Dev Tracker

[Jem]

Most of the people I know who played RDM/NIN at 75 either did it out of boredom or because they were lowmanning/holding stuff and it seemed safer.

I know that I personally far preferred DRK or PLD tanking and only resorted to RDM for a change of pace (or VNM's).

[Taint]

Most of the people I know who played RDM/NIN at 75 either did it out of boredom or because they were lowmanning/holding stuff and it seemed safer.

I know that I personally far preferred DRK or PLD tanking and only resorted to RDM for a change of pace (or VNM's).

With support Apoc DRK was the best tank at 75. Main tanking and being part of the stun rotation was always fun and intense.

[Jem]

Yeah I generally Apoc tanked whenever the chance presented itself but there wasn't always the support there to make it optimum.

[Guitarman]

Nothing like a full heal every time you WS. I love my gold toothpick.

[Ayn]

Nothing like a full heal every time you WS. I love my gold toothpick.

Until you whiff.

But I still love the blasted thing. I'll get it to 99. Somehow. ..Someday.

[Damane]

best tank was anyway BRD/NIN pre mazurka hate nerf, enough said!

[Zirael]

Pretty much anything could've tanked with enough curebombing. MNK was no better at it than DRK SAM or WAR. The issue was not so capping hate but mitigating enough damage (PDT/MDT, Third Eye, Utsu) and/or having enough self heals (PLD RDM DRK) so that stuff dies before your healers reach hate cap (riding C5 got you into MP trouble fast) and start eating TP moves.
Long ago I've read about someone tanking Cerberus on BRD before song enmity nerf, and I had no problem believing that. Did I mention WHM tanking? (no, I'm not joking).
On many fights lasting more than 3-5min MNK had nothing to offer once rest of the DDs caught up on hate. Blood tanking on a job that can can generate hate only by punching stuff wasn't the brightest idea. Remember only NINs had the luxury of going /drk or /war, pretty much everyone else had to ride /nin. Anyways, at this point all of that is moot and in the past.

[Septimus]

wat

Also seriously, we get it, you (you specifically) were a refresh bitch at 75 cap. You can stop bringing it up every time somebody utters the words "Red Mage", we got the point years ago.

Obviously not or people wouldn't be surprised that the moment that refresh became unimportant Red Mage became an endangered species. I don't see how this was not glaringly obvious to everyone else.

[Cairthenn]

Pchan lives in his own world where he thinks he understood the game mechanics as well as everyone does now (or has the potential to do now).

Lots of shit has changed. RDM was a good tank at a point in the games history, if you think otherwise you are simply incorrect.

[Dotsudoku]

Whether you believe RDM was a good tank during its prime or not, claiming that their enmity gain and maintenance was in any way worse than PLD is nonsense. We had documentation to the contrary for quite some time.

As far as sturdiness is concerned, pretending that two players in full PDT had any notable edge over the other based on equipment alone is just ignorant, and with that in mind, Stoneskin, Phalanx, and immensely faster spellcasting gave RDM a pretty obvious lead over others in raw durability.

(of course Apoc was better than everyone if your group could support it)

[Nightfyre]

Obviously not or people wouldn't be surprised that the moment that refresh became unimportant Red Mage became an endangered species. I don't see how this was not glaringly obvious to everyone else.

I never said it wasn't, I said you should have quit fucking griping about your personal horrors with the job at 75 by now. It's been two years and you still bring up the same old song and dance every single time. Let it go already.

[Damane]

Obviously not or people wouldn't be surprised that the moment that refresh became unimportant Red Mage became an endangered species. I don't see how this was not glaringly obvious to everyone else.

and thats why every RDM feared the level cap raise and I laughed my ass of as a whm and sch. I am glad they didnt make Convert red mage exclusiv. But hey they actually even made /rdm obsolete with the amount of refresh-idle-gear, enhanced sublimation traits, MP returned per amount of HP healed (whm +2 legs) etc. I think the last time I actually subed /rdm on whm was at lvl 90 cap.

[Teryu]

and thats why every RDM feared the level cap raise and I laughed my ass of as a whm and sch. I am glad they didnt make Convert red mage exclusiv. But hey they actually even made /rdm obsolete with the amount of refresh-idle-gear, enhanced sublimation traits, MP returned per amount of HP healed (whm +2 legs) etc. I think the last time I actually subed /rdm on whm was at lvl 90 cap.

Fastcast, diaga, subbable buffs, MABB, MDB.

[Septimus]

I never said it wasn't, I said you should have quit fucking griping about your personal horrors with the job at 75 by now. It's been two years and you still bring up the same old song and dance every single time. Let it go already.

I can keep arguing, but I am going to let it go.

and thats why every RDM feared the level cap raise and I laughed my ass of as a whm and sch. I am glad they didnt make Convert red mage exclusiv. But hey they actually even made /rdm obsolete with the amount of refresh-idle-gear, enhanced sublimation traits, MP returned per amount of HP healed (whm +2 legs) etc. I think the last time I actually subed /rdm on whm was at lvl 90 cap.

RDM is a great sub for BLM, SMN, and SCH. It is pretty jive that Convert is completely unnerfed as a sub when Yonin, Innin, Afflatus: Solace, and Afflatus: Misery are not available as a sub job and Sneak Attack, Trick Attack, Soul Eater, and Shadowbind are significantly nerfed.

[arus2001]

Convert being full potency when subbed doesn't bug me. I was frankly glad to see Refresh whoring largely go the way of the dodo and was one of those people who felt Refresh should've been learned by at least WHM back in the day, too. What does bug me is basically the minimalist attention the job's received despite 3 camps within it throwing all kinds of bones at SE to help make SOMETHING of it. Instead, we get ignorance with a spritz of players rejoicing the job's in shambles. I'd rather people not shut up about the subject, but that's also me wanting all jobs to be better designed than most are at present.

[Byrthnoth]

You are forgetting the vocal collection of idiots that insist the job is still all-powerful because they outparse their aurore tard thief bros.

[NynJa]

I think its time for SE to allow affilatus and yonin/innin to be active on SJ. There are other more powerful SJ abilities that work unhindered.

[Buffy]

I think its time for SE to allow affilatus and yonin/innin to be active on SJ. There are other more powerful SJ abilities that work unhindered.

Accession Haste needs to be allowed as well. Just wtf 2 years later at that.

[Economizer]

It is pretty jive that Convert is completely unnerfed as a sub when Yonin, Innin, Afflatus: Solace, and Afflatus: Misery are not available as a sub job and Sneak Attack, Trick Attack, Soul Eater, and Shadowbind are significantly nerfed.

Subjob abilities being nerfed really seems all over the place.

Yonin/Innin hardly make any sense for example, the extra damage from these abilities doesn't seem important enough that SE couldn't just decide between moving them to level 50 or giving at least a nerfed form of them to /NIN. Additionally Utsusemi: Ni already has that single shadow nerf, which isn't as important these days at 99 cap, especially since Ninja main has gear to increase the number of shadows. The crit rate would be the major thing, potentially making certain Empyrean weapon skills very consistently powerful by basically acting as a 200% TP Bonus, with it being especially useful for WAR. Going /NIN for shadows on a 2h job already gives up a large amount of damage compared to other choices and the crit rate boost could be more conservatively nerfed if necessary rather then just saying "no" to anyone who is /NIN. Since RDM basically has to sub /NIN to do damage with a Sword the Yonin/Innin nerf seems to target RDM in large part, and when the Utsusemi nerf is considered that seems to have been targeting RDM a lot too.

The Souleater nerf is also kinda odd. Dark Knight as a sub can do a bit of damage, but I have doubts that even with Souleater buffed it would be able to consistantly match /WAR or /SAM subs as choices. Dark Knight is also a magic user, meaning that DRK's Drain/Aspir/Absorb spells will already get a nerf then set as a sub except for with BLM/SCH/RDM, making the nerf hit Red Mage especially hard.

Shadowbind isn't the only thing nerfed for Ranger. Velocity Shot is also nerfed, which is kinda weird unless the target is COR/RNG, since it gives a nerf to melee attacks. The job ability is just completely removed rather then being slightly nerfed in favor of Ranger too, when SE could just increase the level the job ability is given by five and call it a day.

Thief is another job that is kinda odd, but I'd guess that the main reason SA/TA are nerfed on subs for higher levels (rather then giving a job trait to unnerf them for 90+ characters) is probably Dancer, maybe Blue Mage and some 2h jobs. The main thing that mystifies me is why Bully, which is only usable by main THF is nerfed for /THF in the party, especially since SA/TA is already nerfed so bad.

Convert barely makes /RDM competitive with /SCH for White Mages, but /RDM is already an important sub for Scholar regardless (and if I was arguing for Convert to be nerfed from /RDM, this would be my argument not some stupid contest about what /WHM gives). BLM/SMN also get good usage out of it, but removing Convert would probably make them switch to /SCH more consistently, at least whenever they didn't need Cure IV and Refresh at the same time.

Scholar is another that has some nerfed abilities, although that is usually forgotten with the skill boosts from Arts. Light Arts doesn't give Regen spells the slight boost that being a 49 SCH would for example. Additionally Accession and Manifestation have nerfed spell recast times for subjobs, which mostly impacts Red Mage.

There is roughly no reason why Afflatus Misery isn't available for /WHM, although this is because the job ability is pretty bad. You'd just be able to use Misery with Cura I and the Banish line of spells, and if there is a White Mage around you can get the incredibly nerfed accuracy bonus from Auspice. It would mostly make sense for PLD/WHM for Banish but Paladin again has many better subjob choices. Afflatus Solace would be favored if available. I'd say the main reason Afflatus Solace isn't sub usable has to do with Scholar's remaining exclusive weather spells and what would happen if Scholar could get light weather and Solace up at the same time. Not having either Solace or Aurorastorm mostly impacts Red Mage.

Basically, if I was in charge at SE we'd see a test server trial of unnerfed Yonin/Innin, Utsusemi: Ni, Souleater, Shadowbind, Velocity Shot, Bully, Sneak Attack, Trick Attack, Light Arts Regen boost, and Afflatus Misery. Maybe not all of these should be given unnerfed from sub jobs but I'd imagine most of them would have a shot of getting through depending on how broken they would be.

[arus2001]

I think the absence of NIN JAs when subbed is a bit more complicated than just spiting RDM. PLD/NIN getting the enmity boost from Yonin wouldn't hurt, nor would the NTE for sustain shadows, really. This combo may not be as common these days due to Ochain and Aegis now breaking caps, but at the time, this was definitely one of those things to help give NIN a nudge in tanking. Innin is far more obvious. Slap a 30% crit rate on everyone who attacks a mob from behind? Could see that giving /SAM a run for its money depending on some builds for two-handers, but it'd also outright soldify /NIN as a must for one-handers beyond what it already is. And if SE ever does get around to touching the enmity system, something like this being around could be even worse with the -enmity component on top. Anyone who bitches about having to stay behind a mob is also just being a lazy shit, too.

Speaking of /SAM, I'd like to see the -Fast Cast removed from Hasso/Seigan for all but Ninjutsu. Having to cancel those for putting up Dread Spikes or casting some other annoying (re)cast spell is just that, annoying. And just like with PLD/NIN, I see it there to spite SAM/NIN directly since they could ride Seigan/TE between shadows. Obviously this is targeted mainly at DRK/SAM, but for GS PLD or even in the freak case of a staff user going /SAM for trials or whatever, the option would be more appealing from a hybrid perspective.