Talking to cops

[Kohan]

I love all you guys with the whole "if you're not guilty you have nothing to hide" attitude. It's people like you who are most likely to become victims of the system. Have fun with that.

Interestingly, I've been honest every time I've been pulled over for speeding, and I've never received a ticket for it. In fact, one time, the officer asked me if I knew what he'd pulled me over for, and I not only apologized for hurrying to work, but specifically told the officer my plate was expired. The officer said "no, your plates are fine," and I said "I'm sorry, officer, but they are expired, I've been meaning to get them renewed and haven't had the time. I'm sorry."

Rather surprised, the cop went to the back of my car -- I was living in Florida at the time, and I don't know if this has changed, but only one plate was required on a civilian vehicle -- and confirmed that I did indeed have an expired sticker. He came back to the window, said he appreciated my honesty, gave me a fix-it ticket and wished me a nice day.

I've been pulled over in major metropolitan areas near Miami and Los Angeles on a variety of occasions and have never been fucked over. Even the one asshole cop I dealt with let me go. I doubt I'm that much of an exception, but honesty worked fine for me.

However, I'm not a retarded asshole who drives while drunk, and if any of you have gotten in trouble while doing so, fuck you, you deserve it.

EDIT: In fact, LAPD has been nicer to me than any other cops I've dealt with. How's that for defying a stereotype?

[Yugl]

However, I'm not a retarded asshole who drives while drunk, and if any of you have gotten in trouble while doing so, fuck you, you deserve it.

As always, Kohan with the win. Someone needs to get this guy MOD status.

[Stumblingdrunk]

Interestingly, I've been honest every time I've been pulled over for speeding,
EDIT: In fact, LAPD has been nicer to me than any other cops I've dealt with. How's that for defying a stereotype?

As always, Kohan with the win. Someone needs to get this guy MOD status.

Yeah, its odd that a cop has been lenient with a female.
Edit: White female

[Nephlite]

To mio:

At least in D.C. as far as I know this happens a lot and usually what ends up happening is you get put on what's called a "Detention Journal". Basically it's a record that the department keeps as a record for non-arrestable offenses (such as a citation for trespassing) or one of those "We locked him up to see him sweat for 24 hours then let him go cause we really didn't have anything on him" instances. Also if you get put in the drunk tank or you're homeless (which 99.9% of the time is useless to arrest them) you get put in the journal so that we can use your referenced behavior as a guide incase we arrest you a bunch of times, etc. (fellow police may think of this as a "Beat Book" or an M.O. intelligence bulletin). The best thing (in my opinion) is it's a strictly For Law Enforcement Use Only journal, cannot by law be disseminated to the public under any circumstance, and will never be subject to a background check or study because it's strictly confidential.

As for the vampire law thing:

According to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA), Field Sobriety Testing (FST) was developed to assist officers in building probable cause to make a DUI arrest based on tried and true tested FST's that are based on the actual science of human behavior both while intoxicated and sober. They actually put the time and effort to get their scientists drunk and utilized Blood Alcohol Content (BAC) sensor devices (Blood/Urine/Breathalyzer) to determine where reaction time and impairment due to alcohol affects the driver (standard .08 on the BAC level). In the course of this, they understand that a lot of people out there can't do a good portion of FST's simply because of impairment (injury, prosthesis, etc.) so they had to develop more techniques to allow officers to have a much greater range of skills at their disposal to allow the best possible course to determine intoxication.

In the example provided, the impairment of the driver is evident due to him not following simple commands of not keeping his head still during the Horizontal Gaze Nystagmus test (pen light in eyes or pen moving back and forth infront of eyes), which is an indicator of intoxication (the not following commands portion). Also there's science that states that the Nystagmus that occurs in the eyes is a sign of impairment and officers are trained to detect this motion, hence it is usually the first FST that is administered, usually before a Portable Breath Test is done. The other tests, 90% of failure in these tests is simply not following instructions. The other portion is failure due to improper administering of the test (signs of a poorly trained officer), or other factors such as fatigue (a somewhat nastier side effect of intoxication or even just fatigue from lack of sleep etc.). The other factors portion is where good training comes in that allows the officer to use his judgment to do other tests to accommodate the other factors. If an officer is adamant about using just the few tests that you see on TV or in reality shows, then that's a sign of lack of training or poor judgment or just could simply be that they're requirements of the officers General Orders.

If anyone read that wall and was interested in other FST's people can do (and yes, sometimes you can ask the officer if you can submit to other tests due to limitations and they -should- accommodate you), off the top of my head there's the Romberg's Test (or Romberg's Internal Clock or Romberg Maneuver, you guys can just Wiki this), the ABC/123 Test, the fingers to nose test, the finger counting test (count to 10 using your fingers by looking at the palms of both hands side by side and one by one starting with left thumb, count to ten by folding the finger to acknowledge the number, then returning it to an outstretched position till you get to 10 or right thumb then go backwards and count the number of misses/recounts), and the always popular side shuffle test (feet together, slide left foot 2 feet to left, slide right foot to match, see if they fall over).

[Kohan]

Yeah, its odd that a cop has been lenient with a female.
Edit: White female

If I were more attractive and not presently sedentary and overweight, I would more immediately believe this. Still, I would not deny that it has no effect at all, but I doubt it is as profound as you would like to think.

If it is, however, I'd say it balances out, considering the opposition I encounter in the work place. Suck it, fuckers.

[rog]

How much opposition could you possibly have in a kitchen?

[Maaglin]

JMC, is this true? Can you do the "are you detaining me or am I free to go" at requests to do a field sobriety test (follow this light with your eyes, or "step out of the car") if you haven't admitted to alcohol consumption?

Yes. But as mentioned, you will more than likely be taken downtown. Not necessarily arrested, but detained for the night in the drunk tank. That's what I mean when I say the cop has already made up his mind by the time he asks for the sobriety tests. Most people feel compelled to comply becuase they think they can "pass" and will be let go. But in reality, these tests aren't set up for you to pass and only serve as a building block for the officer. By the time you get the sobriety tests, you're night is probably already fucked, so why help them out? Cops will usualy not "ask" you to do them, they will act like you have to and that also intimidates a lot of people.

At the end of the day, you want to politely decline almost everything they ask you to do and don't say anything to them. You also have to be especially careful while they are questioning you because they don't have to read you any rights, since you may just be a person of interest and not under arrest at this time. But they can and will use everything you say against you.

And while you do have to submit to a BAC test of some sort, the best one to do is the field breathalyzer, as it's the least reliable. But if you do end up getting arrested, they will do it again at the station on the more accurate machine (forgot it's name) and that's what they use in court. If you get a blood test, remember to get another sample drawn so that you have the option of having it independantly analyzed if you end up needing that in court.

[Salodin]

So what's the consensus exactly on behavior and answers to the police when pulled over for speeding?

[Kohan]

How much opposition could you possibly have in a kitchen?

You clearly haven't the slightest idea how many fudge packers there are in Los Angeles.

[Maaglin]

So what's the consensus exactly on behavior and answers to the police when pulled over for speeding?

Be polite, but don't answer shit.

I believe the video gives some good examples of what to say and what not to say.

Biggest problem is that people think the cops are your friends and that if you eagerly cooperate, that will help you. When a cop is questioning you, he is not your friend and does not have your best interest in mind. He's doing his job and trying to find out incriminating information about you. They will intimidate and sometimes attempt to bully you into cooperating. It's very difficult for most people to continue to firmly yet politely decline to comment when a cop is breathing down your neck.

[archibaldcrane]

Be polite, but don't answer shit.

I believe the video gives some good examples of what to say and what not to say.

Biggest problem is that people think the cops are your friends and that if you eagerly cooperate, that will help you. When a cop is questioning you, he is not your friend and does not have your best interest in mind. He's doing his job and trying to find out incriminating information about you. They will intimidate and sometimes attempt to bully you into cooperating. It's very difficult for most people to continue to firmly yet politely decline to comment when a cop is breathing down your neck.

That's all great, but for speeding, they've got the radar, they have you cold before they even talk to you. Whether you "self-incriminate" is pretty damn meaningless at that point, so you might as well be nice and helpful and try to get on their good side for leniency if your only fear is a speeding ticket (i.e. you don't have drugs in your car/are drunk/whatever)

[archibaldcrane]

Yes. But as mentioned, you will more than likely be taken downtown. Not necessarily arrested, but detained for the night in the drunk tank. That's what I mean when I say the cop has already made up his mind by the time he asks for the sobriety tests. Most people feel compelled to comply becuase they think they can "pass" and will be let go. But in reality, these tests aren't set up for you to pass and only serve as a building block for the officer. By the time you get the sobriety tests, you're night is probably already fucked, so why help them out? Cops will usualy not "ask" you to do them, they will act like you have to and that also intimidates a lot of people.

At the end of the day, you want to politely decline almost everything they ask you to do and don't say anything to them. You also have to be especially careful while they are questioning you because they don't have to read you any rights, since you may just be a person of interest and not under arrest at this time. But they can and will use everything you say against you.

And while you do have to submit to a BAC test of some sort, the best one to do is the field breathalyzer, as it's the least reliable. But if you do end up getting arrested, they will do it again at the station on the more accurate machine (forgot it's name) and that's what they use in court. If you get a blood test, remember to get another sample drawn so that you have the option of having it independantly analyzed if you end up needing that in court.

Basically why I asked is that I was under the impression (from somewhere) that police technically have to have "reasonable suspicion" that you are intoxicated to actually administer a breathalyzer - be that admission that you had a couple drinks, or poor performance on a field sobriety test of some sort, or reckless driving/weaving.

I was under the impression that a simple pullover for speeding that isn't combined with any of those things couldn't result in a breathalyzer unless "reasonable suspicion of intoxication" was gained. I know that if you refuse a breathalyzer they will take you in, what I don't know is if you can refuse the field sobriety test (and therefore if they have no other evidence pointing to intoxication, they can't ask for a breathalyzer and therefore you are not detained).

Basically the question is "Can an officer ask for a breathalyzer (and if denied, detain you) after any traffic stop in any circumstances? Or is there a certain legal suspicion of intoxication that much be ascertained before they can ask for a breathalyzer and detain you for refusing?"

Or, to put it in really really concise terms - what's the point of the fucking field sobriety tests? The breathalyzer takes 5 seconds to administer - what's the purpose of all the hullabaloo when that's the most accurate way of finding out what you want to know in the field?

[Nephlite]

Basically why I asked is that I was under the impression (from somewhere) that police technically have to have "reasonable suspicion" that you are intoxicated to actually administer a breathalyzer - be that admission that you had a couple drinks, or poor performance on a field sobriety test of some sort, or reckless driving/weaving.

Need something along those lines to administer a breathalyzer. Another thing you need that is usually a requirement for most jurisdictions is a smell of alcoholic beverages on your person.

I was under the impression that a simple pullover for speeding that isn't combined with any of those things couldn't result in a breathalyzer unless "reasonable suspicion of intoxication" was gained. I know that if you refuse a breathalyzer they will take you in, what I don't know is if you can refuse the field sobriety test (and therefore if they have no other evidence pointing to intoxication, they can't ask for a breathalyzer and therefore you are not detained).

See above for first part. A breathalyzer is in fact a Field Sobriety Test but it's not a requirement for DUI/DWI arrest. If you refuse ANY of the Field Sobriety Testing (breathalyzer or whatever), you'll be arrested. The logic is a breathalyzer is in fact a machine and is subject to failure(user or mechanical) and can be fooled and cannot detect other forms of intoxication other than alcoholic beverage consumption. You can still be arrested for DUI for being high on marijuana/THC if you fail all the Field Sobriety Testing because the techniques are designed to show a level of impairment that a breathalyzer cannot. Like I said it's not required for them to breathalyze you to arrest you for DUI/DWI. What IS required for the charge is the blood draw. Without that, you can't charge someone with any DUI/DWI as that's the only scientific method that is proven and reliable in court (which you can't refuse once you get locked up).

In summary, yes the officer needs some kind of reasonable suspicion to stop you for a DUI/DWI charge and that requirement can be modified in cases such as your driving with a broken tail light, you get stopped and the officer smells alcohol on your breath. He's required by law to make sure you're ok to drive (therefore fulfilling the reasonable suspicion requirement). The point of the FST's is not to draw it out or make it more difficult, it's there to eliminate any doubt you were intoxicated by proving you can't do the (simple) tests that show impairment. It's all about the evidence and what the officer can prove and articulate.

[SwampdonkeyPLD]

Or, to put it in really really concise terms - what's the point of the fucking field sobriety tests? The breathalyzer takes 5 seconds to administer - what's the purpose of all the hullabaloo when that's the most accurate way of finding out what you want to know in the field?

Some cop cars have camera's in them and what better way to convince a jury you're drunk than show them a video? Or even just describing the failure to perform those tests. The hardest DUI to prove is when the dude reeks of alcohol, might have some slurred speech, red eyes etc, and then refuses all the tests. Other than the cop saying those things, there's no evidence.

[Gorki]

If you're stupid enough to smoke weed in your car you deserve to get caught.

Yes, but at times it can't be avoided. Weather, non-smoking residence, travel, buying, etc. The only time i've ever had a cop pull me out of a car for smelling pot was a day when I borrowed my dads Bronco and i'll be damned if I'd ever smoked pot in there once. He smoked a lot when he was younger and knows the smell, i was 16 and still cared if he approved of what I did QQ etc. Anyways, a cop pulls me over see's i'm smoking a cigarette comes to the window and says he smells marijuana, and says if I fess up he won't take me to jail. As soon as I said "Officer I have no drugs on me" he told me to get out the the truck and put me in the backseat while he went through my car for about 30mins.

I felt like just because i denied it made him more determined to search and look for anything. Oh and his reason for pulling me over? My license plate looked loose.

[Fhqwghads]

It can be avoided. Wait until you're someplace where you can do it and not have to be worried about being caught, or just don't do it. It's not rocket science.

[ZarakiKujata]

Yes, but at times it can't be avoided. Weather, non-smoking residence, travel, buying, etc. The only time i've ever had a cop pull me out of a car for smelling pot was a day when I borrowed my dads Bronco and i'll be damned if I'd ever smoked pot in there once. He smoked a lot when he was younger and knows the smell, i was 16 and still cared if he approved of what I did QQ etc. Anyways, a cop pulls me over see's i'm smoking a cigarette comes to the window and says he smells marijuana, and says if I fess up he won't take me to jail. As soon as I said "Officer I have no drugs on me" he told me to get out the the truck and put me in the backseat while he went through my car for about 30mins.

I felt like just because i denied it made him more determined to search and look for anything. Oh and his reason for pulling me over? My license plate looked loose.

Close/lock your door as you get out if shit like this happens. Makes his search unlawful since he doesn't have your 'implicit' consent especially for bullshit like a loose license plate.

[Gorki]

Wait until you're someplace where you can do it and not have to be worried about being caught, or just don't do it.

Yeah good idea, I never thought of that.

[Melchiah]

Going with letters, it's always avoidable.

[SwampdonkeyPLD]

Close/lock your door as you get out if shit like this happens. Makes his search unlawful since he doesn't have your 'implicit' consent especially for bullshit like a loose license plate.

Wrong. If anything that gives him cause to search. Just tell the cop he doesn't have your permission. If he still searches then maybe you can bring a 1983 claim, although good luck finding a lawyer to bring it for something like that.

And the loose license plate has nothing to do w/ the search viability pretty much, unless there's no law against that.