No class in WI as teachers protest union-busting governor

[Cantih]

Someone posted this on facebook which I thought was kinda fun:
...
food for thought anyways for those thinking they get overpaid.

Fucking NICE. Give whoever wrote that a gold star.

[Bingbong]

Meh, hypothetical and all that stuff, but most special ed classes max out at 15, at least here in Mass by the DoE.

Also, those top heavy classes usually have an aid, and those that don't have aides send their kids off to PE once a week, Music once a week, Art once a week. So the 6.5 hours/day all BS aside is more like 4, 4.5 tops.

[Tekoa]

Meh, hypothetical and all that stuff, but most special ed classes max out at 15, at least here in Mass by the DoE.

Also, those top heavy classes usually have an aid, and those that don't have aides send their kids off to PE once a week, Music once a week, Art once a week. So the 6.5 hours/day all BS aside is more like 4, 4.5 tops.

I have 25 students in my third grade class. No top heavy class in my school has a single aid. Do I send my students off to a special once per day? Yes I do. I also come in 45 minutes early and leave 45 minutes late every day on top of having a 30 minute lunch break. So let's see, 8-4:30 is 8.5 hours, subtract out my one daily special and 30 minutes for lunch, then 7.5 hours a day. Oh yeah, I also have to grade papers and make lesson plans which takes up my time outside of work. Do I think that there are things that need to change in the education system? Of course (hi2u tenure). But saying a teacher works for only 4 hours a day is not applicable to the majority of the profession.

[Olo401]

So the unions were willing to give up their worker's incomes but not their own. Taken together with the fact that they aren't willing to have be re-certified every year, who's interests are they looking out for?

Why the fuck should unions have to be re-certified every year? Do corporations have to be re-certified every year by their employees? Are corporate executives willing to give up their ridiculous salaries and atrocious bonuses over their workers income? Whose interests do THEY look out for? Yeah, that's what I thought. Take your bullshit argument someplace else.

Also, considering unions give more to politicians than corporations, by liberal logic, shouldn't their power be curtailed?

Citizens United may have given unions the same overreaching ability to donate to political campaigns that corporations got, but the idea that unions are able to give more than corporations is total bullshit. Corporations give more to the myriad of scumbag front groups like Citizens United that hide their donation trails, giving the appearance that they aren't involved as much. Another bullshit argument.

[Acturus]

Someone posted this on facebook which I thought was kinda fun:



Now granted, not many people get paid per product (commission if you will) but comparing it to babysitting/daycare is quite appropriate imo considering I often hear that as a reason to cut teacher salaries. food for thought anyways for those thinking they get overpaid.

I saw that, and debated it with some of my Facebook teacher friends because the math is right but the facts are wrong.

Average student teacher ratio in the US is nowhere near 30:1. (It's more like 15.5:1)

15.5 students at $3.00 per student per hour for 6.5 hours and 180 days is about $54,400.

Also, teachers with Masters Degrees and/or Special Ed teachers do not make 167% what an average teacher makes. Salary.com told me that a Special Ed teacher makes about $2,000 less annually than a regular Elementary Ed teacher. Arguing that you're rounding up on minimum wage doesn't hold a lot of water when we're discussing a base rate of $3.00 per hour per kid.

It's a great story, but a terrible argument for increased teacher pay.

*edit* for the record, I think teachers in general are horribly underpaid. I'm just not a fan of these types of facebook chain letters.

[Olo401]

As to the weaker part, I don't know if I want that per se, but as it stands, public sector unions sit on both sides of the table which isn't right either.

What the fuck are you talking about? They do not sit on both sides. Do you have some kind of magic bullshit-spewing machine in your house?

[Not Kuno]

Average student teacher ratio in the US is nowhere near 30:1. (It's more like 15.5:1)

Does that include private and charter schools? Because there is no way that sounds right, it says NY is 13.5:1 which is a bit off from the 35:1 here in NYC.

[SwampdonkeyPLD]

What the fuck are you talking about? They do not sit on both sides. Do you have some kind of magic bullshit-spewing machine in your house?

I would call collective bargaining + large political donations to the other side of the table, sitting on both sides of the table.

[Olo401]

I would call collective bargaining + large political donations to the other side of the table, sitting on both sides of the table.

And now you're either just plain trolling or you have no idea what you're trying to say.. Unions don't donate to the companies that their locals are negotiating with.

[Valisk]

I saw that, and debated it with some of my Facebook teacher friends because the math is right but the facts are wrong.

Average student teacher ratio in the US is nowhere near 30:1. (It's more like 15.5:1)

15.5 students at $3.00 per student per hour for 6.5 hours and 180 days is about $54,400.

Also, teachers with Masters Degrees and/or Special Ed teachers do not make 167% what an average teacher makes. Salary.com told me that a Special Ed teacher makes about $2,000 less annually than a regular Elementary Ed teacher. Arguing that you're rounding up on minimum wage doesn't hold a lot of water when we're discussing a base rate of $3.00 per hour per kid.

It's a great story, but a terrible argument for increased teacher pay.

*edit* for the record, I think teachers in general are horribly underpaid. I'm just not a fan of these types of facebook chain letters.

If you're going to argue that the numbers are wrong then you need to change the $3.00 an hour also. Who babysits for $3.00? A 12 year old kid who doesn't know the time value of money?

[SwampdonkeyPLD]

And now you're either just plain trolling or you have no idea what you're trying to say.. Unions don't donate to the companies that their locals are negotiating with.

I guess you didn't notice in my first post that you quoted I said "public sector unions."

[Olo401]

I guess you didn't notice in my first post that you quoted I said "public sector unions."

That has nothing to do with nothing. Public sector unions are not a branch of government.

And before you say it, I do see what you're trying to do here - you're once again trying to claim unions buy elections. So let me reiterate that Corporations donate BY FAR much more money, openly AND covertly, on their own and via PACs to politicians and their various PACs than ALL unions, their members and PACs do combined.

[archibaldcrane]

Money in elections is bad. It's anti-democracy for certain groups to have greater representation than others, everyone should be represented equally.

However, I'd rather the money in elections come from groups that represent millions of working-class americans (unions) than money that represents the mega-rich (CEOs and major shareholders of corporations).

Money isn't going away. Corporations aren't going away. Unions are - the last politically significant group that represents the working class is going to disappear - none of these public-sector unions in Wisconsin will continue to exist if all they can't bargain for benefits or establish pay raises beyond inflation.

This is already the situation in America:
http://www.cbpp.org/images/cms//10-21-10inc-f3.jpg
No inflation-adjusted income increases for the bottom 90% of Americans for the past 40 years. - the entirety of America's prosperity in more than my lifetime has gone to the top 10% - mainly the top 1%

Eliminating Unions will only make this worse - and that is bad for America.

[Olo401]

This just in from Indiana...

House Democrats are leaving the state rather than vote on anti-union legislation, The Indianapolis Star has learned. A source said Democrats are headed to Illinois, though it was possible some also might go to Kentucky. They need to go to a state with a Democratic governor to avoid being taken into police custody and returned to Indiana.
The House was came into session this morning, with only two of the 40 Democrats present. Those two were needed to make a motion, and a seconding motion, for any procedural steps Democrats would want to take to ensure Republicans don’t do anything official without quorum.
With only 58 legislators present, there was no quorum present to do business. The House needs 67 of its members to be present."

[archibaldcrane]

The American dream is a farce. People want to make 100k a year, buy a nice house, live a safe life of economic prosperity. But these people get it the worst from the government - they make enough income to be in a high tax bracket, but because their income isn't from investments usually, they pay more taxes percentage-wise than the average top 1%er. They don't get the advantages of corporate welfare, they can't effectively lobby for political changes vs. corporate finance, and their incomes do not improve vs. inflation over 40 fucking years.

We are stuck in a circular cycle where the richest members of corporations wield an increasing amount of political power, which they use to consolidate wealth at the top (where they are) - which they use to buy even more political power.

I do not know where it ends.

[Olo401]

The American dream is a farce. People want to make 100k a year, buy a nice house, live a safe life of economic prosperity. But these people get it the worst from the government - they make enough income to be in a high tax bracket, but because their income isn't from investments usually, they pay more taxes percentage-wise than the average top 1%er. They don't get the advantages of corporate welfare, they can't effectively lobby for political changes vs. corporate finance, and their incomes do not improve vs. inflation over 40 fucking years.

We are stuck in a circular cycle where the richest members of corporations wield an increasing amount of political power, which they use to consolidate wealth at the top (where they are) - which they use to buy even more political power.

I do not know where it ends.

Unfortunately our own history tells us where it will end. The throne of England owned & operated the ships of trade during the 1700s via corporations, and then enforced not only the non-representative laws they passed to control the colonies, but also used their corporations to collect absurd fees and tariffs from those trying to sell their goods grown & made in the Colonies to England or other countries. Even after the Colonies managed to get an act repealed, it would be enforced by other means. Those farmers, merchants, scholars and artisans eventually realized the only course was to end the cycle by force.

[Ksandra]

I saw that, and debated it with some of my Facebook teacher friends because the math is right but the facts are wrong.

Average student teacher ratio in the US is nowhere near 30:1. (It's more like 15.5:1)

15.5 students at $3.00 per student per hour for 6.5 hours and 180 days is about $54,400.

Also, teachers with Masters Degrees and/or Special Ed teachers do not make 167% what an average teacher makes. Salary.com told me that a Special Ed teacher makes about $2,000 less annually than a regular Elementary Ed teacher. Arguing that you're rounding up on minimum wage doesn't hold a lot of water when we're discussing a base rate of $3.00 per hour per kid.

It's a great story, but a terrible argument for increased teacher pay.

*edit* for the record, I think teachers in general are horribly underpaid. I'm just not a fan of these types of facebook chain letters.

I think you totally misunderstood the article lol.

First, no where does it say that special ed teachers/masters get paid 167% more, they are saying, "hey what would happen if they got paid minimum wage since they have a degree/have a lot more shit to do (special ed)." It wasn't supposed to be reflected of reality difference. It is just more of a comparison to babysitting/daycare, since that's what opponents often say it is.

2. The article as someone stated is actually gracious about hours, It doesn't include all the extra shit about lesson planning/grading papers etc. Hell if you want to get into the special ed issue, my mom never leaves home until about 4:30 (school ends at 2:30), and gets there about an hour before school starts.

3. I have to agree with kuno. That statistic seems insanely off, or is including private schools or something. I don't think I've even seen a 15 student class unless it was special ed.

[Demosthenes11]

lol 15.5:1

I don't think I was ever in a class with less than 25, topping out at 37

[notorious bum]

I think SwampDonkey exists on these forums purely to troll. He contributes nothing except to harass posters with obvious and hollow arguments that he KNOWS will not hold up and yet he rebuttals everything until he runs out of things to dissect, inevitably losing to some type of fundamental, elementary concept represented at the core of his arguments.

With that said, thanks for the teacher maths formula! I will gladly steal a few laughs off of that lol

lol 15.5:1

I don't think I was ever in a class with less than 25, topping out at 37

same, even when I had to stay in portables, it was 20-30 easy.

[Ksandra]

some places are probably fucking up the average anyways. My friend grew up in missouri in a huge cattle/farm ranch town. he said there was only like 9 students in his whole grade until high school ('cause the town was so damn small.)

That's my only guess lol.