No class in WI as teachers protest union-busting governor

[Tifrece]

This explains why people were honking their car horns all day yesterday while I was at work.

Buncha people on the intersection N Oakland and E capitol here in Milwaukee with signs and shit.

[Ferion]

A conumdrum isn't it? Sometimes unions get in the way of specific policy goals, but without unions workers either get chafted or they don't live as comfortable existences as those happy robber baron bankers that still seem to keep their jobs after collapsing the economy, without the help of unions.

This. Except an even bigger conundrum is the fact that in the long run, unions create unemployment. So while it is necessary for unions to exist to make sure the workers aren't getting shafted by the big business owners, those same union workers are turning around and complaining that unemployment is so high and how terrible the economy is doing.

[Not Kuno]

http://cuadie.files.wordpress.com/20...e_children.jpg

Good teachers should get paid better, the bad ones need to GTFO.

How do you define good teachers? How do you put a system in place that will fairly reward/punish the teachers? The school administrators will do it? Someone out of school? It's easy to talk to talk but putting something like this in place isn't possible.

[Olo401]

the most fucked up thing about this is that if it gets through, it will stick, and all the people that voted to pass it will get reelected by the people they're fucking

I wouldn't be so sure about that. Keep in mind that this was a wave election driven mostly by poor economic conditions that are festering and an extremely vocal minority of corporate-funded racists, bigots and faux-libertarian dipshits. A lot of independent minded middle-class people, including unionized workers, gave Walker his miniscule advantage at the polls, knocked Feingold out of his Senate seat and drove the state house to switch control. You can almost guarantee that this will be reversed in the next election cycle, and that Walker will be recalled at the first possible moment next January.

p.s. this isn't just about teachers

It never was just about teachers. This is about Republicans consolidating their base of power by eliminating a major source of their opposition's fundraising. They do the same thing with tort reform.

This. Except an even bigger conundrum is the fact that in the long run, unions create unemployment. So while it is necessary for unions to exist to make sure the workers aren't getting shafted by the big business owners, those same union workers are turning around and complaining that unemployment is so high and how terrible the economy is doing.

What a load of bullshit. Unions don't create unemployment at all. Greedy corporate executives and scumbags like Walker do by choosing to get rid of jobs completely rather than concede even a grain of sand to the working class that has VOLUNTEERED to give up truckloads of sand. Walker would rather give $140 million in kickbacks to his corporate backers and then break the unions rather than accept $137 million in concessions from the unions to help balance the budget.

[Bingbong]

I haven't read the Wisconsin teacher's contract, but I'll almost put a guarantee on their conduct the last two days being considered in breach of it. One of the first articles of a labor agreement is usually one that prohibits lockouts, strikes, and any other work stoppages during the current agreement.

Secondly, wtf... they don't even put in 1% towards their pension, and not even 15% of their healthcare? That's a sweet friggin deal. I'd be kicking and screaming too if someone wanted to take away my candy.

[Ksandra]

How do you define good teachers? How do you put a system in place that will fairly reward/punish the teachers? The school administrators will do it? Someone out of school? It's easy to talk to talk but putting something like this in place isn't possible.

this ^

What a load of bullshit. Unions don't create unemployment at all. Greedy corporate executives and scumbags like Walker do by choosing to get rid of jobs completely rather than concede even a grain of sand to the working class that has VOLUNTEERED to give up truckloads of sand. Walker would rather give $140 million in kickbacks to his corporate backers and then break the unions rather than accept $137 million in concessions from the unions to help balance the budget.

and this ^

There are no teacher jobs because gov't keep cutting down the budgets smaller and smaller = less money to pay for teachers = class sizes get bigger and they cut out the "extra" classes (ie. music, art, p.e., etc.).


Now don't get me wrong, there are teachers who shouldn't be teaching, I've seen it. Teachers that are past retirement that aren't forced to giving out worksheets. No system is perfect though, and it would suck worse without it.

[TacoTaru]

Kuno has a point. Defining what exactly is a good teacher is not as simple as saying Teacher A's kid scored the best so he's obviously the best. Couple that with new teachers typically get larger majority of bad kids. I don't know how it is right now in other states, but I know here locally teachers spending around two-six weeks of the six-six week periods of the year teaching the standardized tests they have to administer.

[Ksandra]

Kuno has a point. Defining what exactly is a good teacher is not as simple as saying Teacher A's kid scored the best so he's obviously the best. Couple that with new teachers typically get larger majority of bad kids. I don't know how it is right now in other states, but I know here locally teachers spending around two-six weeks of the six-six week periods of the year teaching the standardized tests they have to administer.

not only that but students with special needs are not exempt from state testing, if they can't read, you have to speak the test to them. Every student learns different, and has a different capacity to learn, and not everyone wants to learn. And considering they have mixed all those kids up in 30+ classrooms, it is way to hard to judge how well the teacher is doing.




Ontop of that, parents no longer have respect for teachers, or side with teachers, teaching their kids (whether they know it or not) to not respect the teachers either, making teachers into babysitters as well.

[Weeks]

I haven't read the Wisconsin teacher's contract, but I'll almost put a guarantee on their conduct the last two days being considered in breach of it. One of the first articles of a labor agreement is usually one that prohibits lockouts, strikes, and any other work stoppages during the current agreement.

Secondly, wtf... they don't even put in 1% towards their pension, and not even 15% of their healthcare? That's a sweet friggin deal. I'd be kicking and screaming too if someone wanted to take away my candy.

I'd be kicking and screaming if I went to college and got a dead-end job making as much as a teacher, sans the cushy benefits, with no hope of anything better than a cost-of-living wage increase to show for my degree.

[Olo401]

They weren't required to put it in. That doesn't mean they didn't deliberately overpay like any wise investor does. A teacher that has tenure and experience built up will get paid much more than someone who's new to the job. This is why the change to 5.8% doesn't matter except for new hires who make the salary minimum.

Here's an example for you. Let's say that salary minimum is $30k/year, which is probably high considering Wisconsin is a more rural state. 5.8% of that to the pension, not a big deal.. Union dues is maybe 2%. Then 15% to health insurance premiums or $4500 yearly, and I bet the plan has a $500-1000 deductible. - yeah ok if that's a "sweet friggin deal" I'd love to know what you're paying out for your insurance. Anyways, now you're looking at about $21-22k/year salary before taxes and life expenses. That's barely $10 an hour, being paid to people who've gone through years of expensive schooling so that they could have the HONOR of being a teacher. At least they have health insurance until something major happens and they can't pay the deductible.

[Ferion]

What a load of bullshit. Unions don't create unemployment at all. Greedy corporate executives and scumbags like Walker do by choosing to get rid of jobs completely rather than concede even a grain of sand to the working class that has VOLUNTEERED to give up truckloads of sand. Walker would rather give $140 million in kickbacks to his corporate backers and then break the unions rather than accept $137 million in concessions from the unions to help balance the budget.

I'm pretty sure I didn't say that unions were the only thing that created unemployment in my post. While you're right that CEOs and other aspects of big business and government create unemployment, unions in the long run do in fact create unemployment also. Wages are determined by the marginal product of labor and supply and demand for labor. So when unions push to increase wages above the competitive rate, this causes a large gap between supply and demand for labor. This causes the economy in the long-run to deviate from its natural rate of unemployment. So no, it's not bullshit that unions create unemployment in the long-run. This article by Larry Summers can probably describe it a little better than I can:

http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/Unemployment.html

[Plow]

I haven't read the Wisconsin teacher's contract, but I'll almost put a guarantee on their conduct the last two days being considered in breach of it. One of the first articles of a labor agreement is usually one that prohibits lockouts, strikes, and any other work stoppages during the current agreement.

They're using up sick days.


Unions causing unemployment is literally a libertarian distortion of the reality that the people in charge would rather overwork and underpay a smaller force than give up tiny percentages of their own income.

libertyfund links? really? rofl

[Dimmauk]

You guys are acting like you have never had a shitty teacher. There 5 teachers in my family, so this topic always comes up. They talk about teaching, and not just showing kids. They talk about paying attention to kids so they are engaged. They talk about kids helping other kids learn, and how important it is to not just go through the motions. At any job, most management can spot a crappy employee, and what they need training on. Why dont we do this with teachers?

[Ksandra]

Wages are determined by the marginal product of labor and supply and demand for labor. So when unions push to increase wages above the competitive rate, this causes a large gap between supply and demand for labor.

Doesn't apply to teacher's union at all. They are not making a fuckton of money, nor are they in a competition with other unions or non-union workers. There is no "competitive rate"

[Daydreamer]

You guys are acting like you have never had a shitty teacher. There 5 teachers in my family, so this topic always comes up. They talk about teaching, and not just showing kids. They talk about paying attention to kids so they are engaged. They talk about kids helping other kids learn, and how important it is to not just go through the motions. At any job, most management can spot a crappy employee, and what they need training on. Why dont we do this with teachers?

They do that with teachers. It's just it's nearly impossible to fire them even if it's noticed.

Check out - http://www.icefilms.info/ip.php?v=124949& it explains the basics of the unions.

I'm not quoting that movie is documentary gold or whatever, but the part about unions and how the impact the firing process was eye opening.

[Ferion]

Doesn't apply to teacher's union at all. They are not making a fuckton of money, nor are they in a competition with other unions or non-union workers. There is no "competitive rate"

Competitive rate is basically the equilibrium rate. Wages will be set where the demand for labor is equal to the supply for labor. So while I see what you mean with how there's no competition, there still is a competitive rate. It's just not what the name implies.

[Correction]

How do you define good teachers? How do you put a system in place that will fairly reward/punish the teachers? The school administrators will do it? Someone out of school? It's easy to talk to talk but putting something like this in place isn't possible.

I am amused by the juxtaposition of 'It's easy to talk [about teacher merit pay]' and the throwaway addition of '[teacher merit pay] isn't possible.'

[Ksandra]

Competitive rate is basically the equilibrium rate. Wages will be set where the demand for labor is equal to the supply for labor. So while I see what you mean with how there's no competition, there still is a competitive rate. It's just not what the name implies.

even then there is no set idea for a labor to supply ratio. how do you put a value on knowledge? And I wouldn't call teachers wages being too high, as someone said your training has to equate to something. Teaching definitely isn't worth minimum wage. Which would be my counter that the teachers union doesn't really fall into the "standard issues" with other unions.

[Olo401]

http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2...um.php?ref=fpa

Following a walkout by the state Senate Democrats, depriving Republicans of the three-fifths majority needed to pass the budget and its controversial anti-public union provisions, the NBC affiliate in Madison now reports that sources say the Dems have left the state entirely. This comes after the state Senate majority leader said that the State Patrol could be called in to round up the Dems.
...
"I know the whereabouts of not a single Democratic senator," said (Dem. Party communications director Graeme) Zielinski. "I do not know what latitude they're on, or know what longitude they're on. I assume they're in this hemisphere, I'll say that."

Where's Tom Delay when you need him to call Homeland Security? Oh right he's on his way to jail..

[Restrat]

1) Demand for teachers is set by the state/local government based on number of students
2) there aren't enough teachers (http://www2.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ope/pol/tsa.pdf)
3)
4) teachers are overpaid and need to have their benefits cut

I'm wondering what goes in number three?

edit: wisconsin has a shortage in "math, music, reading, and sciences" teachers currently