Dev Tracker

[Greatguardian]

I think I may be looking it too one-dimensionally in effect... I suppose what I should be looking for is content which fully uses the power of each job rather than just balancing it around a flat encounter.

This is a problem with ffxi as a whole, though. Fights all end up becoming one-dimensional "Kill it before it kills you" fests. Even adding gimmicks like triggers doesn't really change the nature of battles in this game. This forces multidimensional jobs to be evaluated on the basis of only one single facet - their ability to make things not be alive any more.

[Ocara]

It feels like there hasn't been much actual progression from 95>99, because either all the new ws are sidegrades, worse, or only marginally better than the alternatives (tachi: fuckyou and the couple exceptions out of 14+ notwithstanding.)

What's the point of giving us new traits/spells/abilities if they're just going to nerf other things until we're back at the same average strength we were 5 levels ago? From a game design perspective, they're going back to the old ffxi 'NO PROGRESSION, SIDEGRADE ONLY' bullshit.

[Slycer]

It feels like there hasn't been much actual progression from 95>99

Yep. One can't help but feel that they're holding out for level 99 merited spells and/or abilities. Prior to merits, there aren't really any substantial spells or abilities introduced for jobs between 71 and 75 either, and this sort of feels like that.

[Yugl]

Some of you guys need to be more honest about your evaluations. I hear tons of lolthis and lolthat but whenever it comes time to bring them on par, there's always a reason to bitch about the changes. Three small issues:

1. BLU is only incredible in solo situations and the utility under those conditions is barely beneficial. The bulk of content soloed is outdated content. It other words, they're largely irrelevant for what matters. It's even worse in VW where we spend points procing mobs because "WAHHH BLU would be overpowered setting all their spells!". DRG is within this same predicament. Who the fuck cares what DRG is soloing sub mage? Is there really any content that DRG solos that you honestly give a fuck about? More rhetorically, I think you guys need to review the logic under which you respond to DRG's reduced melee potential and tanking potential because they contradict each other. People claim the former because of DRG's healing potential. They claim DRG has the latter because of their hate-shedding jumps. However, hate-shedding isn't a tanking capability. In other words, the capability avoids the problem of tanking by excluding DRG from tanking. I hope that it becomes clear what follows. DRG gets sub-par healing, no tanking, and intentionally sub-par DD. Other DDs get no healing, high DD, and exceptional/sub-par tanking. Do you see the issue now? Lastly, it's quite ridiculous to think of these classes in such broad terms. Healing and tanking really don't tell me what a class does. There's an incredible difference between DNC and WHM even though they both qualify under "healing." That's the problem with these debates. People cast aside rightfully necessary buffs in using broad labels that really have no meaning.

2. The problem I finished with in (1) blocks tweaks necessary to "fix" the game. For example, many people have problems with THF becoming TH dedicated because TH is inapplicable to many situations. However, if SE were to make TH incredibly relevant in these cases (Perhaps with a mechanic that allows for multiple THFs), then what would be the issue? And I don't mean TH as is either. I mean general treasure acquisition whether that mean boxes or otherwise. An even bigger dimension is the PT-DD. Consider alliances willing to accept DRG for angon. Why can't the concept of sacrificing individual melee damage for improved alliance damage become a new role? I've been working on that role for DRG because WS like stardiver (Though the effect should be greater) and Angon push DRG into this class. From a mathematical perspective, the consequence is quite interesting since you no longer calculate the damage of a single DD but of the benefit gained by the entire alliance in conjunction with individual DD.

[Septimus]

Unfortunately, most people do not have that mindset and simply boil everything down to BEST DAMAGE = BEST JOB, no exceptions. I have had WARs tell me not keep my automaton out and on mobs because it 'gimps' my damage. I know quite a few primadonnas who are going to be very upset over this but I can't help but smile. These nerfs are not going to cripple these jobs and may finally provide some with a little humility (lol I know right...).

The problem is that a prima donna like that will just run and level up the new best job, get the gear needed, and be a prima donna about that job as if they played it forever. Make no doubt, those WARs who told you to put away the automaton will suddenly become lifelong Puppetmasters if PUP starts winning parses.

[lolwut]

DRG gets sub-par healing, no tanking, and intentionally sub-par DD. Other DDs get no healing, high DD, and exceptional/sub-par tanking. Do you see the issue now?

The problem is, once you move to Drg getting sub-par healing, no tanking, hate shedding and high DD, the other DDs become superfluous because Drg can do exactly what they did but more self sufficiently.

The concept of trading off all non dd utility in exchange for the highest damage potential is the basis of how they designed War. The same thing goes for Blu. If you gave Blu the ability to deal damage within a 5% margin of a War or Sam, what would you bring any other job for? You'd just have a self healing, self buffing army of Blus tackling all content with a Whm and a Brd.

To go back to my previous example, giving jobs with additional utilities Warrior tier damage is similar to giving a Rdm nuking ability/gear on par with a Blm's. Why would you even bother bringing the glass cannon?

I fully agree with your second point though. SE has gone out of their way to make a number of hybrid classes in this game without actually expanding the niches they're supposed to fill, and there are far more interesting gameplay opportunities to be found in building those niches than what we currently have, nerfs or not.

[blue]

In before "I was warrior before it was cool.jpg".
Hope we blow it out of proportions and this nerfing will not become a trend after their "mistake" abyssea and abort all good stuff.

[Atoreis]

What exactly defense abilities has MNK when you cant counter stuff? (which is pretty much everything from jeuno t3 Zilart t3 Jeuno t4,t5,t6 beside akvan,smierc,gwynn and I think thats it?)

[Deader2818]

Dodge, duh.

[Yugl]

The problem is, once you move to Drg getting sub-par healing, no tanking, hate shedding and high DD, the other DDs become superfluous because Drg can do exactly what they did but more self sufficiently.

It's not self-sufficiently though. Lets say you're self-sufficient if you can tank or heal yourself reliably. The former is no greater than any other melee. Less than other melees if you consider hate shedding. Consequently, you still need a DD to tank. The latter condition is not met in conjunction with high DD. If you maximize healing frequency, you sacrifice "high DD" by subbing mage. If you sub mage, healing frequency dramatically reduces (600 HP every 1min). Moreover, all of this depends on your pet surviving AOE and one-hit attacks (Still unresolved with Steady Wing). Even if you could keep the pet up using JA/items, doing so diminishes your DD potential. There's no way to make the claim of self-sufficiency in this case.

The concept of trading off all non dd utility in exchange for the highest damage potential is the basis of how they designed War. The same thing goes for Blu. If you gave Blu the ability to deal damage within a 5% margin of a War or Sam, what would you bring any other job for? You'd just have a self healing, self buffing army of Blus tackling all content with a Whm and a Brd.

What would be the point of bringing the WHM if you're self healing and self buffing? The whole point of party-alliance content is division of labor. When you're already resigned towards division of labor, you're better off maximizing roles. If you're not resigned to division of labor, then multi-tasking roles come into consideration. At this point, you need to be event specific because you to ask whether a class can handle multiple roles during the event. If they cannot, then you go back to the original point: maximize the role. If you can, then you use the multi-tasking class if that reduces your numbers. Unfortunately, this condition rarely arises in a manner that favors the existing multi-task classes.

[machiko]

Ninja nerfs are back too now?

Counter attacks now skill Evasion instead of the equipped weapon's skill.

Evasion checks before Counter Attack, and this used to the the only way to skill up 2-handers quickly.

Tanaka is now officially an egregious ninjanerfing asshole!

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.htm...57877181&p=1#7

[Byrthnoth]

The whole "removing DA II and Critical Attack Bonus III" was a ninja nerf in the day before the update went live, so I guess so.

[lolwut]

It's not self-sufficiently though. Lets say you're self-sufficient if you can tank or heal yourself reliably. The former is no greater than any other melee. Less than other melees if you consider hate shedding. Consequently, you still need a DD to tank. The latter condition is not met in conjunction with high DD. If you maximize healing frequency, you sacrifice "high DD" by subbing mage. If you sub mage, healing frequency dramatically reduces (600 HP every 1min). Moreover, all of this depends on your pet surviving AOE and one-hit attacks (Still unresolved with Steady Wing). Even if you could keep the pet up using JA/items, doing so diminishes your DD potential. There's no way to make the claim of self-sufficiency in this case.

Using your definition, replace self-sufficiency with greater efficiency, since we've already assumed both classes will have no tanking ability in your initial descriptions. You're then left with the job that can only deal damage and the job that has the ability to deal the same amount of damage and has additional self healing and hate shedding utility. Drg would still be a lesser burden on the requisite healer and tank for a equal damage return, barring the loss of the pet, if you balanced the damage of the two classes. War fundamentally needs to do more damage than other jobs in order to maintain it's viability.

What would be the point of bringing the WHM if you're self healing and self buffing? The whole point of party-alliance content is division of labor. When you're already resigned towards division of labor, you're better off maximizing roles. If you're not resigned to division of labor, then multi-tasking roles come into consideration. At this point, you need to be event specific because you to ask whether a class can handle multiple roles during the event. If they cannot, then you go back to the original point: maximize the role. If you can, then you use the multi-tasking class if that reduces your numbers. Unfortunately, this condition rarely arises in a manner that favors the existing multi-task classes.

It rarely favors multi task classes because they are rarely both multi task and best in class. Giving a multi task maximized ability in a single role elevates it above other classes in that role. In an Ein/old Dyna style mass kill event, Blu's with dd output equal to best in class could defeat their targets with greater efficiency than tank/dd/healer group while multi tasking. In a HNM style, they would be maximize their dd role self sufficiently while allowing the tank/healer combo to perform their functions without focusing on keeping them alive/buffed. They have both magical and physical damage, as well as multiple damage types and ranges along with their own debuffs, and can self sc/mb, so their utility should remain consistent across multiple types of battles. While there could still be niche uses for other classes, Blu would be the default damage class.

What your saying is true in FFXI as it currently exists, but would not in a game where multi task classes have equal strength to dedicated classes. Without a separation of powers, the multi class is incontestably king.

[Karbuncle]

Just read all the updates...

I want to find the "Job Vision" Update they released how they explained "We don't want to weaken Warrior, Only buff other jobs" and stamp a "Tanaka Denied" over it.

Nerf the fuck out of everything - no exceptions.

I mean, Nerfing Victory Smite and Ukkos... Wasn't enough? Blood Rage too?

[Julian]

I didn't know Warriors could use Victory Smite. Wow, they were really overpowered!

[Karbuncle]

It was mentioned in the WS nerfs, I was compiling it in my sentence because i felt it needed to be added, as it was unnecessary as well. It was just the main focus of that was WAR nerfs. VS was a side effect. I did say "Read all the update notes".

I think you're being sarcastic but I can't tell. Not your fault, Browsing Official Forums melts my brain... So many people there would have honestly needed the clarification

[Foxer]

He's kidding. Stop crying.

[Karbuncle]

I wasn't crying.

Admittedly, Browsing the Official forums has made me less... aware... Of other peoples meanings. Everyone there would seriously be stupid enough to assume that.

Anyway, I've edited it to make it more clear. Now. Kindly blow me good gent.

[hexagram23]

So what did "Double Attack II" do exactly? Just more often?

[Karbuncle]

About 2% more Double Attack i think it was parsed at.