Dev Tracker

[Julian]

That argument is bullshit.

If SE cared about balance and people being too overpowered, then voidwatch wouldn't have all those temp items to spam, and you wouldn't have that save tp atmacite. It's not as broken as abyssea, but it's getting there. (Basically, what I'm saying is, if their problem with abyssea was that people were too overpowered, then why are they doing it again?)

The only real difference between abyssea and voidwatch is that they changed back to the old terrible loot system.

[Darkmagi]

Yeah as far as being overpowered, there isn't a huge difference between voidwatch and Abyssea. VW has a terrible loot system and is much less accessible to the average player though.

[Toth]

I see what you are saying Julian but without temporary items, VW would be extremely difficult. Items make it challenging but doable.

[Septimus]

Atma and Brews are fine, even at 200k cruor for the latter. While some want to speculate Abyssea was the swan song of XI and it was all meant to ween us into XIV, the undeniable truth about it all is that it was ultimately content for levels 76-90. Even if it came out in a slightly scaled back form, natural progression from 91-99 would make the areas even easier. So, in consideration it isn't the endgame, albeit an important place to spend time, making it stupid hard like some yearn for would've just repeated the crap of CoP days in needing perfect set ups for a given fight just to win, let alone negotiate the proc system.

Overall, how EXP granted EXP did wonders for that aspect of the game. If Abyssea "killed" FFXI like some want to say, I'll say things like colibri killed it first with Astral Burns putting the nail in the coffin. I can't think of many who miss the days of limited camps, the drama they could spawn, and being left out or stuck playing one of the less fun jobs just to make some merit progress. Meanwhile, graduating from 21-24hr NMs (or more) to mostly popped things did wonders for outfitting thousands upon thousands of players in a reasonable manner. If you thought DA was bad with 150 in zone with endgame population coming and going while spread over 7 years, imagine all those people over time crammed into the same few places if pop conditions were more brutal. Hell, we get glimpses of that with things like Guku's Aery.

Now, is Abyssea perfect? Nope. I will agree that the job exclusion the proc system stimulates is the worst of it. I appreciate the spirit of the system, though, in that it is a means to improve our rewards should we take advantage of it. Progress is still possible without, but without it being around, competition on things could still be much worse, if some people didn't quit in frustration maybe trying to camp things like Turul as a result for a Loki's. I dare not consider how horrid some magian trials would be without select mob families also available in abundance.

On the other end of the "Abyssea killed FFXI!" line of thinking, we get those who feel it killed alliance play. If my recent time playing Rift has been any indication, it's that people are willing to unite to accomplish a single objective. However, the trick is to fairly reward everyone and make the process of participation easy. Like Voidwatch, participating in a world event will get you a personal treasure pool as you kill invasions or the boss. Upon killing the boss, everyone is granted with currency and EXP shards, as well as chances for other rare drops. Granted, this system isn't perfect since you'll get some who just idle in a zone until the boss shows, but there's none of the drama of kissing a shell leader's ass, amassing DKP or whatever, or having to play nice with people you loathe. You just wind up with dozens, if not more, people trying to get shit done. On a PvP server? Well, welcome mobile PvP hotbeds at various event objectives. The closest FFXI has ever come to this was Campaign, but it's a rather juvenile system in comparison, lacking complexity and, nowadays, good rewards.

Rather bluntly, it's possible for large-group content to be made, even challenging. However, it needs to be easily accessed and equally rewarding in the long-term so it's not just an eventual WoE ghost town. A lot of the people who have embraced Abyssea's low-man atmosphere do not want to return the days where the earlier issues I noted were commonplace. It's not that they don't want to play with other people. Rather, it can be an issue of playing with other people when they want to/are able and not outright be subjected to the shortcomings of bad apples, like griefers, loot thieves, or the know-it-all jerkwads who truly know nothing at all.

Really, it behooves us to get SE off their current course with XI. The game could be better than it is right now. People have other options for entertainment with those options growing daily. The good ol' days of FFXI, the game, really weren't that good. Virtually everyone I see pining for those, when not trying to be a condescending troll, tend to mention the friends they made and the good times shared with them. That's not so much FFXI being a good game as it was FFXI mimicking a matchmaking service. Throw a bunch of people together with similar interests and shit happens, for better or worse. And as long as events are unrewarding for masses of players, I can't blame a group for steering toward having as few mouths to feed as possible. You get done more it quickly. It cuts down on the chances of someone feeling left out. The better job SE does in keeping player politics out of the actual gaming equation, the better. They just need to realize that actually involves listening to players and fixing shit based on their feedback. Abyssea itself needn't be FFXI's future, and I think most understand that. It's the taking steps backward in design philosophies that's problematic, and these aren't just the observations of "spoiled" players, but people who know better, who know there are greener pastures but still have the benefit of the game in mind instead of just canceling their sub and running off silent.

I should also not rant after having not slept for 34 hours.

Truth.

When I look at the official forums and people talking about the good-old days I want to rage. The good old days fucking sucked. Back in the "good old days", a good XP party was 4k per hour. Back in the "good old days" you needed an alliance to kill artifact armor NMs. In the "good old days" Fafnir always popped purple and people camped Tiamat. In the "good old days" you could go to Dynamis for a year and still not get the armor you wanted because of lousy drops and point drama. In the "good old days" the new armor added was either situational, side-grade, or salvage. Thinking back, we were masochists for putting up with this shit.

Abyssea wasn't perfect, but it was far better than anything that came before it. A lot of jobs were excluded from Abyssea, but the people who complain about that cannot explain how that was any different from anything that came before it. There have always been favorite jobs in this game, but I guess because RDM and PLD weren't on the list for Abyssea it means that this time exclusion was bad. The core concept of the proc system was good- you proc and it increases the chance of drops, sadly it got overplayed. The fast XP allowed a lot of people to gimp their way to level cap without knowing their jobs- we had a lot of people back before CoP who were 75 and completely worthless who managed to gimp their way to the cap in the tank/skillchain/magic burst parties for 5k per hour that people on the official forums seem to cherish.

I think about the only thing that annoys me more than the Dev team are the idiots that white knight for them who look back fondly on a period of the game that can only be described as an experiment in sadism.

[Damane]

That argument is bullshit.

If SE cared about balance and people being too overpowered, then voidwatch wouldn't have all those temp items to spam, and you wouldn't have that save tp atmacite. It's not as broken as abyssea, but it's getting there. (Basically, what I'm saying is, if their problem with abyssea was that people were too overpowered, then why are they doing it again?)

The only real difference between abyssea and voidwatch is that they changed back to the old terrible loot system.

this pritty much sums it up, Voidwatch is no real challenge anymore once you have 2 atmacites and the item KIs... seriously failing a fight would be almost impossible! Its just shitty droprates...

@Toth: the same could be said about abyssea. Could you imagine fighting the abyssea mobs without the enhancement effect, atmas + abyssites you farmed so far? They would be beyond ridiculus too!. And Voidwatch is managable without atmacites and temp items. They have the same effect as in abyssea, makeing it easy. The only difference is that VW has retarded low droprates

EDIT: I am not saying Abyssea is bad, by all means. Abyssea was great, it brought progression in gear and was very rewarding. You went in and actually got shit done in 1-2 hours. It felt/was rewarding. Abyssea didnt destroy FFXI, it actually saved FFXI and did breath new life into it. Whats wrong with VW is tough, you cant have Abyssea with good droprates, rewarding system etc. and then go back to shity D.ring rate drops... I mean seriously 6 months of VW and I still dont have even 1 of the rare/ex bodys?! Thats kind of brutal if you think about it and dont give me the "unlucky" card. I know I am, but that shouldnt be the case, my reward shouldnt be based around luck, it should be based around effort. Luck was the "old" FFXI, it sucked and it drove people away. Abyssea was the "new" FFXI based around effort. Put in effort and you get rewarded 100%. If it werent for Abyssea I would have quit FFXI probably 1.5 years ago.
VW is makeing the same mistakes as old FFXI, effort vs. reward ratio is corincaca and its driving me nuts...

[Lordender]

If people believe anything SE says about "Balance" needs to go get their fuckin heads examined. This is the most unbalanced MMO I ever played, it is almost like a Kitchen Nightmares episode when Gordon Ramsey meets the owner and asks them about the food to give it a score and they say "my food is 10/10" despite people sending almost every order back for being terribly cooked.

[Yugl]

@Toth: the same could be said about abyssea. Could you imagine fighting the abyssea mobs without the enhancement effect, atmas + abyssites you farmed so far? They would be beyond ridiculus too!. And Voidwatch is managable without atmacites and temp items. They have the same effect as in abyssea, makeing it easy. The only difference is that VW has retarded low droprates

It's not even close when you consider the necessities for each. In terms of PT members, I'm certain you can trio many of the NMs in Abyssea, but a majority of VW NMs would make that impossible without temporary items. Also, to compare temporary items to Atma and Abyssite under these circumstances is a misnomer because you can maintain Atmas and Abyssite buffs regardless of the number of people you bring. That is not as guaranteed with VW.

[Damane]

It's not even close when you consider the necessities for each. In terms of PT members, I'm certain you can trio many of the NMs in Abyssea, but a majority of VW NMs would make that impossible without temporary items. Also, to compare temporary items to Atma and Abyssite under these circumstances is a misnomer because you can maintain Atmas and Abyssite buffs regardless of the number of people you bring. That is not as guaranteed with VW.

I dont know about you but Some Abyssea fights against the bigger bosses right after release and no atmas (like when noone knew anything) were hard for alliances too. While I agree on you with the part that lesser people in VW = lesser procs = lesser items to use = harder fight, you could do the same and say less atmas, less Abyssites (HP+ etc) and less enhancement effects = harder fights in abyssea too. The only real challenge in VW is to get a big enough roster of people.

I didnt say VW was as easy as Abyssea, only responding to Toths sentence that VW would be hard as shit without atmacites and temp items, well same could be said about Abyssea with no enhancements, atmas and Abyssites

[Yugl]

The point of that wasn't to say that you can't make them comparatively closer by restricting event-specific buffs. The point was that with or without the buffs, the fight is more difficult against VW NMs. To maintain the buffs in one situation requires multiple members; thus, fights allowing buffs require more members. By extension, they are more difficult.

[Gippo]

Voidwatch is no real challenge anymore once you have 2 atmacites and the item KIs... seriously failing a fight would be almost impossible! Its just shitty droprates...

I'd like to know your win % on Pil then, because that nm is still a crapshoot. Luck plays a huge factor in success/failure on some of the higher tier voidwatch.

[Kaisha]

Pil is manageable if you got three well equipped CORs on standby to rape its shield. Removes the luck factor.

[Julian]

I'd like to know your win % on Pil then, because that nm is still a crapshoot. Luck plays a huge factor in success/failure on some of the higher tier voidwatch.

...100%? Pil isn't hard, lol.

And all I was saying, is that players have become overpowered in a similar way that they were overpowered in abyssea. If this was what SE intended as "Abyssea was bad", then I am only pointing out that they are doing it again. To a bit of a lesser extent, but it's still pretty overpowered. And will only get even stronger as they add more temp item KIs.

[Nightfyre]

Pil is manageable if you got three well equipped CORs on standby to rape its shield. Removes the luck factor.

Even that is overkill really. Have the RNG go /COR if you so desire for 2x QDs, bring a DRK if you want too, but given that the shield is vulnerable to one type of damage you should be taking it down very quickly every time with or without Quick Draw. Requiescat speeds things up even more if someone has it.

[Gippo]

but given that the shield is vulnerable to one type of damage you should be taking it down very quickly every time with or without Quick Draw.

...until Pil does flank opening, a GA4 , a ja, or any other of his rape tp moves goes off and kills your dds. At lower %, Pil spams Bishop's Gambit as well, and cors can quickly be waiting on their shot recasts.

ITT - All inflated talk from people who shrug off this mob as a pushover when they know its not because it's BG

[Nightfyre]

...until Pil does flank opening, a GA4 , a ja, or any other of his rape tp moves goes off and kills your dds. At lower %, Pil spams Bishop's Gambit as well, and cors can quickly be waiting on their shot recasts.

ITT - All inflated talk from people who shrug off this mob as a pushover when they know its not because it's BG

MDT set and/or knowing when to back off in order to stay alive (should only have a couple DDs at most during shield). Sorry I don't suck as much as your DDs... not BG, just truth.

[Yugl]

Reminds me of that COR spamming ice shot during a pick up run. Great times. Though Pil is a bitch when he goes on for over 15min of blue-onry (The light, not the class) procs. That shit is annoying.

[Byrthnoth]

The reason we almost require such ridiculous buffs/temp items to have endgame events anymore is because the damage dealing system is fundamentally flawed. I understand what a huge pain in the ass it would be to re-work monster-player pDIF and the impact of vitality/defense, along with pretty much every other spell and ability related to reducing damage taken, but that's pretty much what must be done if you want events that are survivable without Fanatic's Drinks or 3000+HP at this point. The game is old, and they gave us so many crutches to get around their stupid damage taken system at level 75 that now it's hard to change.

[Lordender]

The reason we almost require such ridiculous buffs/temp items to have endgame events anymore is because the damage dealing system is fundamentally flawed. I understand what a huge pain in the ass it would be to re-work monster-player pDIF and the impact of vitality/defense, along with pretty much every other spell and ability related to reducing damage taken, but that's pretty much what must be done if you want events that are survivable without Fanatic's Drinks or 3000+HP at this point. The game is old, and they gave us so many crutches to get around their stupid damage taken system at level 75 that now it's hard to change.

Pretty much, you can tell the game wasn't meant for the players to be fighting shit so much higher level or mobs with much higher stats with the formula's they use for combat. SE also repeated this mistake in XIV, the game becomes an impossible mess to balance when you have such a clusterfuck with the damage formula.

I think in WoW they got it right, the raid bosses don't have superior defense but they require more hit % than regular dungeon bosses. In WoW as a caster it takes 17% hit to never miss a spell, for a melee its about 9% hit for special attacks, 23-26 expertise or so to not get an attack parried, its pretty straight forward there but in FFXI they use this cryptic ass formula that is just flat out ass when it comes to fighting HNM because of heavily skewed stats.

Balance In other games:

Get x amount of gear so you can handle the content. Every class performs well, some damage dealing classes might be a few %'s better due to fight mechanic's and movement required.

In FFXI its

Watch out, this mob spams tp moves for lots of damage, this mob cannot be enfeebled(makes a job useless).
This mob can spam 2hours that defies all logic of game balance.
This mob casts all these retarded un-stunnable spells or you can stun a few of them before it builds stun immunity.
This mob hate resets every 15 seconds.
This mob dooms or flat out casts death on you.

It is impossible to balance anything properly when you have all of that going on along with some very shoddy damage formula's, classes being completely useless etc.

[NynJa]

I'd like to know your win % on Pil then, because that nm is still a crapshoot. Luck plays a huge factor in success/failure on some of the higher tier voidwatch.

Not that I've fought Pill 99999 times...so far 6/6 on the fight and there was never really any danger of timing out or wiping.

[Draylo]

If you go with shout groups, Pil is most definitely dependent on luck... I get so many shit shout groups that it can definitely seem hard lol. I've sat in PDT or MDT set for a few of its WS and still got one shotted, E armor/scherzo help with that. Also BLU is pretty nice for the shield as you can do various types of DMG, which can be good as most people don't seem to realize you can dmg it outside of QD if its weak to something they have, like piercing, but they just don't swap to that weapon and sit and wait for a proc.