No class in WI as teachers protest union-busting governor

[aurik]

No, wrong. You missed a vital point.

I didn't miss it, the lack of a profit motive is a problem with the employer (ie the state), not the workers. They don't deserve to be stripped of their rights because the state operation is dysfunctional.

So go cry about it and design a better oversight rather than push for laws to strip people of their rights.

Furthermore, this created a closed loop between politicians and union leaders at the negotiating table, where union leaders would champion a politician in return for favorable laws and wages. Incidentally, these politicians were all democrats and unions are not shy about using their member's dues to fund them. Yes, I know about PACs. PACs only apply for direct contributions. If you use your googl-fu, you can find that public unions use 527s and other loopholes to circumvent FEC laws and regulations. In my opinion, this is the only reason why Walker is doing what he is doing.

First off, how is this ANY different than what corporations currently do? Corporation bankrolls politically amenable candidate, and upon winning said candidate pushes legislation that favors the corporation. Happens all the time, both above board and under the table. Of course, attempts at politiccal campaign finance legislation has run into severe roadblocks in the form of constitutional challenges.

Also, unions are heavily restricted with what they can do with their funding (as opposed to what corporations can do with their profits, which is virtually unlimited), and if they're breaking the law then why aren't they being prosecuted. If they're abusing loopholes then why don't we close those loopholes. Stripping them of their raison d'etre because some of them are involved in malfeasance is a bit extreme, and just a little obscene.

You forget or simply didn't know, that state/federal employees have civil protection. Which guarantees fair pay, due process, etc. And this should not be confused with collective bargaining, which is something entirely different. Not to mention the constitutional right to organize, etc.

Oh I'm sorry, having pay, due process, and benefits set by fiat by a legislature is as effective as allowing workers to collectively bargain. We went through this month-long standoff to strip them of a right that is merely redundant. Sure thing.

[archibaldcrane]

Guartz, if you could prove that the teachers in Wisconsin were getting paid a budget-crippling amount, this argument would have merit. But the unions have been reasonable in concessions in down-times (including this one) and have managed just fine under democrat and republican governors alike. Wisconsin isn't an "all blue all the time" state (despite being blue in presidential elections since 1988 - yeah, they voted for Dukakis) - the unions haven't "taken over".

[aurik]

Hmm, well let me put it this way. It was edited out of the Roe v. Wade opinion in the case book if it was there, it's not studied in con law I or II, and a visiting professor cited multiple cases where the SCOTUS essentially called worthless.

So the implicit right to privacy (being a non-enumerated right, and being one of the underpinnings of Roe v. Wade) is worthless. Gotcha.

And there are already multiple civil service laws protecting public employees and public employees can still bargain, just not collectively.

They are also permitted breathe and eat, who the fuck cares. "What else" they can do is completely irrelevant . What good constitutionally-derived reason should they be restricted from collective bargaining?

Also, for all the hoopla about "rights" being taken away, why aren't any liberals bitching about the unions wanting to take away secret ballot elections? That "right" is far more fundamental than the right to collectively bargain.

Because this topic is about the union-busting bill in Wisconsin. If you want to talk about something else, make a thread.

[archibaldcrane]

Fitzwalkerstan is nationally trending on twitter.

[guartz]

Archi
My point is that public sector unions are bullshit and not some divine right crowned upon americans by God himself. And all these protests are bullshit, and these people protesting are just fucking pawns in the game they don't even understand. Therefore, the protesters are bullshit too.

Secondly, Aurik. You are wrong again.

1. Corporations more or less distribute their checks equally between both parties.
2. Corporations don't tax their employees for political contributions.
3. Most prominent corporate donations come from public companies, which are under legal obligation by their share holders not to squander their wealth. So the entire 'unlimited' sonata your singing is bullshit.
4. Vote 3rd party.
5. No, you went through the month long stand-off so the other guys have less money for election.
6. Trust me, nobody in politics gives a fuck about you or your teachers.

[aurik]

Yea, "I" went through a month long stand off for "my" teachers. Dumbass.

[Demosthenes11]

Archi
My point is that public sector unions are bullshit and not some divine right crowned upon americans by God himself. And all these protests are bullshit, and these people protesting are just fucking pawns in the game they don't even understand. Therefore, the protesters are bullshit too.

Yep, fighting for rights that should be fundamental makes them pawns. This isn't a rally to support anyone, this is a protest by the people for the people. I know you want to stand on a soapbox and tell the people the story of the conspiracy against the US people (I think we can all agree to some point in that matter), but it's irrelevant here.

[aurik]

Also its kinda funny you think corporations magically invent money to give to politicians instead of taking it from incoming revenue, therefore impacting the bottom line, therefore impacting employees.
And how you keep repeating that unions tax their members to give to political parties when that is specifically not permitted. Trying to repeat a lie until it sticks are we?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Davenpo...on_Association

[guartz]

google 527

[aurik]

So pass laws that restrict campaign finance OH WAIT republicans don't want that because it might impact their precious 501s.

[aurik]

Why don't you tell us some more lies you wish were true.

[Esvedium]

Why don't you tell us some more lies you wish were true.

SANTA IS REAL!!!

[Kirin]

Just in casually glancing on this thread developing since the vote, not trying to troll...seriously trying to understand.

1. How is what happened here any different procedure wise (outside of stave vs national scale) with the healthcare vote in D.C.?
2. How many of these public union workers are going to stay employed now that the bill is passed? I had heard they all keep their jobs in exchange for losing collective bargaining until the budget is balanced. Why is this a bad thing? Id rather stay frozen at (random numbers) 30-40k for the next 3 years than risk being layed off in 6 months.
3. Also from what I understand, Walker campaigned on doing just what he did and still got elected. If thats true, why was this not seen coming?

[Olo401]

Archi
My point is that public sector unions are bullshit and not some divine right crowned upon americans by God himself. And all these protests are bullshit, and these people protesting are just fucking pawns in the game they don't even understand. Therefore, the protesters are bullshit too.

You're right guartz. Public sector unions are not a divine right. They are a hard fought right, built in the late 1800s and early 1900s on the backs and with the blood of thousands of American workers, public and private. The ground they covered, from ending child labor to securing minimum wages to enforcing standards of safety has helped to build the middle class of this country.

And you're also right that more recently, many people have been pawns. They have taken those rights that other bled for for granted in our busy everyday lives. They have become complacent and ignorant, and time and again have let the wealthy talk them into voting against their own interests just to get short-term gratification on some other distraction issue. Which resulted in this mess they're in today.. and yes it's admittedly quite a mess.

Unfortunately, the people you see in these protests today are no longer pawns, no longer bullshit. They're the real deal that hasn't been seen since before the Great Depression, before the Walker Act was passed.

[Acturus]

If I was a republican or big business, I'd be worried right now. With the way the economy is as well as the constant outsourcing of jobs, emotions were a powder keg and Wisconsin managed to light the fuse. I wonder if this will spread to other states now.

Florida union workers have started to make news locally. The difference is, in Florida, there are laws against striking. But there's talks of protest.

[aurik]

3. Also from what I understand, Walker campaigned on doing just what he did and still got elected. If thats true, why was this not seen coming?

Demonstrably false. http://politifact.com/wisconsin/stat...mpaigned-his-/

The question you should be asking is, what lead you to this false conclusion?

[Meresgi]

If I was a republican or big business, I'd be worried right now. With the way the economy is as well as the constant outsourcing of jobs, emotions were a powder keg and Wisconsin managed to light the fuse. I wonder if this will spread to other states now.

I really hop so. It's about time at least some of the populace woke up and saw what's been going on and took a stand for it. Republicans like to preach about the founding fathers, but the shit that's going on now would have been right in line with their viewpoints I think.

[Kuya]

My perception of guartz right now is of someone who is arguing about how a mosquito is such an evil to us all, meanwhile we're surrounded by lions, bears, and t-rexes.

[Demosthenes11]

My perception of guartz right now is of someone who is arguing about how a mosquito is such an evil to us all, meanwhile we're surrounded by lions, bears, and t-rexes.

You've just been blinded by the illuminati in favor of the new world order

[aurik]

You're all pawns, PAWNS I tell you.