Dev Tracker

[Yugl]

NA blood *

[ronin sparthos]

The JPs aren't going to be happy unless there is blood, and they must be appeased.

Gaijin blood must be spilled.

It'll even be more amusing when the bans come with a letter from Tanaka on his way out the door.

[Elizara]

I have seen someone say elsewhere that this SMN "nerf" is actually meant to stop smns in fights where mobs must be supertanked from being beat up like a red headed stepchild when your Carby (and I mean any avatar, not just carby, really. this proly also pertains to beastmasters/puppetmasters) dies and the whole wad of mobs comes after the smn. Like Divine Might and Bismark.

It remains to be seen who's right tho ^^ It'll prolly be proven one way or the other after the update...

[6souls]

Yeah, I learned the hard way that skilling up summoning skill during Arch DL is a terrible terrible thing to do.

[fantasticdan]

I have seen someone say elsewhere that this SMN "nerf" is actually meant to stop smns in fights where mobs must be supertanked from being beat up like a red headed stepchild when your Carby (and I mean any avatar, not just carby, really. this proly also pertains to beastmasters/puppetmasters) dies and the whole wad of mobs comes after the smn. Like Divine Might and Bismark.

The problem isn't the mobs coming after the smn/bst/pup, the problem is it breaks super tanking completely, and they come after everyone. Once the pet owner is on the threat table, the entire alliance is on the threat table.

No one brings pet jobs to the toau/cop VW fights because of this, I'm sure that's why they're fixing it. It will probably break pet sac pulling, but does that really have any use these days?

[Tarage]

It will probably break pet sac pulling, but does that really have any use these days?

YES.

DON'T FUCKING BREAK IT.

[fantasticdan]

Such as?

I would brace yourself from them to FUCKING BREAK IT.

[NynJa]

I'm not sure how it would break pet sac pulling. As it stands now, it works like so:
Adds with 0 enmity attacking a PC attack the host in the party if a pet dies or is dismissed/leave/whatver, this is confirmed
Adds with 0 enmity attacking a pet will deaggro if the pet dies or is dismissed/leave/whatever, this seems to be confirmed since you're saying pet sac pull works. Achamoth's (loLZNM) adds seem to behave strangely if they spawn and Achamoth is attacking a pet: they immediately deaggro.

I think the problem is there seems to be a forced enmity spike on the pet host when the pet is killed/dismissed to all mobs targeting someone in your alliance, similar to how when you rest near someone supertanking (in your pt/alliance of course, and maybe someone you've acted on...has that one been tested?), you will pull hate.

[fantasticdan]

It has nothing to do with a hate 'spike', the problem is being on the hate table at all. It could cause 1VE/1CE, it would still break super tanking the same way.

The easiest way to think of it, is that when a pet dies/is dismissed, it creates an AoE pulse that puts the pet owner on the hate table, without actually performing an 'action' on the mob(similar to resting). If the surrounding mobs weren't in combat it does nothing, since there was no action to actually trigger combat/aggro. But if they were and not claimed to a different party, the SMN is added to the table with some amount of hate.

Pet pulling probably works in similar way, since I imagine (correct me if I'm wrong), the initial target mob doesn't have any hate on the SMN until the pet dies, or an additional pet command is performed, so the 'pulse' is what's actually pulling the mob. The mobs that had hate on your pet remain in combat with you, while the mobs that were being 'super tanked' by your pet get stuck in despawn/deaggro mode after their target dies.

If they solve the pet job vs super tanking problem in the most direct way, by removing the 'pulse' entirely, and pet pulling works how I'm guessing it does, than that would break it. I don't have an active account to test it myself, but if you just throw an avatar on something (a same element elemental is probably the easiest), perform no additional pet commands or actions on the mob, and try to pull hate with self cures/buffs/JAs, that should tell you.

[Tarage]

On some mobs, the act of preforming a job ability on it aggros.

[Byrthnoth]

Pet Pulling relies on the fact that the two necessary pet commands (Fight and Release) are hateless for the owner. This patch is very unlikely to affect it in any way. If they did affect it, then every action your avatar makes would be assigned to the owner and Summoner would lose its only notable strategic advantage (being a low hate DD).

[Odesseiron]

I doubt they're "dealing" with Neo-Nyzul, but if they do, they'll probably hand out infractions and hope that a majority of people aren't banned as a result. That would give them the appearance of taking a stance without closing accounts.

How's this when it's only dat files you're changing? There is no way they can tell on their end especially if you're on Skype or Vent. If you're retarded about it and talk about it in party then you deserve a ban.

[Alkar]

It has nothing to do with a hate 'spike', the problem is being on the hate table at all. It could cause 1VE/1CE, it would still break super tanking the same way.

The easiest way to think of it, is that when a pet dies/is dismissed, it creates an AoE pulse that puts the pet owner on the hate table, without actually performing an 'action' on the mob(similar to resting). If the surrounding mobs weren't in combat it does nothing, since there was no action to actually trigger combat/aggro. But if they were and not claimed to a different party, the SMN is added to the table with some amount of hate.

Pet pulling probably works in similar way, since I imagine (correct me if I'm wrong), the initial target mob doesn't have any hate on the SMN until the pet dies, or an additional pet command is performed, so the 'pulse' is what's actually pulling the mob. The mobs that had hate on your pet remain in combat with you, while the mobs that were being 'super tanked' by your pet get stuck in despawn/deaggro mode after their target dies.

If they solve the pet job vs super tanking problem in the most direct way, by removing the 'pulse' entirely, and pet pulling works how I'm guessing it does, than that would break it. I don't have an active account to test it myself, but if you just throw an avatar on something (a same element elemental is probably the easiest), perform no additional pet commands or actions on the mob, and try to pull hate with self cures/buffs/JAs, that should tell you.

Claiming something with a pet means that after your pet dies or is dismissed the claimed mob will go after the owner if no other action is performed (and if you're far enough you can resummon your avatar without getting hate at all). It used to work differently for Automatons because they were able to cast spells and not claim the mob so you could Deactivate it and the mob wouldn't chase you.
This is simply meant to fix a bug which gives a HUGE hate spike to the pet owner in specific situations. The two things are nothing alike because this bug will put the SMN/BST/PUP/DRG at very high enmity values making it almost impossible to get hate back in a short amount of time. It's not even a transfer of enmity from pet to owner because this happens on things that aren't claimed or damaged by anyone.

[NynJa]

The easiest way to think of it, is that when a pet dies/is dismissed, it creates an AoE pulse that puts the pet owner on the hate table, without actually performing an 'action' on the mob(similar to resting). If the surrounding mobs weren't in combat it does nothing, since there was no action to actually trigger combat/aggro. But if they were and not claimed to a different party, the SMN is added to the table with some amount of hate.

Once again, the results of the following two scenarios have different outcomes based on one different variable of situation:
1-Adds are super tanked (by purpose of being able to cure freely or by pet sac pull, there are mobs attacking someone or something without being on the hate list)
2-A pet dies from within the party, or is dismissed
3a-If the mobs with 0 enmity were attacking a pet, they simply deaggro (this is why pet sac pulling works, people are confirming this works both solo and in pt)
3b-If the mobs with 0 enmity were attacking a PC, they attack the pet host (this is why smn/drg suck in VW with adds)

[fantasticdan]

Pet Pulling relies on the fact that the two necessary pet commands (Fight and Release) are hateless for the owner. This patch is very unlikely to affect it in any way. If they did affect it, then every action your avatar makes would be assigned to the owner and Summoner would lose its only notable strategic advantage (being a low hate DD).

Release is not hateless for the owner for the owner thou, that's the problem. Deactivate used to be, and they 'fixed' it at some point I believe.

This is simply meant to fix a bug which gives a HUGE hate spike to the pet owner in specific situations. The two things are nothing alike because this bug will put the SMN/BST/PUP/DRG at very high enmity values making it almost impossible to get hate back in a short amount of time.

If they are simply reducing the amount of enmity caused by pet death/release, it won't solve the problem with pet jobs in the toau/cop VWs, which is what I imagine they are trying to fix.

3a-If the mobs with 0 enmity were attacking a pet, they simply deaggro (this is why pet sac pulling works, people are confirming this works both solo and in pt)
3b-If the mobs with 0 enmity were attacking a PC, they attack the pet host (this is why smn/drg suck in VW with adds)

The differences here are the target player isn't dying in 3b, and VW mobs aren't allowed to despawn/drop combat. Even if there are no players on the hate list, once the super tank/sac puller dies, the mobs know where players are and will gun for them, just like divine might.

[Alkar]

The problem is that the adds that weren't touched by anyone go after the pet owner for no reason AND there's a huge hate spike attached to it meaning that you can't take the adds off them no matter what.
It's not about reducing hate, there shouldn't be any hate to begin with.
Also Pet commands (like Assault, Retreat and Release not others) are hateless if:
1- they're performed before claiming a target;
2- they're performed far away from the target;
3- they're performed near a target that hasn't been claimed.
Deactivate didn't generate hate in the past because the Automaton casting on a mob did not claim it so as long as you Deactivated right after the spell hit you could simply resummon your Automaton and keep going on forever. What they fixed is that you claim with spells as well now not Deactivate itself.
Like I said this bug and pet pulling have nothing in common except the fact that pet jobs are involved. Pet pulling actually relies on the fact that once you Release your pet the adds won't come after you.

[NynJa]

The differences here are the target player isn't dying in 3b, and VW mobs aren't allowed to despawn/drop combat. Even if there are no players on the hate list, once the super tank/sac puller dies, the mobs know where players are and will gun for them, just like divine might.

I never said it had anything to do with the target player dying...it has to do with the target of the mobs.

2-A pet dies from within the party, or is dismissed
3a-If the mobs with 0 enmity are attacking a pet, ANY pet, anything that is not a PC, whos name is in turquoise, they simply deaggro (or in the case of VW would probably probably assist the NM)
3b-If the mobs with 0 enmity are attacking a PC (any character whos name is in white, or dark blue if anon), they attack the host of the pet for no apparent reason.

3a is why pet pulling works, because the target the adds are on are a NPC. As I said, I referenced Achamoth...when Achamoth is attacking a pet and it summons adds, they dont spawn. Why? I dont know.

[Khamsin]

Just a clarification. Pet pulling isn't a special mechanic exclusive to pets. It's the same mechanic as despawning links. You can have someone else claim a mob, link other unclaimed mobs with it, and pull them back. Then, whip out Ramuh and thunderspark or squall the claimed mob, and all the surrounding links that got hit will despawn when you release Ramuh. It has nothing to do with how much hate Assault or Release generate on your target. You could even link the mobs yourself before your pet, then aoe them and dismiss to shed hate. But your pet is more durable, so it's preferable to let it link them for you.

And it doesn't even have to do with pets. If someone aggros a dozen mobs, and you diaga them and die, the original aggroer will be hate-free.

[Yugl]

How's this when it's only dat files you're changing? There is no way they can tell on their end especially if you're on Skype or Vent. If you're retarded about it and talk about it in party then you deserve a ban.

You're conflating two different beliefs. The belief that I think think they'll ban and the belief of how they would 'ban' if they decide to take action.

[Byrthnoth]

Pretty much what Khamsin said. If they broke avatar pulling it would also break any form of sac pulling.

For the record though, release is hateless. If you assault a hard monster and do nothing else until your avatar dies, the monster will still come for you. If you use assault and release before your pet hits, it will not. Therefore neither action generates enmity.