Dev Tracker

[Mahoro]

When people started posting screenshots of themselves with GM mode and fillmode active and no one gave a fuck anymore? "Artifical advantages that cheapen the content", right? Otherwise you wouldnt need GM mode to save those seconds you're stuck not moving while doing JA's, or you wouldnt need fillmode to see that IG mob across 5 walls. lol

If you are trying to infer from my statements above that I think the design of Legion and Neo-Nyzul are somehow sufficient because I ALSO think the design of Abyssea has some flaws, not even Kant would take on that task.

[NynJa]

No, I was just pointing out the hypocrisy of "artificial advantages" when people use tools to make the game easier for them, but complain about how brews and cruor buffs and atma's ruined abyssea. No one is stopping anyone from going into abyssea and not using them, so they can display their skill and prowess...but guess what, no one gives a fuck about how anyone got their shiny pixels. No one gives a fuck that my Mandau was obtained in 2006, when dynamis was still a challenge, when lowman dynamis didnt really exist, when you were lucky to walk off with 300+ currency in a group of 36. No one gives a fuck if someones Armada Hauberk was uncursed in 2007, when the -1 was almost non existant and that their abju dropped off a 5am nid that they killed with 8 people. No ones going to give a fuck if you go 3box shinryu without cruor buffs or atma's or brew.

Remember this video?


RDM soloing azdaja without cruor buffs or atma's. Wow that was impressive when it was first posted, no one cares anymore....

[Mahoro]

That's fair enough. I was merely trying to point out the issue over design. A game being "too easy" is a recognizable criterion in any critical review of a game, and it is usually no saving grace to say "oh, well people can just play on Insane mode." Here is a Destructoid blog post with comments from the lead designer from Assassin's Creed III saying easy modes can "ruin" games:

http://www.destructoid.com/assassin-...s-234344.phtml

It's part of a well-worn debate. I don't necessarily agree with the dev. I think I lean more toward the view of the blogger who said it should be on a case-by-case basis.

People in this thread are trying to infer our psychological motivations for pointing this out (i.e., "people shouldn't have the same shinies as me!! WAAAHH"), but I am trying to divorce that from a more neutral argument. In my example from the previous page, many people would likely cry foul if SE suddenly announced a promotion for new/returning players where they can click the Magian Moogle for a new Relic, as opposed to farming months for currency. Genosync's statement above works both ways: yes, "games are entertainment; while yes, they do supply a challenge, if that challenge is overall too [easy] for a group of consumers, you've alienated part of your audience and you've lost money."

[NynJa]

Well if people have to resort to brews, then content in abyssea isnt exactly "too easy". The notion that gets thrown around is "thanks to brews, any gimp can solo orthrus, but they only kill one per brew, lol gimp". I'm sorry, I'm really really fucking sorry, but if someones going to spend 10 million cruor just for 50 orthrus kills, chances are theyre too stupid to know how to use their penis properly, and the rest of their gear will reflect their stupidity and you can just avoid them.



in other news: mondays patch is supposed to be the inclusion of neo-salv?

[Byrthnoth]

Monday's patch is Meebles and some minor changes. I hope you're all excited to download a patch for 2 hours so you can do a 15 minute event once a day!

[NynJa]

Monday's patch is Meebles and some minor changes. I hope you're all excited to download a patch for 2 hours so you can do a 15 minute event once a day!

http://gifr.org/wp-content/uploads/2.../Tableflip.gif

[ronin sparthos]

Look, I'm all for loot expediency but for an online game to allow the ability to become Superman and two shot mobs is shitty design if the purpose is to keep people playing the game and FFXI has suffered from Abyssea onward because of that decision. There is such a thing as something being too easy and that was the line that (Heroes) Abyssea crossed. 99 already trivialized most of the zones NMs with sheer levels and then on top of that you pile on cruor, brews and atmas, set low bars to be crossed (6-9 items for a +2 upgrade) and then left very little to do afterward. Trivializing content usually happens when an ocean's worth of content is released (like an expansion pack) and not in the middle of an already hobbled development cycle.

It was just terrible SE decisionmaking and led to the hurried response of 1500 HMPs and rarity of Rift-xxxx items to keep people at bay.

My point was that Abyssea's concept was sound and though some parts were clear overkill the idea of zoning in, maintaining time to stay in zone while killing NMs and gathering items for larger HNMs is better than many of the other events SE has 'revamped'. I hear people saying Abyssea was too easy but the number of bodies piled under Rani, Apademak and Pantokrator @90 say otherwise and the only reason half the base got past those mobs is because you could easily reach for an invincibility drink and vaporize things.

[Squah]

So this patch isn't the embrava nerfs?

[ronin sparthos]

Monday's patch is Meebles and some minor changes. I hope you're all excited to download a patch for 2 hours so you can do a 15 minute event once a day!

It's not an inferior Moblin Maze Mongers - we swear!

[ronin sparthos]

So this patch isn't the embrava nerfs?

No.

[Byrthnoth]

So this patch isn't the embrava nerfs?

Could be. We don't know. I would bet it is not, though. Of the things here, I think we're going to get Meebles, Collision Adjustment, and Kupower Adjustments. There may be some other unannounced nerfs, but we'll just have to wait and see what they are (Blinkers, Haks, Embrava, PD, who knows?)

PS. Slycer says the meebles are pretty non-PC in terms of their speech patterns. Think of a cross between Jim from Huckleberry Finn and Jar-Jar from Episode 1. Story-wise they're the slaves of goblins.

[ronin sparthos]

Maybe they'll surprise us with upping the merit cap to 5 instead of 3 weaponskills!

[Chamaan]

The inclusion of easily obtained Abyssea gear hasn't stopped shit players from being shit. Idiots are still too lazy and stupid to +2 their AF3, take their emps to 90, or do anything but spam Ukko's with a White GAxe proc in VW.

All I can imagine in my head is a bunch of people AFK botting in Empyreal Paradox waiting for Shinryu to pop claimed so they can maintain the scarcity of Twilight gear.

[ronin sparthos]

The inclusion of easily obtained Abyssea gear hasn't stopped shit players from being shit. Idiots are still too lazy and stupid to +2 their AF3, take their emps to 90, or do anything but spam Ukko's with a White GAxe proc in VW.

All I can imagine in my head is a bunch of people AFK botting in Empyreal Paradox waiting for Shinryu to pop claimed so they can maintain the scarcity of Twilight gear.

Or.... people wanted Shinryu to be what hes been in previous FF titles: A challenge like Omega/Ultima in PM 6-4.

And Shinryu was at 90 (as far as Abyssean challenges can be) until SE overkill on brews and let it boil down to hit blue, use brew or hit red, make it dead.

[Genosync]

Look, I'm all for loot expediency but for an online game to allow the ability to become Superman and two shot mobs is shitty design if the purpose is to keep people playing the game and FFXI has suffered from Abyssea onward because of that decision.

Yet how many people continued to play, and continued to make more Empyreans and stay subscribed? When did subscriptions start to decline again? If I have to explain this to you, and show you the Tanaka Map of the Barance, I've lost all hope.

There is such a thing as something being too easy and that was the line that (Heroes) Abyssea crossed. 99 already trivialized most of the zones NMs with sheer levels

Abyssea wasn't designed with Lv99 in mind; it was designed piece by piece as a progressive expansion pack. Also, you don't release content when a level cap is lv80, and at the same time design the content to be as difficult at lv90, because that would more than likely make the content too challenging at lv80 to begin with. This is why a lot of these mobs have gimmicks, and things you should or should not do while fighting them. Again, if I need to point out these mobs, I have lost all hope.

and then on top of that you pile on cruor, brews and atmas,

Abyssea was designed as a high speed, fast paced Battle area. Where the main focus was fighting. Go back and read the documents and releases that Square put out on it.

set low bars to be crossed (6-9 items for a +2 upgrade) and then left very little to do afterward.

There's "very little to do afterward"? And 6 to 9 items is low bar? It's not exactly the highest bar, no, but it does take legitimate effort to attempt to obtain. And note that during this time, tons of people came back to play and enjoyed playing because they did not have to spend thousands upon thousands of hours obtaining gear that was good enough for them to not be viewed as "gimp" or a lesser player, just for not having the insane amount of time to be able to devote towards the game. Average # of users logged in XI during Abyssea times, on the servers I've been on, are double what they're reported to me to be today.

Additionally, there's still plenty to do afterwards--look at all the other reusable content the game has and continues to put out (even if some of it sucks). Yes, it was the only thing out there for a while that was really seemingly worthwhile to do, but you could also continue to make Empyreans or other weapons and build up other jobs.

Trivializing content usually happens when an ocean's worth of content is released (like an expansion pack) and not in the middle of an already hobbled development cycle.

You previously stated that the atma, brews, and cruor trivialized this content, and that happened when the expansion was released. Keep in mind that these were actually considered "expansion packs" and in the end, were roughly equivalent to the amount of time-consuming content that SE provided us with in recent "expansion packs" (read: wotg). There were a lot of enemies created with unique mechanics and fights that operated differently than any others in the game.

It was just terrible SE decisionmaking and led to the hurried response of 1500 HMPs and rarity of Rift-xxxx items to keep people at bay.

This was the decision of Tanaka, and honestly the 1500 metal plate requirement caused a lot of people to quit. Empyrean weapons at this point take an equal amount of hours to complete to 90 that a Relic does to 95. Note, that if you take an LS to do your Empyrean, multiply the number of hours spent by each person that helps out. It turns out to, in most cases, be about the same. The 95 was a fucking massive slap in the face to people that had a precedent set of "with constant work, you will eventually get this and you will be guaranteed progress each time you go out and kill something". I could go on about how this was actually a terrible design choice for days, but all that's going to do is stir up more arguments, so anyway...

My point was that Abyssea's concept was sound and though some parts were clear overkill the idea of zoning in, maintaining time to stay in zone while killing NMs and gathering items for larger HNMs is better than many of the other events SE has 'revamped'. I hear people saying Abyssea was too easy but the number of bodies piled under Rani, Apademak and Pantokrator @90 say otherwise and the only reason half the base got past those mobs is because you could easily reach for an invincibility drink and vaporize things.

Why are you worried about the fact anyone other than yourself got past this content? Why does it even matter to you? Caring way too much about "oh look at me bro I'm the best" and what other people are able to do in a video game that you play too.

Look, I'm gonna just break this into little tiny bite-sized pieces for you this time since obviously you're not realizing the fact that this is a game and if you wanted it to be a real job or something that forced you have extreme or practiced skill you're obviously looking in the wrong place.

Games are, in the end, a medium for entertainment. While yes, we get enjoyment out of challenges and puzzles and things that take developed skill, the goal of industry is to make money, because without that, new products won't get funded or developed.

Stop fucking crying and play the game however you want to play it. It's your 13.95. The people you're whining about having Shinryu clear aren't affecting your enjoyment because they have a Shinryu clear, and if they are, you're a fucking pussy.

[Taint]

Maybe they'll surprise us with upping the merit cap to 5 instead of 3 weaponskills!

That would make this update pretty damn awesome.

[pchan]

No, I was just pointing out the hypocrisy of "artificial advantages" when people use tools to make the game easier for them, but complain about how brews and cruor buffs and atma's ruined abyssea. No one is stopping anyone from going into abyssea and not using them, so they can display their skill and prowess...but guess what, no one gives a fuck about how anyone got their shiny pixels. No one gives a fuck that my Mandau was obtained in 2006, when dynamis was still a challenge, when lowman dynamis didnt really exist, when you were lucky to walk off with 300+ currency in a group of 36. No one gives a fuck if someones Armada Hauberk was uncursed in 2007, when the -1 was almost non existant and that their abju dropped off a 5am nid that they killed with 8 people. No ones going to give a fuck if you go 3box shinryu without cruor buffs or atma's or brew.

Remember this video?

RDM soloing azdaja without cruor buffs or atma's. Wow that was impressive when it was first posted, no one cares anymore....

You are not getting the point, not really surprised. Brew became standard the moment it was released, so the point of killing without X or Y doesn't make sense. Whatever you say abyssea can be summed up to the following :

* get a pocket WHM.
* solo your AF3+2 with atma.
* brew your empyreal weapons.

There is nothing such as : strategy, teamwork or progressive difficulty. So this mob is annoying because it can wipe wipe you at anytime ? NP, you just have to brew it. The only thing that I found difficult when I came back with mdk was beating glavoid with no atma. But now that I think about, ask the average joe to brew it and you are done in 10 seconds.

Basically, abyssea is the same cockblock as salvage except that
* killing a salvage boss is replaced by killing a mob with the same difficulty as a wild rabbit.
* killing a NM with x% drop rate is replace by killing it 75 times.
* you duo everything with your pocket whm.

So getting 75 apademak horn was really fun ? really ?

[arus2001]

Can this "Abyssea killed FFXI" shit go back to the OF?

[ronin sparthos]

Spoiler: show

Yet how many people continued to play, and continued to make more Empyreans and stay subscribed? When did subscriptions start to decline again? If I have to explain this to you, and show you the Tanaka Map of the Barance, I've lost all hope.

Population has thinned out since Voidwatch, shouting a group together that isn't Qilin takes forever, Provenance is cool but again follows the same rules of Voidwatch but has limitations on entry and group content is either not really group content or Legion-style 'we're gonna fuck you if this thing isn't stunned' which basically means a static or your time is wasted entirely.

Abyssea wasn't designed with Lv99 in mind; it was designed piece by piece as a progressive expansion pack. Also, you don't release content when a level cap is lv80, and at the same time design the content to be as difficult at lv90, because that would more than likely make the content too challenging at lv80 to begin with. This is why a lot of these mobs have gimmicks, and things you should or should not do while fighting them. Again, if I need to point out these mobs, I have lost all hope.

Abyssea was designed with 90 in mind and even with that mindset the content became completely trivialized with brews, Razed Ruins, Minikin Monstrosity, Apocalypse and a whopping 3 atma slots on top of more potent cruor buffs at 90 cap Heroes zones. You had mobs like Glavoid, Carabosse, Pantokrator, Rani, Apademak that were challenging at their respective caps but the sheer amount of buffs and potency of some buffs severely damaged game synergy. SE knew that Abyssea was going to be easier with subsequent level cap increases and so the solution was to pile on more buffs at 90? Scars had already begun to tip things at 85 with Razed and Minikin.

Abyssea was designed as a high speed, fast paced Battle area. Where the main focus was fighting. Go back and read the documents and releases that Square put out on it.

What does this have to do with my thoughts on overkill? Scars buffs to melee hit/crit rate and mages sitting on infinite MP already saw to a "high speed, fast pace" compared to what XI had been before and so on top of that the plan was to make players invincible and unable to be downed? Pretty awesome plan... not.

There's "very little to do afterward"? And 6 to 9 items is low bar? It's not exactly the highest bar, no, but it does take legitimate effort to attempt to obtain. And note that during this time, tons of people came back to play and enjoyed playing because they did not have to spend thousands upon thousands of hours obtaining gear that was good enough for them to not be viewed as "gimp" or a lesser player, just for not having the insane amount of time to be able to devote towards the game. Average # of users logged in XI during Abyssea times, on the servers I've been on, are double what they're reported to me to be today.

The requirements for +2 items are ridiculously easy and that was fine because Abyssea was supposed to be about instant gratification and time vs reward ratios that shit all over the old style of grind. However, like I said before: There is very little to do afterwards other than build Emps or start new jobs. You can go from base gear to full +2s in month shouting at 90 and if you play more frequently the time becomes something like days instead of weeks.

That's great and all if there is other things to do in XI. But wait! SE completely gutted the game to make Abyssea work (we took the level cap past 75 for a reason) and other than looping back to get some items you couldn't get before you have very little to do in the way of progress.

You previously stated that the atma, brews, and cruor trivialized this content, and that happened when the expansion was released. Keep in mind that these were actually considered "expansion packs" and in the end, were roughly equivalent to the amount of time-consuming content that SE provided us with in recent "expansion packs" (read: wotg). There were a lot of enemies created with unique mechanics and fights that operated differently than any others in the game.

Trivializing the content at release is a bad idea when SE clearly had nothing to bridge the gap once Abyssea ended. They clearly spent alot of time trying to break down the barriers to entry that the old FFXI had, armed players with weaponskills and abilities that brought tears to the eyes of players, responded with swiftness to complaints that Abyssea generated, instituted the most buffs to job classes ever seen, designed pieces of gear with potent increases and salivated the appetite of everyone from the scrub to the elitist and then what?

I'm now toting my badass gear with my badass Empyrean weapon armed to the teeth at 99 and ready to pwn and then... everyone gets Voidwatched. An event that relies on hiding behind Fanatic/Fools Drinks for fear of being insta-gibbed and 18 man alliances where the only thing that matters is hitting those rapid procs.

It was just insane buildup for what amounted to confirmed suspicions that SE had no idea where to go in the post-Abyssea format. The refusal to even beef up the large scale PvE chambers that are the WOE or to address concerns like desire for 6man style content or something repeatable enough to be grab 'n go.

Why are you worried about the fact anyone other than yourself got past this content? Why does it even matter to you? Caring way too much about "oh look at me bro I'm the best" and what other people are able to do in a video game that you play too.

Why would I not be? An MMO is only as good as the population of people around you. When the game becomes a solo venture where the need for others is nothing more than a chore to gather up procs I should be concerned because it affects my bottom line. It has nothing to do with delusions of superiority and everything to do with "Port Jeuno is dead", "Oh look, another Abyssea shout" or "Oh, its Qilin again."

[ronin sparthos]

That would make this update pretty damn awesome.

Would be nice to have Ruinator and Stardiver back.

Both the JP and NA OF threads on this have generated hundreds of likes and such a change is trivial.