Letter from the Producer, III (02/17/2011) + Player's Poll

[Lucavi]

Who said anything about placing an emphasis on it? Should be equal to instanced content. More and more it seems like everyones problem with "open world" stuff is SE's shitty implementation of it, not the actual idea of it. There are proper ways to implement any type of content where you don't need bots and hacks and 3hr camps.

You're exactly right, and that's one reason I'm digging Rift. Plenty of open-world content that has meaning, tangible rewards, as well as instances. Its more readily apparent at endgame, when the 10-man open world events pop up, but there are already open world NMs with long timers that exist in the world and that are encouraged. Both factions also have the ability to attack the same Mob, and one another (on PVP servers), so it gets out all that aggression that XI LSes loved to engage in with trying to kill each other to "rightfully" claim the mob.

Glad we're on the same page, CP.

While I certainly don't expect XIV to pull a 180 and completely change its design function, I'd say that before people can start crying about them moving away from world NMs, they need to actually, you know, provide an alternative -to- world NMs. Leves don't count. They're working on instances, but they aren't here yet. Until they are, world NM fans have no grounds for their complaints. They should enjoy the current trio of HNMs in the game and savor that feeling of "being better" than the next guy because they claimed first.

[Selamis]

To be fair there really isn't any battle pre-NMs that communication during battle is going to be vital or where fights last more than a minute. Leves are retarded easy, behest is the same and so is grinding; even the faction NMs are a joke. If you're in an "endgame" shell that kills the roaming NMs you should be using some short of voice communication to be effective imo. Seems silly not to.

True for this stage of the game. They are working on things though, they've told us what they've done so far and what they plan to do so in the future this is going to be more important I think. In a year's time let's say, content should be much better and might need on the fly adjustments, depending on how the direction of the game is shaped in these next few months.

[Gadritan]

Nothing in XI was challenging other than PW and that was the problem.

Common misconception that irks me. Originally, there was quite a bit that was very challenging. Kings weren't just a cake walk from day 1. Wyrms sure as hell weren't (remember how big of a deal it was when Vrtra went down on your server?). Bv2 pre-zerg. Various BCNMs (DM, Airship, etc). Hell, even sky was quite the challenge initially.

The players and mechanics continued to evolve making things much easier, yet very little was ever altered to increase the difficulty of, or phase out existing content. A lot of people who talk about how easy everything is waltzed in long after all the ideal strats were established and classes got boosted in various ways. To say nothing in XI was challenging is far from the truth. To say there's nothing challenging now, I'll give you that.

[Lucavi]

I remember AV being pretty damned tough. Just because you could cheat and kill things didn't mean the actual encounters were easy... you just cheated. AV was tough.

[Cichy]

I take XI's difficulty over this game any day. Nice thing about XI was that so many times even fights that you did many times went differently. Fafnir spamming wing, Tiamat being a bitch and roaring all the time, etc, etc. Also, sure you could've killed some mobs with full alliance as some people did but it was fun to figure out how to kill them low man like Jailer of Faith, Fortitude, Ix'drk, etc.
There was plenty of things in XI that you could've challenged yourself with is what I'm trying to say where in this game there really isn't.

[Grey Jorildyn]

Agree or not, exclusivity of content was one of the factors that kept players interested in XI.

Exactly what content was exclusive in FFXI? If you're referring to the bots that made claims exclusive to a certain few linkshells, then sure, you can call that about as "exclusive" as open world content got in FFXI.

Now if you're referring to its instanced content, I don't follow. Every player had access to every instance. The only things I can recall being really exclusive in FFXI was Dynamis when first put in the game (needed Lv65 and that was a grind to hit at the time), Limbus (which required basic Sea access), and Einherjar (v1.0 when chambers were fucking terrible, bosses impossible to beat, and everyone needed every feather). All that got toned down within a reasonable amount of time and nothing was exclusive when you had a group to go and do stuff. Their reigns of terror were very short-lived.

Exclusivity of content does not keep people playing FFXI right now. Nothing is exclusive about Abyssea. From the inception of Dynamis to a full year after its implementation, how many relics were there? BG's relic thread was lucky to see a relic a month. It was all speculation at the time. Abyssea has been out about a year now (I am not sure, I don't follow timetables for XI), and how many Empyreans have been made? You don't need exact numbers, only to recognize that within two 365 periods involving the creation of top-tier weapons, there are significantly more of one type than the other.

So I disagree that exclusivity is what kept players interested in XI. Having played for six years myself, and having a relic and pretty much everything I ever wanted in the game, I can honestly say exclusivity never kept me playing the game. I wanted a defending ring because it was good, not because it made me exclusive to own one. The same could be said for every piece of gear I ever owned. Besides that, I never got that feeling from most of the players in my linkshell. There were plenty on server that did enjoy exclusivity, but they were always selfish bastards who hopped around never getting what they truly wanted and burning so many bridges a long the way, server transferring was their only option when that popped up.

[Patriarch]

Open world content is the reason FFXI was as good as it was.

As said, in the early days when the fights were hard, the competition to get said NM, and the feeling of watching that ever-elusive drop sit in the loot pool. How I miss that.

Listening to all this rabble about how FFXIV needs to be like wow, or aion, or rift, negative. Keep FF to its roots, and if people dont like it, they can crawl back to wow and complain on FF forums about it. Bring back my fafnir

[Elrina]

You could kill Odin every 14 days. With a chance (albeit a small one) to get abjs. from any chamber leading up to him. Just curious but how fast do you think people should be able to get "the best stuff in the game"? Ridill is a poor example but back when it was king how often were people getting them? How about kclub?

Equal access. If Fafnir pops once a day, and people get a (chance) at a Ridill once a day, then everyone should get a chance at a Ridill once a day. I've no problem with there being instances and open world both (I enjoy both), but players shouldn't be able to exclude players from accessing content just as often as they do. If it requires putting the rarest and best gear all in instances, then so be it.

Listening to this shit sometimes is like watching a bad tv show. Complaining about people being able to obtain more of the elite items, due to the fact that they have the ability to play more is fffffff. To me that is like a part-time waitress who works 4 hours a day, complains that the Sales Broker, who works 12 hours a day, makes more money than her. I know this is a video game, but the difficulty shouldn't be dumbed down due to a few players who like to whine. FFXI did it well, and I do not know why SE has strayed from that path.

This has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion at hand. It isn't about being willing to put in the time, it's about equal access to content. It's not about preventing people who can play more from being more successful, their ability to play more will assure that. But even if someone has less time to play, they should have the option available at some point to experience every aspect of the game, and not be prevented from it by people who are able to play all the time anyway.

If people (read: former FFXI players) seriously feel "cheated" because the game becomes instanced and horribly implemented open world content become defunct, then they need to go out there and play other games. The whole mmo community isn't FF online. People need to quit living in a box and better themselves by learning about other game systems and how they work and what is successful about them. Get real bro.

I'm not against this at all. I want open world content, but I can live without it if it's necessary to maintain a solid game balance. I want open world, but it needs to be done properly, because it being done poorly would be worse than not putting it in at all.

Agree or not, exclusivity of content was one of the factors that kept players interested in XI.

This isn't really true. It is for some, I suppose, but only for the people who shouldn't be catered to by the devs anyway, and I already explained why I believed that. That said, Grey's post above mine sums up the rest of why it's an inaccurate statement, so I'll defer.

See also: Why I am vastly in favor of instanced group content that rewards cooperation and teamwork and discourages anti-social behavior. It doesn't remove the exclusivity that motivates some people, it promotes a social experience focused on working together. And it still promotes competition, but of the "we killed PW and you can't" variety instead of the "we outclaimed you on KB" variety.

I write too many long posts, so I'm going to skip the totally badass analogy I was cooking up surrounding increasingly rare and ridiculous legwear, and their impact on wooing the ladies (no women on the internet, in any case). Since we know the most important part of getting rare and awesome gear is afking in town with it on.

If instances is what it takes, then give us instances. Like I've said a few times now, after all this discussion over it I've come to the conclusion that while I do really want open world content, if the only way to balance the game properly without granting players the ability to exclude other players from content is through instances, then let it be so.

PM me that analogy, I don't mind the long posts. :3

Maybe they weren't challenging in the later years. But earlier in FFXI's day HNM's we're challenging. Albeit, after killing them 300 times, yeah it did get a little easier, as it will be with any MMO. But I would much rather camp, and kill hnms as compared to doing nothing but instanced shit. I think Endgame is the main reason why FFXI is still up and running. If you take away the challenge of getting the NM's, you are going to make it too easy.

There is nothing challenging about being forced to compete with people who cheat. That kind of cancer should be abolished from MMOs entirely, and the people who want it denied. Being excluded from content by people who claim it's the only way to have challenging content (as if that were even remotely true), and yet they themselves feel the need to cheat at that content (if you want it because it's challenging, why are you cheating?), destroys the entire argument that it's challenging. It isn't challenging. It's a waste of time. The challenge should be in completing the content, not in accessing it. And it being the only source of the best gear in a game is the worst possible kind of design.

[Grey Jorildyn]

Open world content is the reason FFXI was as good as it was.

Ironically, it was also the reason it was as bad as it was.

[Alderaan]

Exactly why i'm digging what Trion is doing with Rift endgame Elrina. The raid content is built for the 2% crowd, but everyone has a chance to attempt it.

[Cichy]

Exactly what content was exclusive in FFXI? If you're referring to the bots that made claims exclusive to a certain few linkshells, then sure, you can call that about as "exclusive" as open world content got in FFXI.

Now if you're referring to its instanced content, I don't follow. Every player had access to every instance. The only things I can recall being really exclusive in FFXI was Dynamis when first put in the game (needed Lv65 and that was a grind to hit at the time), Limbus (which required basic Sea access), and Einherjar (v1.0 when chambers were fucking terrible, bosses impossible to beat, and everyone needed every feather). All that got toned down within a reasonable amount of time and nothing was exclusive when you had a group to go and do stuff. Their reigns of terror were very short-lived.

Exclusivity of content does not keep people playing FFXI right now. Nothing is exclusive about Abyssea. From the inception of Dynamis to a full year after its implementation, how many relics were there? BG's relic thread was lucky to see a relic a month. It was all speculation at the time. Abyssea has been out about a year now (I am not sure, I don't follow timetables for XI), and how many Empyreans have been made? You don't need exact numbers, only to recognize that within two 365 periods involving the creation of top-tier weapons, there are significantly more of one type than the other.

So I disagree that exclusivity is what kept players interested in XI. Having played for six years myself, and having a relic and pretty much everything I ever wanted in the game, I can honestly say exclusivity never kept me playing the game. I wanted a defending ring because it was good, not because it made me exclusive to own one. The same could be said for every piece of gear I ever owned. Besides that, I never got that feeling from most of the players in my linkshell. There were plenty on server that did enjoy exclusivity, but they were always selfish bastards who hopped around never getting what they truly wanted and burning so many bridges a long the way, server transferring was their only option when that popped up.

I guess I worded it wrong. By exclusivity I meant things like people pursuing relics and items that were hard to obtain. I also had a relic like you and to be honest I would've still played if most of my friends dint quit.
It's nice that empyrean weapons are easily obtainable now but it's nice to have things like relics, d rings, etc that are just few out there and are something to strive for. There has to be some kind of separation between people. Also, lets not blame everything on bots, there were plenty of endgame shells out there who given plenty of people chance. Some people were just plain stupid and did not understand mechanics of XI outside of exping and they did not try to learn. Not everyone deserves same thing.

[Lucavi]

FF isn't the only game to have those, though. WoW had its oranges and the like. I don't think any sane person would argue against having them in, but the way that they were obtained was just... exploitative. You essentially had some linkshells that were basically slave labor; having a bunch of blinded rookies tagging along in (false) hopes that they'd obtain a relic, while the LS leaders knew good and well that only those at the top would be sponsored or even supported.

There's got to be a more fair way than that. That was my only real problem with relics; certainly not the time or dedication it took to obtain one. I should know; I had 95% of what I needed to get my Gugnir until I got bored post-WotG and rolled out.

[Hyan]

I haven't read anything that ZAM has said, but honestly the main reason I want auto attack is so that I can talk while fighting. I don't mind having to press buttons to do special moves, but at least generic swinging should be auto, so that you can respond to party or linkshell or friends in the middle of a fight. Not everyone uses Vent, so communication in game is still vital, and if you have to stop attacking to say something, that's hp that you are losing by getting hit without hitting back. I think that's why the feature alone is important to add.

Not to ridicule you or anything but this is really quite a bad reason to add it. It's like you're saying you want to be less involved in the game and turn it into an MSN Fantasy. Like you said Vent is already out there and if people don't want to use it just because, their loss. I don't think it'll fly in this day and age that the gameplay is dumbed down because people want to talk more when you don't really have to write novels during gameplay.

But on the other hand, having auto-attack is no guarantee that you will have time to chat. They may as well change the skill cooldowns and such so that you'll be pressing buttons just as fast as before, only now you do more skills instead of basic attacks.

Granted, if they try to flesh out the gameplay some other way to make up for the loss of push-to-attack then I guess that's fine. So far doesn't look like it though.

[Grey Jorildyn]

There has to be some kind of separation between people. Also, lets not blame everything on bots, there were plenty of endgame shells out there who given plenty of people chance. Some people were just plain stupid and did not understand mechanics of XI outside of exping and they did not try to learn. Not everyone deserves same thing.

I wholeheartedly disagree with both your statements in bold. Why? Because I'm a bit of a humanist I suppose. I believe that people should be allowed to obtain all that they deserve if they put the work in to obtain it. Too often, bots prevents that. They were a major blame factor and that is undeniable. Any old "end game shell" isn't necessarily good, nor has good members. Giving people a shot isn't as good as having skilled people if that's what you're getting at. Just because someone is stupid doesn't mean they don't deserve a ridill--but I'd certainly like to see it fall into "smarter" hands, sure.

[Lucavi]

If you do the honest work, you should receive the honest gear. That simple. Everyone deserves the same chance to attain the same item, provided they're willing to put in the work. That's probably the biggest reason I favor instances over other forms of end-game activity. Everyone gets a fair shot, and in the end, it all comes down to the players. That's in theory, as there are always things like addons that can simplify encounters, but the overall point still stands.

[Kaylia]

Common misconception that irks me. Originally, there was quite a bit that was very challenging. Kings weren't just a cake walk from day 1. Wyrms sure as hell weren't (remember how big of a deal it was when Vrtra went down on your server?). Bv2 pre-zerg. Various BCNMs (DM, Airship, etc). Hell, even sky was quite the challenge initially.

The players and mechanics continued to evolve making things much easier, yet very little was ever altered to increase the difficulty of, or phase out existing content. A lot of people who talk about how easy everything is waltzed in long after all the ideal strats were established and classes got boosted in various ways. To say nothing in XI was challenging is far from the truth. To say there's nothing challenging now, I'll give you that.

The only (aritificial) challenges FFXI offered was the amount of attempts you could get on a boss combined with a few random numbers that could fuck you up.


If your party wasn't filled with direction challenged monkey who afk every 30sec midfight, everything was a joke.

I haven't read anything that ZAM has said, but honestly the main reason I want auto attack is so that I can talk while fighting. I don't mind having to press buttons to do special moves, but at least generic swinging should be auto, so that you can respond to party or linkshell or friends in the middle of a fight. Not everyone uses Vent, so communication in game is still vital, and if you have to stop attacking to say something, that's hp that you are losing by getting hit without hitting back. I think that's why the feature alone is important to add.

This is exactly why people in FFXI were bad. No one was paying fucking attention because they didn't have to.

[Charismatic]

The only (aritificial) challenges FFXI offered was the amount of attempts you could get on a boss combined with a few random numbers that could fuck you up.

No. The guy is right.
HNMs in FFXI were legitimately challenging before we got buffed yet the mobs stayed the same.

Even Kirin had his time to shine at one point.

[Kaylia]

No. The guy is right.
HNMs in FFXI were legitimately challenging before we got buffed yet the mobs stayed the same.

Even Kirin had his time to shine at one point.

Which part was hard? Erasing the tank that was kiting? Outranging stonaga? Zerging the 4 gods? Surviving astral flow? Fighting it for 2 hours straigth?

Almost nothing in FFXI was above mindless. When there was a small step up in difficulty over the usual xp party, half of the playerbase would just turn into headless chicken and do retarded shit. That's what made it hard.


The only challenge was to figure out a proper strategy, but after the first year, we had pretty much everything covered already. Kite this, blink tank that, manaburn this and zerg that.

[Amastacia]

I'm kind of with Kaylia on this one.

At least until near the end of ToAU.

Most mobs/bosses/what have you could be easily killed by small modifications on a small number of strategies, and usually what made a boss harder was that it just had the ability to kill you faster.

Not that it ever *completely* went away, but it at least somewhat started getting addressed. Odin, for example, wasn't tremendously hard, but required some additional strategy compared to, say, Khim or Cerb. Or at least could benefit from a bit more strategy.

I guess for me the yardstick is pretty much "do you do repetitively do one thing the whole fight, and is it the same basic thing you've done on a bunch of other mobs?" with allowance for dealing with a 2hr or 2hrs.

[Hyan]

The game definitely would have benefited from some gimmicks to make fights more interesting, but the dev team did this with the events themselves with more or less success. I hope it doesn't go completely away with Yoshida.

Middleground?! Dayum.

At least they could take the idea further with leves. Time limit is already there, now make it actually matter and be more creative with the design. "You have 30 minutes to do X, Y, and Z. If you're fucking bad-ass you can finish all three, but if you suck you can at least be able to finish one objective. The faster you finish the more you are rewarded."

And since it's leves we're talking about (repeatable), randomize the fuck out of it like Nyzul. Have 5-10 objectives initially, 20 mob types scenarios & bosses, and mix them up randomly. Later they can just increase the # of possible objectives, mob types and bosses in patches.