Dev Tracker

[Deader2818]

If WAR is still a good margin ahead of anything else post-nerf, then it definitely warranted the nerf. If anything, it deserves a harsher one. The solution would be to (potentially heavily) nerf the outlying top DDs, (potentially heavily) buff the outlying bottom DDs, and adjust from there.

WAR being ahead is one thing, WAR dominating is another.

Honestly, a big problem is, if ukko and smite were SOOO obviously broken, why did it take them over a year to make changes, after people already invested into those jobs based on how well their emps were. If it was nerfed shortly after it was release, and diffidently before 95 trials, im sure the outrage wouldnt be as huge.

[Obsidian]

That's their job. Do you not understand that? It's not as if this is a free-to-play MMORPG. It's not as if SE is a charity. You're basically saying "sympathize with them for wanting to do less work", and I can't. It's not as if this is a hobby for them, they are running a business.

And design experience means jack shit. Look at the train wreck that is FFXIV. Let's not act like SE is so good at what they do that it's impossible to conceive of them screwing something up. The only reason you're agreeing with this nerf is because you think it's justified. Meaning, they were wrong for a year while these WSs were OP. What was your opinion of SE's brilliant "design experience" then?

Their job is to balance the game. The best way to do is to nerf Ukko's Fury. Being the best while being the "easiest" is coincidental.

Giving Ukko's Fury those mods in the first place was a poor decision, and now it's being corrected. I'm not really sure why you think the game should revolve around WAR, but the fact that's it's even considered the standard for everything else to be buffed to is a sign that's it's overpowered and needs a nerf. Making everything overpowered is an overly convoluted solution to a simple problem (and yes, those Ukko's numbers are a problem). Demanding that the development team redesign the game around Ukko's Fury simply because you feel entitled to a weapon skill of that calibur is asinine, when it would require several orders of magnitude more work to accomplish the same thing that tweaking Ukko's Fury will.

[scaevola]

Honestly, a big problem is, if ukko and smite were SOOO obviously broken, why did it take them over a year to make changes, after people already invested into those jobs based on how well their emps were. If it was nerfed shortly after it was release, and diffidently before 95 trials, im sure the outrage wouldnt be as huge.

Does it matter?

Seriously; everybody makes these claims about how the outrage wouldn't have been so extreme if the WSes had been nerfed immediately (ignoring the glacial pace at which SE has ALWAYES balanced jobs; see Ranger still slowly recovering from a single nerf 7 years ago), but nobody ever explains why that matters even if it's correct.

[Raen Ryong]

Honestly, a big problem is, if ukko and smite were SOOO obviously broken, why did it take them over a year to make changes, after people already invested into those jobs based on how well their emps were. If it was nerfed shortly after it was release, and diffidently before 95 trials, im sure the outrage wouldnt be as huge.

This is true, and while keeping people happy should be a massive concern, I feel that controversial changes should still be made if they're good for the game as a whole.

"Better late than never" is a common cliché, and somewhat appropriate here. SE are slow at fixing long-term problems in general, yet it is better that they do eventually fix them than not fix them.

I know that BG as a community is very focused on being top-tier at FFXI, and thus a large proportion are Warriors, but you must examine the nerf objectively and try not to let bias cloud your judgment. Regardless of timing, it is still a justified nerf.

[arus2001]

My main concern is if this is all just a precursor to further nerfs. Poking fun at that little number line, but if WAR's the 10 and they scale them back to 6, what's to stop SE from doing the same to the 7, 8, and 9? I seem to recall SE saying something along the lines of being okay with overpowering a certain aspect of a job if it meant needing that to preserve its identity. If the thought was WARs were to HULK SMASH with Ukko's, mission accomplished. However, similar luxuries to other jobs have apparently been absent since, and enter the Tanaka.

[Prothescar]

You're way overestimating the effects of this nerf. WAR is still an 8.

[Selamis]

The thing is, the devs should have gave everything a slight bump, regardless of time involved instead of taking the cheap and lazy route. How can anyone, anytime actively cheer on a nerf and say it's a good thing? Did you cheer when rng got nerfed? Kclub Drk nerf? Changes to certain mob resistance to enfeebles and elemental magic? If you did, I might think you were envious of the job and because you didn't have it, it's a good nerf in your mind. (not anyone in particular, just in general.) How many times is SE going to nerf things in the future because it doesn't work as they think it should, despite the players having no issue with it? It's a dangerous slope whenever people start cheering on nerfs.

We as a community should never wish for things to be weakened, we should instead wish to see things adjusted upwards. We're 24 levels higher than we used to be, why the hell are we still basing things off of level 75 stats and a false sense of balance that has never existed in this game? There's always been one job that's been above others, and there's always been certain niche jobs that are good at certain things.

Give the other ws a 5% increase, cut VS/Ukko by 5%, give mobs more hp to offset the occasional critical attacks, give certain future mobs resistance to certain things, trash mobs will still be trash so that shouldn't matter.

[orson]

Orson, how many "bad signs" have SE given you over the near-decade? Honest question. If the thousands of "bad signs" of the past haven't turned you away, this one certainly will not.

Actually I quit this mth. The nerf is only the icing on the cake the main reason is the last couple of updates have been pushing the game back into past even though the level cap is going up.

No job deserves to thoroughly dominate one aspect of the game as powerfully as Warrior has dominated DD for such a long time. If this was DRK or THF or hell even PUP, I would be supporting the nerf because if you have an anomaly it makes more sense to "balance" it than to make the rest of your data fit the anomaly.

EDIT: As for Warriors feeling discontent about this, that's a fair reaction but at the same time when you were god tier before and still very powerful after, it seems a bit unreasonable. While it's true that this is THE big update to 99 and you should feel incredible, sometimes it's simply not realistic to continuously buff something that is already extremely powerful to preserve (/create) balance.

So Wars can basically do one thing as good as any other job and you think it's unrealistic that shouldn't be the equal to everyone else? Dominating for such a long time? Seriously get real Ukko's has been in the game for how long? Before that plenty of jobs were really close, on par, or better than War at damage in a particular event. You should recognize that players have a right to be upset about nerfs when the game is supposed to increasing in power.

[Prothescar]

So Wars can basically do one thing as good as any other job and you think it's unrealistic that shouldn't be the equal to everyone else?

What game are you playing? As good as everyone else my ass, it outright destroys everyone else. On top of its damage potential, WAR has the most weapon procs of any other job and also has great tanking ability. Leveling out the one job that's fucked beats having to level out a dozen or more that can't come close to matching a WAR in DD or procs, tanking can be done by most DDs though.

WAR has been the best DD out there for many years now, being eclipsed only by Polearm SAM in some events. That won't change because of a small nerf to your still powerful weaponskill, which is still the strongest weaponskill available to any job.

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"Just buff everything else to do as much damage as WAR!"

The damage that other jobs can do right now is fine. Why do you need more?

We've increased in power with the level cap raise by proxy. Your weaponskill is still plenty powerful and loses almost nothing.

[Deader2818]

So, if even after this nerf, WAR is still the top dog, and other jobs basically still won't be able to keep/surpass war, doesn't the nerf basically do nothing but hurt groups as a whole by killing slower then before?

[Prothescar]

It greatly lowers the gap and allows for much more subtle changes to 1-2 classes rather than sweeping changes to a dozen or more. They're already starting the subtle changes with DRG.

[Selamis]

On top of its damage potential, WAR has the most weapon procs of any other job and also has great tanking ability. Leveling out the one job that's fucked beats having to level out a dozen or more that can't come close to matching a WAR in DD or procs, tanking can be done by most DDs though.

WAR has been the best DD out there for many years now, being eclipsed only by Polearm SAM in some events. That won't change because of a small nerf to your still powerful weaponskill, which is still the strongest weaponskill available to any job.

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We've increased in power with the level cap raise by proxy. Your weaponskill is still plenty powerful and loses almost nothing.

1a. So because War has been able to use the most weapons and ws, since the history of being one of the original jobs, therefor they have the most procs, it's ok to nerf their damage now when the two don't come anywhere close to being relevant to one another?

1b. You don't have to make EVERY job as strong as War, as I said, give other ws a 5% boost, cut Ukko's Fury by 5%, it still weakens it but doesn't cut it's mod by 50% across all levels of tp. And why the hell should a dnc, pup, thf, bst, etc even be close to a war's damage output? As long as the 2H DD jobs are close to one another, they should always be ahead of weaker dd potential jobs.

2. We've increased in power in stats alone, outside of a handful of the new ws they added, most people are still using things from level 50/60 because the newer ones just don't add up and aren't worth blowing 100 merits on to do damage that's consistent or slightly less than older ws. If you put the time in to make an Emperian weapon, you shouldn't have some of that work negated, in fact it makes things easier for everyone to leave it as is.

Having Ukon wars helps the alliance take down the tougher vwnm fights more easily, just the same as at 75 aegis pld made certain fights laughable, that others would struggle more with. Or how 75 relic sams or rng made fights easier and Apoc drks were broken. 75 Ghorn brd, hey hey, makes fights easier than a regular brd, but we're getting back too much mp, better nerf it. Can you imagine the outrage 75 relic people would have felt, had this happened to them? They spent years sometimes making their ultimate weapon for whatever reason, e-peen, helping ls, personal desire...whatever...if SE suddenly went and decided "well hey, we know you spent all this time making this, but we decided a year after you've had it done that the stats are too strong and we're going to weaken them now" there would be an equal amount of outrage.

That's the problem with the nerf, and yes I know it's easier to make an Empy than Relic but still, it's time that people dedicated from their real life to get accomplished and now are being shit on because the devs and a small handful of the playerbase feel that war and ukon is overpowered. This after the fact too, that a few months ago we were told by the devs themselves (by way of Camate on the OF I think it was?) that they would not be negatively adjusting any stats for the players.

[Colenzo]

Or how about they just nerf the best crit hit WS in the game instead of making every job in the game as good as it? Do we really need to be able to take any random DD with a crit hit WS and throw it at something(assuming every job was the same) and just beat the fuck out of it regardless? I mean, it really is pretty fucking lame to expect them to build melee updates for each job around ukkos fury. If you think that "OMG JUST BUFF OTHER JOBS" then thats just stupid. Do you realize that you can throw ukko warriors at just about anything considered halfway hard and just completely melt its face off already? Do you think it would be justified to be able to do that with other jobs? If every job had a WS as potent as that right now then this game would be even more easy than it already is?

I for one think the game is fine the way it is and this litte "nerf" is totally fine. There are several ways to boost crit rate to make VS and Ukkos just as good as they were before. Corsair has critical hit rate%+ rolls, you can even get yourself a hachiryu body too! Oh man, oh jeez they nerfed the game. People need to change their god damn tampons and start using shit that they've put in the game. Throw a DRG in for some stardrivers, oh and while you're at it throw a DNC in there too if your vag is still leaking. Or you can pop a potency drink in VW if you're still crying after acquiring all these things. I don't know, I just think everybody has their vag in a knot over nothing.

[Prothescar]

Again, this "I spent heavy metal plates on my ukon because QQ" shit doesn't fly, that has nothing to do with the effectiveness of your weaponskill. Someone's spent 1500 plates on an Almace and the sword doesn't come close to Ukon, was it a waste for them? Nope. The Ukon that spent 1500 plates getting to 95 is still vastly superior to the 1500 plates Almace. Every empyrean weapon has an equal amount of work that needs to be done, so don't give me that shit.

Besides that, if my Almace were as fucked as Ukonvasara, I wouldn't bitch and moan about how it isn't fair, I'd cry about it for 2 days because I won't be spiking my weaponskills at 5~6k sometimes anymore and then move on when I realize that my weapon and weaponskill are still fucking ace and have received little detriment. MNK and PUP have room to complain, though, as Victory Smite was fine as-is.

So boo hoo, it took you a week or less to make your weapon with the shiny broken weaponskill attached. Go talk to a relic holder about being shit on.

[orson]

What game are you playing? As good as everyone else my ass, it outright destroys everyone else. On top of its damage potential, WAR has the most weapon procs of any other job and also has great tanking ability. Leveling out the one job that's fucked beats having to level out a dozen or more that can't come close to matching a WAR in DD or procs, tanking can be done by most DDs though.

WAR has been the best DD out there for many years now, being eclipsed only by Polearm SAM in some events. That won't change because of a small nerf to your still powerful weaponskill, which is still the strongest weaponskill available to any job.

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"Just buff everything else to do as much damage as WAR!"

The damage that other jobs can do right now is fine. Why do you need more?

We've increased in power with the level cap raise by proxy. Your weaponskill is still plenty powerful and loses almost nothing.

I'm not going to argue with you because you don't know what you're talking about. I just have a few points to bring up though. War has always been a top tier DD but Sam and Mnk have been in that spot for many many events as well. Abyssea era after the introduction of Ukko's was the only time War really had a distinct advantage over Sam and Mnk. this was also because the ludicrous amount of healing you could pump into a War/Sam using Hasso and Berserk. Finally are you just talking about merit parties (polearm Sam really?) because if that's the case you really need to have done more content.

[Prothescar]

If you think that merit parties were the only application of a Polearm SAM, then I would have to say that you don't know what you're talking about.

If you are seriously suggesting that WAR has never had an advantage over SAM and MNK, then I don't know what to tell you, and defensively WAR has always had access to a fine array of defensive gear, just like SAM.

Further, if you're in some way trying to suggest that WAR does not completely cripple every other DD when it comes to overall damage output, which I don't think you are however will mention just in case, then I still do not know what to tell you. You can't justify going against any of the claims that I've made, as they're all fact.

[Colenzo]

Polearm sam could out damage kraken club DRKs in certain zerg situations too. I mean if you really want to talk about polearm sams back in the day they were pretty good for other things outside of just merit parties. Of course these polearm sams would have to be doing it right for them to be worth a shit. But you could manage some pretty intense numbers on stuff with proper buffs.

[Deader2818]

This game just has way to many jobs. Should have just kept the starting 6 and then maybe add BRD and RNG.

[Prothescar]

Yes, too many jobs overlap. Redundancy is bound to cause problems, there's only so many things you can do to make jobs that do the same thing do it differently, however that does not mean make one job out of those jobs do it substantially better than the rest.

[Deader2818]

I mean really, you could just make every "DD" job do the same damage and not make them different all that much so then it just comes down to personal choices and no one can go "no, your job is useless, i dont care if you like it"