Official FINAL FANTASY XIV Forums Launch! (03/08/2011)

[blythe]

Giving feedback can be a good thing. My main issue, however, with the document is the tone. Always think about your target audience when writing these things. In this case, his target audience is a group of Japanese developers. The tone is wholly inappropriate, and actually distracts from the good points the author is trying to make. It would have a lot more weight with a tone of constructive criticism, rather than the various "fix this now" or "we need this now" statements littered throughout the document.

Very well said. Honestly, when I read the comments about it here I was expecting a professional-sounding list of issues that have been brought up by the community in the past months, and possible solutions. Something the team could actually reference while they're making changes. But it comes across as just another gamer's ramblings, IMO. Doesn't seem like anything SE would take more seriously than the average posts on their forums. It's just all the bitching collected in one place.

[Levin]

My least favorite guy is Abriael, he's super beyond annoying with his White Knighting. He's really pissing me off in like every thread I see him post in, defending every bad decision Tanaka made.

He does the same thing on twitter. Can't post anything in #FFXIV without him white knighting.

[Kurokikaze]

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...sic-FF-Classes

My post on using Advanced Classes (old FF names) as a spec for current classes. Lemme know if some parts sound whiny or if there are things that could be added that work with the concept.

I'll agree with you guys on that point Shuichi/Blythe.

That Abriael dude has a high post count and its all white knighting. Completely undermining the purpose of these forums.

[Corrderio]

Sorry for the slight derail, but who is this Doctor Mog guy? I would search but I'm scared of wandering back into the cesspool of that site.

[Correction]

Are there any 'bg versus official forums' flamewars yet on the SE boards? :D

I look forward to the 'dumb shit people post on the official forums' media thread.

[Kurokikaze]

I was thinking of opening that in standard. Giving it enough time to get a nice amount so stupidity in there.

Doctor Mog is some ZAM white knight ya?

[Selamis]

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...sic-FF-Classes

My post on using Advanced Classes (old FF names) as a spec for current classes. Lemme know if some parts sound whiny or if there are things that could be added that work with the concept.

I'll agree with you guys on that point Shuichi/Blythe.

That Abriael dude has a high post count and its all white knighting. Completely undermining the purpose of these forums.

Looks pretty good to me.

[Shuichi]

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...sic-FF-Classes

My post on using Advanced Classes (old FF names) as a spec for current classes. Lemme know if some parts sound whiny or if there are things that could be added that work with the concept.

I'll agree with you guys on that point Shuichi/Blythe.

That Abriael dude has a high post count and its all white knighting. Completely undermining the purpose of these forums.

I read this post and found it to be solid. You effectively provided constructive criticism without coming across as someone complaining for the sake of complaining.

Minor quibble: "FFXIV under Tanaka: Reinvent the wheel, end up with a square and wonder why it won’t roll". Probably could have left that out, but it's minor at most. Other than that, this is how feedback should be done I feel.

One thing I noticed was this:
"Conjurer -> Black Mage (damage) / Conjurer (healer)". Did you mean for Conjurer to diverge into either Black Mage or White Mage?

On the subject matter presented in the post, the idea of class specialization is a good idea and would create goals for players. You start out a base class and as you level up, you further define who you are and what role you want to play. Your character "grows up" so-to-speak. So effectively, they retain the armory system (which is actually a good idea) and address the problem of lack of identity. I wouldn't be surprised if this is the route the dev team opts for.

Now for a question. Suppose I level Pugilist to the point of class specialization, follow the path of Monk, and take that class to 50. When I decide to also level up the class of Ninja, how would that be handled? When I put on a pair of katana or kunai will my level go back down to R25(30)?

[Kurokikaze]

One thing I noticed was this:
"Conjurer -> Black Mage (damage) / Conjurer (healer)". Did you mean for Conjurer to diverge into either Black Mage or White Mage?

On the subject matter presented in the post, the idea of class specialization is a good idea and would create goals for players. You start out a base class and as you level up, you further define who you are and what role you want to play. Your character "grows up" so-to-speak. So effectively, they retain the armory system (which is actually a good idea) and address the problem of lack of identity. I wouldn't be surprised if this is the route the dev team opts for.

Now for a question. Suppose I level Pugilist to the point of class specialization, follow the path of Monk, and take that class to 50. When I decide to also level up the class of Ninja, how would that be handled? When I put on a pair of katana or kunai will my level go back down to R25(30)?

Oh brain fart, yeah I meant White Mage. Lemme fix that lol.

For the Pugilist example (assuming you did the Ninja class) you would take off all your talent points and put them into Ninja (trait that allows usage of kunais). You're still whatever level PUG you were before.

Let's say your PUG was 50. When you remove all your points your stats go down to what they would be for 50 base PUG and your MNK traits/abilities will be unequipped. You then put those points into NIN and you can then play a 50 NIN. It sounds weird if you're coming from FFXI only but this is standard fair for anyone thats played another MMO, namely WoW.

Edit: Sorry for broken up reply, was on the phone.

[solracht]

Any games with specializations (which I love, let me make that clear) have clearly defined classes at the beginning with their own identity. Specializations are used to make that identity more specific.

That's not the case in FFXIV at all. The problem is your end goal (FF jobs) is split amongst many classes. Most FF jobs are not confined within any specific class, their skills are instead split amongst the different classes we have.

Making a paladin specialize into sword/shield/holy magic or making a red mage specialize into enspells/nuking/healing would work for me. Here we are making our already defined jobs specify their identity even more.

I'd warmly welcome a specialization system once we have the jobs, I just haven't particularly liked any suggestions about specializing to reach them, because most of them (including yours) would require reestructuring or redefining the armory system and our current classes first. If we're going to do that, why are we taking the long road to reach FF jobs? Convert the current classes into them directly, splitting and making as many new ones as is needed, let people transfer exp/skill points from their lost classes to whatever they see fit as long as they are related, and then add talent specs to each FF job (see the example above). All sides would win.

[Corrderio]

You just got a dev tag, nice work.

Pretty good ideas, although I'm not sure if I want to be locked out of one path if I take the other.

[Kenshiin]

I enjoyed you post Kuro and I think it would work just fine. I'm still hoping it turns out to be something more like FFXI where I can level any job I want without limitations.

[Kurokikaze]

As I said on the other forums:

I never said you would be locked out. I said you could reset your points and put them into the other path assuming that you finished the initial quest. This is about making people flexible by giving viable choices not limiting them to one path completely. lol

would require reestructuring or redefining the armory system and our current classes first

I don't see a way around that one. It's gonna have to happen regardless, spec or not. Armory System aint there yet.

Saw this posted and my heart skipped a beat:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...censeBoard.png

[Corrderio]

Not too bad, but I need to admit I hated the license board in XII.

[solracht]

I don't see a way around that one. It's gonna have to happen regardless, spec or not. Armory System aint there yet.

See the rest of the post. I know there's no way around that one, but why are we half-assing it like this since the changes do have to happen? If we're completely reestructuring the system, why are doing it to end up with bland classes (and then putting talent trees on them) instead of ending up with FF jobs (and we could still put talent specs on those anyways)?

Let's play with examples here. For your system to work, archer needs to stop being archer in order to allow guns too, followed by giving/taking some skills from them. Instead of leaving it as gun-bow-user and giving them ranger/corsair/musketeer trees, why don't we directly convert it into Ranger and then give ranger talent specs?

[Shuichi]

I enjoyed you post Kuro and I think it would work just fine. I'm still hoping it turns out to be something more like FFXI where I can level any job I want without limitations.

With this idea you can indeed level any class you would like. Say, for instance, you level up CON spec into BLM then decide you would like to level PLD. You would then start out by equipping a GLD weapon (going back to R1) reaching the point of divergence, complete the PLD quest, and then proceed down that path. So, if you so choose, you can actually level all the classes if you would like to, provided you have completed the quest to unlock that class.

If I'm understanding this concept correctly, you would not be locked out of any role at all. You may have to go back to R1 if your new class is not a part of your already leveled spec, but that's about it.

[Kurokikaze]

See the rest of the post. I know there's no way around that one, but why are we half-assing it like this since the changes do have to happen? If we're completely reestructuring the system, why are doing it to end up with bland classes (and then putting talent trees on them) instead of ending up with FF jobs (and we could still put talent specs on those anyways)?

The point is to evolve the current classes into the FF ones. Once you put that first point into MNK, you're now a MNK and have to spend a minimum number of points in that tree before you can branch out into the other ones. If you look at it in the sense that a base class with no points spent is bland - then I have no argument. You're absolutely right. But thats not stopping WoW or any other games out there.

If I take all my points out of Marksmanship Hunter, I'm just a Hunter that isn't really as good as any other Hunter with a spec in Beastmaster, Marksmanship, or Survival. You're not supposed to play the class untalented is what I'm trying to say. Depending on what you want to do with that class (tank, dd or heal) talent the base into something more fitting to what you want to do; that just happens to fall in line with an FF class. This is nothing new - all I did was changed names around and formulated a way that it could be introduced into the game.

Any games with specializations (which I love, let me make that clear) have clearly defined classes at the beginning with their own identity. Specializations are used to make that identity more specific.

I'm going to use WoW again and say thats not true. Talent points become available at Lv10 (which you don't really need to spend to keep grinding - just makes it easier) and from then on you can decide if you want to do Retribution (dps), Protection (tank), or Holy (healing) for Paladin. I just made the initial level higher in this proposal - it could be lower, thats perfectly viable but I was leaving wiggle room for people that like the Armory System and using other skills. Theres no initial class definition for that Paladin until he/she starts spending points.

Edit: That is correct Shuichi.

[The Q]

Sorry for the slight derail, but who is this Doctor Mog guy? I would search but I'm scared of wandering back into the cesspool of that site.

Doctor Mog, on ZAM, was a smug-shit white knight who got a following of dick riders that made his ego go through the roof. His main argument always boiled down to "It's not the game that's bad, it's you." and there was zero arguing with him because anyone who didn't ditto his sentiments were beneath him. One of his major "movements" was the XP system and how it was perfectly fine and WE were the ones who were wrong because we thought grinding coblyns was bad. At one point he got called out on his shit and made a thread that was every bit a big baby shit fit temper tantrum about how because everyone was turning against him and that they thought the game sucked that it would never get better because anyone who said anything negative were the problem, not the game.

He is either the best god-damn troll I've ever seen in 15 years online or he is the most legitimately agitating person I have ever encountered.

Here is a snippet I found of him on the official forum. Prepare rage.

Spoiler: show

Please keep: Surplus, repairs, stat point allocation and job flexibility!

I am in the opposite opinion on a few topics and I would like to explain why;

First, Surplus. The intent of surplus is to prevent players from leveling 1 job to max level and ignoring the content of all the other classes. By penalizing players who either grind too long on 1 class (or bot) they "entice" you to hop on another class and level it alongside your other classes and in the same light allow "casuals" to keep up.

Please keep the surplus, its annoying to players like me who play too much, but it keeps casuals in the game and makes people play other classes.

Second, crafter repairs and repair NPC. Thank you for making crafting classes more than just a "sidequest" to leveling a battle class. The amount of depth in the current system is wonderful. The mechanic of breaking weapons isn't new, nor is NPC repairing the items.

Fixing gear by employing a "crafter" is wonderful and just because people are too busy powerhousing 1 job to 50 to realize they could have been more effective and leveld a craft or asked one in their ls, doesn't mean you should do away with it. Reduce the prices of NPC repairs maybe, but don't remove repairs or take away features that make crafting robust like battle classes.

Third, Stat point allocation. I LOVE this system and I am VERY attached to being able to spec myself however I want. On several occasions I did something fun an out of the ordinary (like tanking The Great Buffalo on Conjurer) and LOVED the challenge it provided. Sure, I COULD have been on Gladiator and done it with ease, but whats the point? I leveled both classes so that I could use all my skills and points however I wanted and I don't think that should be taken away. Being able to backup heal on my Archer if s#!t hits the fan, or being able to tank on my Lancer when the tank isn't around is AWESOME. Now, I know I can't do it as EFFECTIVE as the classes that are intended to do them, but the fact that I CAN is why I love it.

Keep stat point allocation so that us players who want to be a flexible and well rounded character aren't pigeon holed into "defined classes" Make the classes defined in their own right and let the players step outside that box themselves with their own setups.

And finally, this leads to Job Flexibility. Keep the system where jobs can use other abilities at a reduced accuracy, damage, effectiveness etc... Make it so that the classes on their own have a "unique" feel, but DON'T take away the fact that I can have a ton of MP on my GLD to cure 3 myself when healers aren't present.

Whew, thanks for reading, I know its not what a lot of people want to hear, but I feel strongly and wanted to share.

Thanks!

Doctor Mog

A couple more if you can handle:

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ull=1#post4873
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ull=1#post4996

I'm not even going to bother posting at that place. It's just as I knew it would be: White Knight loudmouths trying to drown out everyone else and become the "voice" of the community.

[solracht]

I never implied that the untalented class should work by itself, and I know that the point is to evolve the current classes into FF ones. I'm just saying that with the readjusting required, we could simply move to FF classes right away. We don't have to keep on arguing about this or we can take it to PMs if you wish.

Either way, if you really want to win people over from the advanced classes club, you could suggest that in order to unlock the Paladin specialization, during the quest you'd be asked to showoff Conjurer skills up to rank 20 or something (something more or less meaningless) as a Gladiator. Redo that example for any FF class you want. From what I've noticed, people who want advanced classes seem more interested in the "form the job by leveling the fitting classes" aspect, which doesn't have to conflict with talent specs.

I'm going to use WoW again and say thats not true. Talent points become available at Lv10 (which you don't really need to spend to keep grinding - just makes it easier) and from then on you can decide if you want to do Retribution (dps), Protection (tank), or Holy (healing) for Paladin. I just made the initial level higher in this proposal - it could be lower, thats perfectly viable but I was leaving wiggle room for people that like the Armory System and using other skills. Theres no initial class definition for that Paladin until he/she starts spending points.

In WoW, a paladin is a holy warrior. Paladins in Warcraft have their identity and lore. You know what a Warcraft paladin is. You can then specialize into tanking, damage, or healing. That's what I was trying to say. I can't say the same about gladiator, because it's nothing more than a person who chose to equip a one handed blade. If classes had been defined around the guilds, instead of you joining the guilds simply because you happen to use the right weapon, it'd be a different story.

[Kurokikaze]

I never implied that the untalented class should work by itself, and I know that the point is to evolve the current classes into FF ones. I'm just saying that with the readjusting required, we could simply move to FF classes right away. We don't have to keep on arguing about this or we can take it to PMs if you wish.

Either way, if you really want to win people over from the advanced classes club, you could suggest that in order to unlock the Paladin specialization, during the quest you'd be asked to showoff Conjurer skills up to rank 20 or something (something more or less meaningless) as a Gladiator. Redo that example for any FF class you want. From what I've noticed, people who want advanced classes seem more interested in the "form the job by leveling the fitting classes" aspect, which doesn't have to conflict with talent specs.




In WoW, a paladin is a holy warrior. Paladins in Warcraft have their identity and lore. You know what a Warcraft paladin is. You can then specialize into tanking, damage, or healing. That's what I was trying to say. I can't say the same about gladiator, because it's nothing more than a person who chose to equip a one handed blade. If classes had been defined around the guilds, instead of you joining the guilds simply because you happen to use the right weapon, it'd be a different story.

Ah I see.. I just didnt feel that moving to FF classes right away was the right thing to do. My approach was do as much as you can while fixing what doesn't work. Introducing new classes takes away from the current ones and doesn't fix them.

That is the Tactics version and would actually be pretty interesting but to the casual player - a lot more grinding than is necessary to play what they want. No?

Ok then, thats a problem with the lore which from what we've seen is a work in progress, like the rest of the game. In these initial quests I would like for SE to come up with a story as to why the Gladiator picked up the sword and shield and decided to be a Paladin and these quests could be a series of quests throughout ranks that eventually lead to AF.

@ TheQ I'm not reading those other posts. I'm already infuriated. lol