light?

[Jeryhn]

You gotta remember Ruke did his testing back when crit PDIF capped at 3.0 so the bonus was easy to see. To test something like that now, you would need to use a Ranged WS to tell for sure. Yoichi comes to mind since it's Lv2 Distortion and Lv3 light?

Its a long-shot, but couldn't you use someone with a level 75 job and level sync with a relic weapon for testing since the relic WS should be available from lv75?

[Byrthnoth]

Have never seen a Light skillchain heal a normal everyday Puk in several years of meriting at Mamool Ja point, nor have I seen +10% bonus on any skillchain due to day/weather effects. I assume the day/weather alignment can be easily tested using an Obi because skillchains deal magical damage? If this was the case, I would have thought self-SCing SAMs and BLUs would have been using Obis instead of STR belts a long time ago.

I'm really pretty sure that I saw an Earthsday 10% damage bonus on a Darkness against a Coeurl in the Labyrinth of Onzozo while farming Ose. I remember it not because I was like, "Hooray, this completes my knowledge of game minutae!" but because the guy I was duoing with actually noticed it and I was impressed that he noticed something so minor. I'm perfectly capable of self-darking all over everything now on Dancer though, so I can test when the servers come back up.

[Bling]

What's the deal here? Aqua and snow should work for namas, but maybe not light?

[Kirschy]

Its a long-shot, but couldn't you use someone with a level 75 job and level sync with a relic weapon for testing since the relic WS should be available from lv75?

The change wasn't the level cap, it was shortly after they did the 2H changes. They added something like a 1.05 random factor at the end of damage calculations which makes small increases nearli impossible to distinguish. Ranged calculations are unaffected, and Namas happens to have Lv3 and Lv2 skillchain properties that don't overlap, so it's perfect for a test. I'd be interested in seeing the results.

@Bling, Yea~

[Shakki]

My boyfriend and I have just returned to the game after a long break, and I'm trying to help him figure out an ideal gear set for NIN, but am a little...skeptical of my ability to math it out considering I was never really certain on it to begin with (not sure if some numbers need to be truncated, for example).

I'm looking to see if my math here is sound (which I doubt), and, more importantly, if I'm drawing conclusions in a logical way. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

The comparison is between two different haste/dual wield situations (gear only):

1: 50% dual wield, 40% haste
Delay~ 402 * .5 = 201 * .6 = 120.6
Seconds between attack rounds~ 120.6 / 60 = 2.01
TP/hit~ 5.0 + [(201.6 - 180) * 6.5 / 270] = 5.52, truncated to 5.5
Rounds to get 100TP~ 100 / 5.5 = 18.18 hits = 10 rounds
Seconds to get 100TP~ 10 * 2.01 = 20.1

2: 35% dual wield, 40% haste
Delay~ 402 * .65 = 261.3 * .6 = 156.78
Seconds between attack rounds~ 156.78 / 60 = 2.613
TP/hit~ 5.0 + [(261.3 - 180) * 6.5 / 270] = 6.9572, truncated to 6.9
Rounds to get 100TP~ 100 / 6.9 = 14.49 hits = 8 rounds
Seconds to get 100TP~ 8 * 2.613 = 20.904

Based on this, I'm assuming the first set would be better as it takes less time to get to 100TP while also getting in more hits than the second set? Please correct me if I'm wrong at any stage of this.

[Atoreis]

My boyfriend and I have just returned to the game after a long break, and I'm trying to help him figure out an ideal gear set for NIN, but am a little...skeptical of my ability to math it out considering I was never really certain on it to begin with (not sure if some numbers need to be truncated, for example).

I'm looking to see if my math here is sound (which I doubt), and, more importantly, if I'm drawing conclusions in a logical way. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

The comparison is between two different haste/dual wield situations (gear only):

1: 50% dual wield, 40% haste
Delay~ 402 * .5 = 201 * .6 = 120.6
Seconds between attack rounds~ 120.6 / 60 = 2.01
TP/hit~ 5.0 + [(201.6 - 180) * 6.5 / 270] = 5.52, truncated to 5.5
Rounds to get 100TP~ 100 / 5.5 = 18.18 hits = 10 rounds
Seconds to get 100TP~ 10 * 2.01 = 20.1

2: 35% dual wield, 40% haste
Delay~ 402 * .65 = 261.3 * .6 = 156.78
Seconds between attack rounds~ 156.78 / 60 = 2.613
TP/hit~ 5.0 + [(261.3 - 180) * 6.5 / 270] = 6.9572, truncated to 6.9
Rounds to get 100TP~ 100 / 6.9 = 14.49 hits = 8 rounds
Seconds to get 100TP~ 8 * 2.613 = 20.904

Based on this, I'm assuming the first set would be better as it takes less time to get to 100TP while also getting in more hits than the second set? Please correct me if I'm wrong at any stage of this.

Adding more haste and dual wield is always better then not adding them. There is only 2 rules here:
1. If you are under cap on haste in gear then +1%haste > +1%dual wield
2. Obviously don't add more dual wield if you are at cap of attack speed (20% from original delay)

[Atoreis]

I will make a test for both:
1. Light gorget dmg working or not with Victory smite (Shouldnt be that hard Kirshy. Its a static 2.25 fTP so it on sample of 10-15 it should be easily viewable if damage with gorget exceed max damage w/o gorget. +4.75% its not that low)
2. skillchain damage corresponding to obi in both dark day with dark obi and water day in dark obi. Edit. (Edit. with Blade: hi and /sam)

I am missing light gorget but it shouldn't be a problem to get I soloed many Ul'Yovra for fun maybe I even have 2 organs.

You can expect results at Sunday unless they will need to switch off servers again. If anyone can't wait till Sunday and need to know faster then be my guest and do it yourself


EDIT: Btw I'm pretty surprised that there is no info on elemental obis that they give MDB or MDT (I forgot which ; ; ) on spells that are weak to day in which they are cast (IE: Can use water obi in water day to cut dmg from fire III).

[Shakki]

Adding more haste and dual wield is always better then not adding them. There is only 2 rules here:
1. If you are under cap on haste in gear then +1%haste > +1%dual wield
2. Obviously don't add more dual wield if you are at cap of attack speed (20% from original delay)

Great, thank you for the clarification.

As an addendum to this, assuming you are at the cap for gear haste, would a NIN benefit more from using Loki's Kaftan for the increased crit damage or AF+1 body for the DW+5%?

[kamugi]

How much base damage does a katana with 190 delay need to beat out the 10% crit damage on kamone?
(assuming 70% crit rate, and also with 30% crit rate)
How about a 227 delay?

[Atoreis]

How much base damage does a katana with 190 delay need to beat out the 10% crit damage on kamone?
(assuming 70% crit rate, and also with 30% crit rate)
How about a 227 delay?

Its almost impossible to answer. It will change with your cRatio. You need to also remember that dmg on dual wielded weapon have no impact on your WS. There is also 8acc 8att on Kamome. There is also other things like bonus on this other katana, WSdmg/meleeDMG proportion etc. etc.

Oh yeah forgot to say, Really great signature picture :D

[NynJa]

You need to also remember that dmg on dual wielded weapon have no impact on your WS.

Are you sure about this? We know the offhand hit procs on a WS, why should it not be factored in? Are you saying you could offhand a MK to a Kannagi and when you Hi, your offhand hit will be from Kannagi?

[Atoreis]

Are you sure about this? We know the offhand hit procs on a WS, why should it not be factored in? Are you saying you could offhand a MK to a Kannagi and when you Hi, your offhand hit will be from Kannagi?

I'm not sure but don't try to be logical here. If you would want to be logical then tell me how you can even dual wield in WS with katana that can't do :hi on it's own or even better a dagger. I would gladly test if dual wielded weapon base dmg is counted for calculation of dual wielded hits in WS dmg but I have no idea how. Even with some dmg 1 base weapon it would be very hard to check unless maybe with Smash axe since dual wielded hit should be 50% of WS dmg. Need BST for that w/o double attack with some high dmg axe and some very low dmg sub weapon.

@Kamugi Anyway, aside from WS, I did some simply math to answer You. Ignoring att and acc on Kamome and making some assumption on avg pdif:
1. In abyssea with RR and 70% crit rate, crit ammo and iga neck and capped fSTR you would need 49dmg on 190 delay Katana and 59dmg on 227 delay one.
2. Outside of abyssea 47 on 190 and 57 on 227 but like I said it would need to be much higher to beat 8 acc and att and bonus to WS that Kamome gives.

[Radec]

I'm not sure but don't try to be logical here. If you would want to be logical then tell me how you can even dual wield in WS with katana that can't do :hi on it's own or even better a dagger. I would gladly test if dual wielded weapon base dmg is counted for calculation of dual wielded hits in WS dmg but I have no idea how. Even with some dmg 1 base weapon it would be very hard to check unless maybe with Smash axe since dual wielded hit should be 50% of WS dmg. Need BST for that w/o double attack with some high dmg axe and some very low dmg sub weapon.

Should be easy enough test, Main a DMG1, offhand a DMG<large> and do any single-hit ws, reducing WSC as much as possible. Figure maximum damage from mainhand x2, if total > that, DW Hit uses offhand damage.

Larger range but can test for >2hit ws by mainhanding DMG1 again and offhanding DMG<large> for something like Blade:Ku (Trainee Burin Main).

Edit: Easier alt would be to WS lvl1 stuff alot until mainhand misses, damage difference should be fairly noticeable long as WSC is low.

[kamugi]

The acc and att dont matter to much, I was just wondering about the crit damage part. I was thinking something like -10% ws damage and -7% dot for 70% crit rate would require something like 55 base damage to tp in to beat it out. maybe 65 for 227 delay.

[Atoreis]

The acc and att dont matter to much, I was just wondering about the crit damage part. I was thinking something like -10% ws damage and -7% dot for 70% crit rate would require something like 55 base damage to tp in to beat it out. maybe 65 for 227 delay.

Since there is no 190/55 and 227/65 dmg katanas your problem is solved :D

[Atoreis]

Edit: Easier alt would be to WS lvl1 stuff alot until mainhand misses, damage difference should be fairly noticeable long as WSC is low.

Hmmm, best would be Wasp Sting NIN/something w/o DA mainhanding 1dmg dagger and offhanding Kannagi?

[NynJa]

If you would want to be logical then tell me how you can even dual wield in WS with katana that can't do :hi on it's own or even better a dagger.

Uhh....
Main hand Kannagi
Off hand Mercurial Kris

Practicality aside, I'm pretty sure that set will allow you to use Blade:Hi...what part of my post gave you the idea that I meant doing Hi with MK on main hand?

[Radec]

Hmmm, best would be Wasp Sting NIN/something w/o DA mainhanding 1dmg dagger and offhanding Kannagi?

That'll work for sure.

Edit: /sam probably since you'll be looking at 14+ ws before you miss, likely.