Why Rift may be the game for you.

[Falisa]

I agree that Rift has had one of the smoothest launches out of all the mmos. Hell, even WoW launch was pretty bad because the servers were extremely laggy and FFXI had alot of downtime with patches. Launch may be good, only time will tell if the longevity of the game matches it.

[Man0warr]

If this game isn't successful then the MMO genre has zero future. If a polished, mostly bug free game with more end game content at release than even WoW launched with can't succeed then nothing will. People need to have patience - it's impossible for an MMO to launch with the same amount of content WoW has at launch, and obviously classes aren't balanced yet - wait for some patches before you rage.

[Dantrag]

If this game isn't successful then the MMO genre has zero future. If a polished, mostly bug free game with more end game content at release than even WoW launched with can't succeed then nothing will. People need to have patience - it's impossible for an MMO to launch with the same amount of content WoW has at launch, and obviously classes aren't balanced yet - wait for some patches before you rage.

That's not really true. But yes, Rift has had one of the smoothest launches. And most of what you said is also true, but we know there will be something(probably Blizz's next mmo) that will do just as well despite the launch.

[ringthree]

Why does every thread about every new MMO sound the same? That is because everyone makes the same promises to best WoW at WoW's game. Does that mean that Rift is bad? Not at all. But there is more to the MMO genre than just the game. It is the synergy of time invested, on-the-fly learning by the developers, innovation and iteration.

Rift looks ok. It is pretty but it doesn't have style or flair. Rift plays ok. It has a good combat system, but it obviously just pulled from WoW and is still unbalanced. Rift innovates ok. It took the WAR public quest and made it relevant. Rift endgames ok. It doesn't break the mold, but there was no reason to do some. Rift provides ok choices to players. It has tons of (cumbersome and probably useless) player options for character development that will inevitably fall into overly complicated cookie cutter specs.

You might think I am bashing Rift, but I am not. No other game, even WoW, was launched with even "OK's" in everything. The inherent problem though, is that the reason Rift is so well designed is that they took no risks at all. They did everything by the book. They essentially made WoW2. The problem is that they just don't have the on-the-ground and in-the-trenches experience and knowledge that Blizzard has. That is why Blizzard and WoW are juggernauts.

[Dantrag]

They essentially made WoW2.

Warow really.

[Man0warr]

Why does every thread about every new MMO sound the same? That is because everyone makes the same promises to best WoW at WoW's game. Does that mean that Rift is bad? Not at all. But there is more to the MMO genre than just the game. It is the synergy of time invested, on-the-fly learning by the developers, innovation and iteration.

Rift looks ok. It is pretty but it doesn't have style or flair. Rift plays ok. It has a good combat system, but it obviously just pulled from WoW and is still unbalanced. Rift innovates ok. It took the WAR public quest and made it relevant. Rift endgames ok. It doesn't break the mold, but there was no reason to do some. Rift provides ok choices to players. It has tons of (cumbersome and probably useless) player options for character development that will inevitably fall into overly complicated cookie cutter specs.

You might think I am bashing Rift, but I am not. No other game, even WoW, was launched with even "OK's" in everything. The inherent problem though, is that the reason Rift is so well designed is that they took no risks at all. They did everything by the book. They essentially made WoW2. The problem is that they just don't have the on-the-ground and in-the-trenches experience and knowledge that Blizzard has. That is why Blizzard and WoW are juggernauts.

Most of the senior staff of Trion has more MMO experience and successful launches than anyone at Blizzard. Not to mention some of them have worked on failed MMOs and they know what mistakes not to repeat.

WoW was initially successful because they were 1) the first company to polish their game before release (this is Blizzard, they have no deadlines or higher ups forcing them to release stuff early, they take their time, sometimes too much of it) 2) a well respected and well established IP they chose to build on.

Trion/Rift is basically the first MMO since WoW to make sure they were releasing a polished game with no game breaking bugs and some endgame content. You can't say that about any MMO that has released since November 2004.

[Eaglestrike]

Why does every thread about every new MMO sound the same? That is because everyone makes the same promises to best WoW at WoW's game. Does that mean that Rift is bad? Not at all. But there is more to the MMO genre than just the game. It is the synergy of time invested, on-the-fly learning by the developers, innovation and iteration.

Rift looks ok. It is pretty but it doesn't have style or flair. Rift plays ok. It has a good combat system, but it obviously just pulled from WoW and is still unbalanced. Rift innovates ok. It took the WAR public quest and made it relevant. Rift endgames ok. It doesn't break the mold, but there was no reason to do some. Rift provides ok choices to players. It has tons of (cumbersome and probably useless) player options for character development that will inevitably fall into overly complicated cookie cutter specs.

You might think I am bashing Rift, but I am not. No other game, even WoW, was launched with even "OK's" in everything. The inherent problem though, is that the reason Rift is so well designed is that they took no risks at all. They did everything by the book. They essentially made WoW2. The problem is that they just don't have the on-the-ground and in-the-trenches experience and knowledge that Blizzard has. That is why Blizzard and WoW are juggernauts.

Go read the reviews for WoW when it first came out. Exact same shit people say to describe Rift. Rift has the potential to be the next juggernaut, we'll see over the next few months if Trion has the right moves to make it.

Not that I necessarily care one way or another, I just want them to keep making a solid game.

[ringthree]

Go read the reviews for WoW when it first came out. Exact same shit people say to describe Rift. Rift has the potential to be the next juggernaut, we'll see over the next few months if Trion has the right moves to make it.

Not that I necessarily care one way or another, I just want them to keep making a solid game.

I don't know if you really read my post, but I said that Rift is probably one of the best launches of any MMO. I just think that people expect far too much out of MMO's in general at launch. Blizzard's launch off WoW was more rocky at the time, but they were bringing something that was unlike anything the genre had ever seen at the time. Rift doesn't have that advantage. They are essentially an iteration of WoW. (Yes, I know that WoW was essentially an iteration of EQ, FFXI and even Ultima Online at the time, but it was a huge step up into the next generation of MMO's. Rift is more like a half of a step at best).

[ringthree]

Most of the senior staff of Trion has more MMO experience and successful launches than anyone at Blizzard. Not to mention some of them have worked on failed MMOs and they know what mistakes not to repeat.

Blizzard was in the same position at the launch of WoW. And no matter how many people Trion pilfered from other companies, they still don't have the experience at running a globally successful game that Blizzard does. No one has the experience that Blizzard has.

WoW was initially successful because they were 1) the first company to polish their game before release (this is Blizzard, they have no deadlines or higher ups forcing them to release stuff early, they take their time, sometimes too much of it) 2) a well respected and well established IP they chose to build on.

Trion/Rift is basically the first MMO since WoW to make sure they were releasing a polished game with no game breaking bugs and some endgame content. You can't say that about any MMO that has released since November 2004.

I totally agree with you on this, but it doesn't change the fact that there is more to an MMO than launch polish. Launch polish is critical to prevent launching an abortion like FFXIV, but it isn't the reason that Blizzard has been enormously successful for seven years.

[Man0warr]

The reason they were successful is they had zero competition and people literally had nothing else to play, so all 2.5-3 million NA MMO players had a WoW account. The majority of WoW's subs (7-8 million) are Chinese and no other MMOs even have access to this demographic. The best a traditional MMO can hope for is around 5-6million subscribers (NA+Europe+Australia/Japan), but even that was boosted by Blizzard's already huge fanbase.

Blizzard was in the same position at the launch of WoW. And no matter how many people Trion pilfered from other companies, they still don't have the experience at running a globally successful game that Blizzard does. No one has the experience that Blizzard has.

Nah, of Blizzard's senior producers/developers when WoW launched (Pardo, Metzen, Furor, Tigole), Pardo and Metzen had released Warcraft and Starcraft games, and Furor (quest guy) and Tigole (raid guy) were both guys that had experience working in software but were mainly hired because they were the leaders of the 2 most uber raiding guilds in EverQuest (Fires of Heaven and Legacy of Steel) and both knew Pardo personally (he was the leader of LoS before stepping down). They were hired mainly for their knowledge of what gamers at the time wanted. Blizzard had relatively little MMO experience outside playing them at the time, but that's a good thing since they turned what a traditional MMO should be on it's head.

Trion on the other hand is mostly EQ, EQ2, Vanguard, and some ex-Blizzard/ArenaNet guys (I wouldn't use the word pilfered here, those guys quit) trying to copy what made WoW successful, and put a twist on it with dynamic content (Rifts, we still haven't seen their full potential yet) and a hopefully faster patch cycle (Blizzard just announced they are delaying the new raid content from patch 4.1 to 4.2, have fun with Cata release raids for another 4 months!).

[Eaglestrike]

I don't know if you really read my post, but I said that Rift is probably one of the best launches of any MMO. I just think that people expect far too much out of MMO's in general at launch. Blizzard's launch off WoW was more rocky at the time, but they were bringing something that was unlike anything the genre had ever seen at the time. Rift doesn't have that advantage. They are essentially an iteration of WoW. (Yes, I know that WoW was essentially an iteration of EQ, FFXI and even Ultima Online at the time, but it was a huge step up into the next generation of MMO's. Rift is more like a half of a step at best).

And you don't seem to be getting what I said. Read some of the old WoW reviews, they will actually say the opposite of your statement: That WoW brings nothing new to the genre whatsoever. Here:

There's nothing new here. Basically they've taken things that are known to work from previous MMORPGs and put them into the game. WoW is a prime example of "if it isn't broke don't fix it." Rather than take a chance on more innovative features like some games in production are doing, Blizzard took the safe route and stuck to things people know and are used to.

Combat is pretty much what you'd expect it to be. It is pretty much what has become the typical form of combat in MMORPGs. Some people call it "sandwich" style combat, meaning hit auto-attack and go fix a sandwich, come back and loot the corpse and move on to the next target. Granted, much like any other game out there you have your special attacks and abilities that you can hit during combat to expedite the target's demise. Once again, there is nothing new or innovative here, if you've played DAoC or EQ or just about any MMORPG on the market you'll feel right at home.

It is an extremely well made game. It succeeds very well at what it's trying to do. Unfortunately, in my opinion it's not trying to do enough. It really brings nothing new to the table. In my opinion at this stage of the MMORPG evolution you have to be innovative to some degree. Granted you don't take the whole mold and throw it out the window. You keep some stuff that has worked in the past and you mix a couple new innovative ideas into the recipe. But this is based on the fact that I've been following the genre as long as it has been around, I'm constantly looking for new ideas and features in games as they come out. I love when I'm playing a new MMORPG and discover some new feature or idea and am pleasantly surprised.

http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cf...pressions.html

So yeah, my point is that it's pretty clear you don't need much new and innovative to actually be successful. WoW's most innovative feature was taking away a bit of the grind from its predecessors, that's it.

[Man0warr]

Yeah, WoW was the first of the casual MMOs that are now the norm. Before WoW you had the likes of EverQuest (in highschool/college I raided in EQ 6 nights a week, from around 7pm to 2am) and FFXI. Both had brutal leveling curves, it took almost 6 months to get to 50 in original EQ and FFXI could take longer than that if you had no one to help do limit breaks.

[ringthree]

And you don't seem to be getting what I said. Read some of the old WoW reviews, they will actually say the opposite of your statement: That WoW brings nothing new to the genre whatsoever. Here:
http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cf...pressions.html

So yeah, my point is that it's pretty clear you don't need much new and innovative to actually be successful. WoW's most innovative feature was taking away a bit of the grind from its predecessors, that's it.

Never said it wasn't successful, but those are pretty jaded reviews. If WoW was so similar why did none of the games before it explode like WoW did? Why didn't the games that came right after WoW do so poorly comparative?

The proof is in the pudding.

[Eaglestrike]

Never said it wasn't successful, but those are pretty jaded reviews. If WoW was so similar why did none of the games before it explode like WoW did? Why didn't the games that came right after WoW do so poorly comparative?

The proof is in the pudding.

The reason is because what people think is necessary for an MMO to succeed and what actually makes one succeed are different. You don't need to be new and innovative, you just need to make a polished, solid game. None of the other MMO's did this. AoC was crap from 20+, Warhammer was unpolished and buggy, FFXIV isn't even a real game months after launch, Aion was a pure grindfest of lol. None of these games did what WoW did: Just create a solid, working game with only minor complaints to attach to it. Rift is the first one to have done this.

[Lucavi]

Never said it wasn't successful, but those are pretty jaded reviews. If WoW was so similar why did none of the games before it explode like WoW did? Why didn't the games that came right after WoW do so poorly comparative?

The proof is in the pudding.

Because success doesn't equal innovation and innovation doesn't equal success. WoW had soft competitors that encouraged a lengthier play style, while WoW, while forcing you to grind at its earliest points in the game's history, awarded plenty of carrots to chase after (a carrot for each quest, and many times substantial carrots), and did a lot to encourage people to work at their own pace, or work together.

Not to mention it was a Blizzard game ( a highly-touted company known for always producing quality goods), plus it had an already-established and highly-successful franchise behind it. Everything was ripe for the taking. It was a perfect storm, even if the game itself was far (FAR) from perfect.

Rift doesn't have a franchise to stand on. It doesn't have a company known for hit after hit after hit. What it does have is some of the best minds in the biz teaming up, and a dedication to doing things right from the beginning, and giving players plenty of options, even if many of the options are merely illusions of being different from other games.

If the game is fun, play it. Its fun to a lot of people, and it will be successful. Period. Nobody is trying to dethrone WoW, but this game will have its own fat little niche of players that will stick with it; more than every other MMO that isn't WoW.

[Guyverarmor]

Agreed. It will not dethrone WoW ( it's too entrenched now ) but Rift will put a fucking dent in their subs, that much can be seen so far... If you choose not to believe it.. /shrug

Off to do some Fire invasions.

[Hyan]

more than every other MMO that isn't WoW.

Now that would be impressive.

[Meko]

Personally, I don't blame RIFT for making a WoWish clone. WoW is a winning product 7 years later (and a very strong base). With that being said, at this point, personally, I want something different. I had high hopes for FF14 because I felt like it would break new ground and I played FFXI for so long. As a MMO player, we all keep our eyes and ears open for the next game and a lot of us play the newest MMO regardless of how bad it is - see Warhammer and Age of Conan to name a couple. Because RIFT doesn't bring anything new or different to the table (at least not to me), I'll stick with WoW as I've invested the time into my characters and I raid with my guild. I actually talked to my guild about trying RIFT but a few of us were in beta and we don't have the pushing desire to move to it as a guild. With that being said, play what you like! Who cares if it's the most selling or better franchise. It's your dime, enjoy it.

[Eaglestrike]

Personally, I don't blame RIFT for making a WoWish clone. WoW is a winning product 7 years later (and a very strong base). With that being said, at this point, personally, I want something different. I had high hopes for FF14 because I felt like it would break new ground and I played FFXI for so long. As a MMO player, we all keep our eyes and ears open for the next game and a lot of us play the newest MMO regardless of how bad it is - see Warhammer and Age of Conan to name a couple. Because RIFT doesn't bring anything new or different to the table (at least not to me), I'll stick with WoW as I've invested the time into my characters and I raid with my guild. I actually talked to my guild about trying RIFT but a few of us were in beta and we don't have the pushing desire to move to it as a guild. With that being said, play what you like! Who cares if it's the most selling or better franchise. It's your dime, enjoy it.

It brings Rifts to the table, which is, imo, the next step to MMO's. I'm not even sure it's POSSIBLE to break the mold of the MMO and make a successful game out of it. But Rift brings in dynamic content and a system in place to quickly and easily toss out new, random content. They'll be able to put in world-wide events far easier/quicker and ones that mean more as well. The concept of Rifts was enough to tear me from WoW, because it's another dimension to the MMO that has the potential to be that innovation. And then everything else about Rift is very similar to WoW. So it's really setup to do things right.

[Lucavi]

Now that would be impressive.

You trollin (of course - go back to XIV), but it would be impressive, and will be when it happens.