Dev Tracker

[Darkmagi]

I'm just enraged that instead of gaining new abilities and becoming more powerful, that a class is getting weakened at 99. It's quite depressing at how underwhelming 99 has been so far.

[Raen Ryong]

You have great access to pdt/mdt gear, Retaliation, Seigan or Utsusemi. On par or better than most of the other DDs (assuming Evasion isn't a factor) unless I'm missing something (and this is ignoring Bravura).

[Taint]

Am I the only one who read this and figured this guy a butthurt drk?

Not sure how you got that out of my post?

I'm not for the nerfs at all. Most of my friends have 95/90 Ukon's and they help get stuff done fast. My only point was Shoha currently doesn't touch UF which most people imply that it does.

[solanis]

really, utsusemi? seigan? lol

[Raen Ryong]

What defensive abilities do the other weaker jobs have which justify you being top DD by miles?

[ronin sparthos]

really, utsusemi? seigan? lol

WAR has access to the same defense tools most of the other "glass cannon" DD have so I don't see what you're getting at? DRG has what? hate-shedding jumps? lol DRK? Dread Spikes? lol

[solanis]

What defensive abilities do the other weaker jobs have which justify you being top DD by miles?

nin and mnk have plenty, do I really need to list it off? all I'm seeing is a non-war happy that you'll potentially get to shine a bit more, as much as I'm a war butthurt that my job is likely to become even more of a proccing-only hellhole.

[Raen Ryong]

NIN and MNK are two jobs I would agree you could justify not being a top DD. What about DRK, DRG? DNC, THF, BLU, PUP you could make an argument for but so far behind? Also, why are people concerned about SAM overtaking WAR? Why must WAR arbitrarily be the top DD when SAM has roughly the same defence - why should SAM not be the top?

I don't even play anymore so I'm not bothered whether they make WAR do 4x as much damage as it does now or 0.4x. I'm just not seeing why it should always be the king DD just because it always has been.

[solanis]

NIN and MNK are two jobs I would agree you could justify not being a top DD. What about DRK, DRG? DNC, THF, BLU, PUP you could make an argument for but so far behind? Also, why are people concerned about SAM overtaking WAR? Why must WAR arbitrarily be the top DD when SAM has roughly the same defence - why should SAM not be the top?

I don't even play anymore so I'm not bothered whether they make WAR do 4x as much damage as it does now or 0.4x. I'm just not seeing why it should always be the king DD just because it always has been.

DRG's jumps make a huge difference in VW in particular. I don't know much about DRK tbh, I gave up on the job out of frustration months ago although I know some shit has changed for them recently. DNC doesn't have much of a role in endgame, but the answer to fixing DNC isn't fucking over WAR. BLU is already fucking amazing, THF isn't a heavy DD job so I don't know why you're even bringing that up, and PUP is pretty goddamn powerful too. I don't see any balance issues with things the way they are already. WAR has palpably fewer defensive traits when used properly as other jobs, so it makes sense for our damage output to be proportionally higher.

[Raen Ryong]

DRG's jumps make a huge difference in VW in particular.

I won't pursue this point since I have no experience in VW.

DNC doesn't have much of a role in endgame, but the answer to fixing DNC isn't fucking over WAR.

If you want to give the lower damage jobs a role in endgame, you can either buff their damage or nerf the higher damages so the damage discrepancy isn't that big.

BLU is already fucking amazing

It's a lot better than people give it credit for, but still struggles against level correction thanks to craptastic Blue Magic "Attack". Things like Heavy Strike don't help either.

THF isn't a heavy DD job so I don't know why you're even bringing that up

Why not? That's just a definition based on its history. If they made THF the top DD from the beginning of the game until the end, you wouldn't consider it anything but a heavy DD (unless by heavy DD you mean strictly 2hander; but again, why? This excludes so many jobs). There isn't anything about THF that should deny it a shot at being a strong DD, even if not top.

and PUP is pretty goddamn powerful too.

I don't know much about PUP admittedly, but is it within ~5% of WAR or SAM?

I don't see any balance issues with things the way they are already. WAR has palpably fewer defensive traits when used properly as other jobs, so it makes sense for our damage output to be proportionally higher.

By used properly, do you mean fulltiming Hasso?

[Darkmagi]

You can't judge a jobs usefulness by how good it is in one event. My main argument was lowman/solo ability. The lesser damaging jobs exceed greatly in solo play, even if you don't find that relevant.

[lolwut]

I won't pursue this point since I have no experience in VW.



If you want to give the lower damage jobs a role in endgame, you can either buff their damage or nerf the higher damages so the damage discrepancy isn't that big.



It's a lot better than people give it credit for, but still struggles against level correction thanks to craptastic Blue Magic "Attack". Things like Heavy Strike don't help either.



Why not? That's just a definition based on its history. If they made THF the top DD from the beginning of the game until the end, you wouldn't consider it anything but a heavy DD (unless by heavy DD you mean strictly 2hander; but again, why? This excludes so many jobs). There isn't anything about THF that should deny it a shot at being a strong DD, even if not top.



I don't know much about PUP admittedly, but is it within ~5% of WAR or SAM?



By used properly, do you mean fulltiming Hasso?

Thf has amazing evasion and hate transfer abilities. Blu has a wide assortment of group/self buffs, debuffs, nukes, defensive spells and self cures. Pup has nuking and healing capabilities in addition to their dd frames. Dancer has self/group heals, buffs, and debuffs. If they need to be within 5% of DD only jobs, Rdm should nuke within 5% of Blm.

War hits things, and has no other useful functions. All defensive capabilities it has (bar defender, but lol defender) are granted by subjobs, and are available to the other jobs listed here. It shouldn't be nerfed. Make Quietus a crit ws, remove the attack penalty from Drakesbane, and raise the Overwhelm cap. You now have the 4 jobs that are defined only by their melee damage balanced without nerfing anything.

[Darkmagi]

Even DRG is a hybrid job though, so I doubt they would bump drg up to heavy DD calibur. Healing breath etc.

[Greatguardian]

What would you do to make this the case? Would have to be some pretty amazing utility

It would, but that's really the best solution despite being one that SE seems to be having so much trouble with.

Fixing TH for one thing would be nice. Sure, Thief is never going to keep up with a Warrior, but they're not supposed to. They're evasive, and they stab things from behind and don't afraid of anything.

Puppet AI fix is nice. Pup will never touch a real DD when haste buffs come into the picture, but their puppet is fairly versatile and can offer some handy shit.

Ranger and Corsair are pretty obviously niche ranged jobs, and excel in their roles (at least COR does), so they don't really need much tweaking.

Summoner would benefit from the ability to use BP:Rs whenever their pet had 100 TP in addition to forcing them every 45 seconds, but it's also one of those niche "Hate free, ranged, disposable damage" types that excels at what it does but just isn't very useful once stronger jobs are able to deal damage without dying. Focusing more on Summoner's support capacity may honestly benefit them the most, even if it's not what most Summoners want. Earthen Armor and Avatar's Favor give them a reason to exist in a solid group where before they had nothing.

Dark Knight really needs a complete overhaul of their casting mechanisms. Giving them shitty elemental nukes in the first place was a terrible idea.

There's also the fact that heavy DDs lack lowman utility which other jobs excel in. Monk manages to stay strong lowman, but it's also not king of the hill DD-wise either. Samurai and Warrior aren't much different defensively, and require taking a major hit on their damage in order to tank. In these situations, Thieves, Ninjas, and Dancers are far more effective.

No class is good at everything. War is good at one thing. Reduce their DD effectiveness too much and the job becomes redundant.

[Toth]

I just feel that light DDs should never be up to par with the defenseless heavy DDs. If not purely because of their solo utility, most of them have other utlity as well. DRK is already almost as good as the top 3, and gains stun to make up for some of it's lost damage. I don't see a problem with drk really.

Unfortunately, most people do not have that mindset and simply boil everything down to BEST DAMAGE = BEST JOB, no exceptions. I have had WARs tell me not keep my automaton out and on mobs because it 'gimps' my damage. I know quite a few primadonnas who are going to be very upset over this but I can't help but smile. These nerfs are not going to cripple these jobs and may finally provide some with a little humility (lol I know right...).

[lolwut]

Even DRG is a hybrid job though, so I doubt they would bump drg up to heavy DD calibur. Healing breath etc.

Drk has a good degree of utility as well between Drains, Stun, and Bash, and Sam gets a bash and native seigan/3e, but not on the level of jobs like Blu Dnc or Thf which have very solid abilities beyond their dd capabilities.

I'd still put them both in the primary dd category though, and buff them accordingly.

I think the nerf is stupid, but it bothers me more because of the jobs they aren't improving (sup Rdm) while focusing on weakening others.

[Raen Ryong]

I think I may be looking it too one-dimensionally in effect... I suppose what I should be looking for is content which fully uses the power of each job rather than just balancing it around a flat encounter.

[Damane]

In fairness, Smite and Ukko's were long overdue nerfs. They have been ridiculous WS'es for quite some time and one of the main reasons MNK and WAR dominated all the other jobs. And they have refused to buff other jobs to those levels.

On the flipside, it will just shift the focus more towards SAM so it's not like much changes. You still end up with heavily favoured DD jobs.

nerfs are bad, if you look at the last 2 updates, there have been some nerfs (war restraint) etc. SE stepped away from nerfs since the rng incidence... They are starting to nerf the living hell out of this game, just to make it "Balanced" (aka they can again introduce mobs that need death chainspalle, or 1-2 sec enmity reset moves etc.).

I mean I wont complain, those 2 war nerfs arent touching me in the slightest since I am a bravura user, but nerfs are never good.

[Darkmagi]

Yeah my biggest issue with the nerfs is that other jobs that really could use a buff are just getting neglected instead.

[lolwut]

I mean I wont complain, those 2 war nerfs arent touching me in the slightest since I don't use Blood Rage with Mighty Strikes, but nerfs are never good.

oic.