Japan hit by powerful earthquake

[Tagus]

Also, I'd like to add in case you missed it, the word "meter" was used in the title. I found that to be particularly rewarding.

[Salodin]

Also, I'd like to add in case you missed it, the word "meter" was used in the title. I found that to be particularly rewarding.

I lol'd.

[Kryssan]

I'm not sure how you can honestly say that there is nothing disturbing about the idea of children being given radiation detectors. Their parents want them to have radiation detectors, for their safety. How the fuck is that not disturbing? Thanks for reminding me so quickly why I stopped conversing with you.

Too indifferent to such things nowadays. Maybe if it had happened in the past, y'know, back when human beings could think for themselves.

Also, I'd like to add in case you missed it, the word "meter" was used in the title. I found that to be particularly rewarding.

And yet the news also uses the term 'radiation leak' like it is going out of style. The news media using a word does not make it correct or right, and the fact that you have to take solace in such a small inconsequential thing shows why I shouldn't reply to you. I stand by my words in the LHC thread, whereas you'll just hide behind the fact that you haven't taken the time to research anything because your work hours inhibit you and continue thinking that someone cares.

[Psion]

I see Kryssan is as busy as ever posting useful information and pwning the trolls. /cheer

And I also don't see anything disturbing about the idea of children being given radiation detectors. Mother Nature woke up on the wrong side of the bed, so parents give kids something that might help protect them. Are you afraid the kids are gonna be scared or something? Come on, don't you think a kid's gonna be a bit more terrified if they happen to get radiation poisoning (yea right, I seriously doubt there's any radiation nearby that's strong enough to do that) and start suffering illness from it? Better the kids stay physically healthy and safe, and let them decide if they should be terrified or not.

Chances are, kids, like all kids, think they're invincible and won't be terrified because they got a doohickey from mommy and daddy for their safety. And Kryssan, surprise surprise, is also right that the media using a word doesn't mean it's correct. One case in point: Gay marriage, as if gays want their own special name for it. It's not gay marriage that the gays want, its marriage rights for gays, they just want marriage. Almost never do you see it written that way though.

[bechyni]

Psion is riding kinda hard

Spoiler: show

http://morethanastance.com/wp-conten...riding-blk.jpg

[Tagus]

I see Kryssan is as busy as ever posting useful information and pwning the trolls. /cheer

And I also don't see anything disturbing about the idea of children being given radiation detectors. Mother Nature woke up on the wrong side of the bed, so parents give kids something that might help protect them. Are you afraid the kids are gonna be scared or something? Come on, don't you think a kid's gonna be a bit more terrified if they happen to get radiation poisoning (yea right, I seriously doubt there's any radiation nearby that's strong enough to do that) and start suffering illness from it? Better the kids stay physically healthy and safe, and let them decide if they should be terrified or not.

Yeah, yeah. Aren't you the guy who was trolling people for comparing this to Chernobyl when it happened? Let's talk about how this thread has gone. People compared it to chernobyl, and got called stupid. They raised the rank to 7 to match Chernobyl, and the ranking system was called flawed because it was only a partial meltdown at that time... since having been determined to be a full meltdown. Now they're talking about entombing the reactors in the exact same way the chernobyl incident was dealt with, and that solution is being called a cop-out. I'm being called dumb for using a word that cryssan hasn't heard of. CNN is now being called dumb for using the same word. Children are being given radioactive survey devices for their safety, but that's being called dumb and unnecessary. Did I forget anything? You need to look a little more into who the trolls are.

[Takedown3]

i wouldn't say giving them rad meters is dumb and unnecessary but it certainly is scary and unnerving.

for them, there, not me, here, since i could give a fuck less COMMA COMMA aint no muh fuckin earthquacks up in canadia

[Salodin]

Yeah, yeah. Aren't you the guy who was trolling people for comparing this to Chernobyl when it happened? Let's talk about how this thread has gone. People compared it to chernobyl, and got called stupid. They raised the rank to 7 to match Chernobyl, and the ranking system was called flawed because it was only a partial meltdown at that time... since having been determined to be a full meltdown. Now they're talking about entombing the reactors in the exact same way the chernobyl incident was dealt with, and that solution is being called a cop-out. I'm being called dumb for using a word that cryssan hasn't heard of. CNN is now being called dumb for using the same word. Children are being given radioactive survey devices for their safety, but that's being called dumb and unnecessary. Did I forget anything? You need to look a little more into who the trolls are.

I don't like arguing in this thread, but this right here sums up my feelings on everything lol.

[aduidarnenye]

I don't disagree that children, or anyone of any age really, carrying around radiation doodad-gizmo-whatchamacallits is not a scary proposition. It doesn't really fall into the category of 'fucked up' as I see that category, which tends to be 'things that are immoral, unethical, or creepily disturbing'. The radiation doodad-gizmo-whatchamacallits being given out to people just seems practical to me.

Did you know that doodad, gizmo, and whatchamacallit are not hit with a spell check correction on Firefox? Fascinating.

[Tagus]

whatchamacallit

I'm sorry, but "whatchamacallit" is not a word. Your argument is therefore invalid.

[Kaylia]

I'm not sure how you can honestly say that there is nothing disturbing about the idea of children being given radiation detectors. Their parents want them to have radiation detectors, for their safety. How the fuck is that not disturbing? Thanks for reminding me so quickly why I stopped conversing with you.

I find it more disturbing that I have to tell my children to not accept candies from stranger because there is bad person out there.

There is nothing scary or disturbing about radiations detectors. It's a good opportunity to teach your kids about works safety and sciences, and to calm them down if the recent event traumatized them.


It would be disturbing if these detector were given because there was actually radiations outside, and they had to stay away from it.

[archibaldcrane]

Yeah, yeah. Aren't you the guy who was trolling people for comparing this to Chernobyl when it happened? Let's talk about how this thread has gone. People compared it to chernobyl, and got called stupid. They raised the rank to 7 to match Chernobyl, and the ranking system was called flawed because it was only a partial meltdown at that time... since having been determined to be a full meltdown. Now they're talking about entombing the reactors in the exact same way the chernobyl incident was dealt with, and that solution is being called a cop-out. I'm being called dumb for using a word that cryssan hasn't heard of. CNN is now being called dumb for using the same word. Children are being given radioactive survey devices for their safety, but that's being called dumb and unnecessary. Did I forget anything? You need to look a little more into who the trolls are.

This still shouldnt be compared to Chernobyl.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S 4G using Tapatalk

[Tagus]

It would be disturbing if these detector were given because there was actually radiations outside, and they had to stay away from it.

That is the reason they were given. Due to the unquantifiable nature of the situation, they don't know to what extent the surrounding population is being exposed to radiation. I honestly can't predict what they're looking for, because I don't know exactly what type of equipment they're handing out. If it's meters used to detect radiation, they're concerned with finding specific sources and doing something about them... if it's personal dosimeters that measure the dose a person receives, which are generally worn as rings or clip to a shirt collar(which is what I'm guessing it must be, given the 3 month time frame and the massive expense of handing out 34,000 meters to children vs. the cheaper dosimeters), then they are looking for proof that the children are being exposed to radiation so that they can narrow down where their efforts at cleaning and containment should be focused.

It's scary because the half-life of I-131 is short enough that if they are still being exposed, the site is still venting radioactive Iodine... or, it's a longer life isotope which is potentially much worse. At any rate, in three months it will be interesting once again to see the results.

[Tagus]

I also just thought about the fact that three months of a dosimeter would account for approximately 10 half-lifes of I-131, which is the generally accepted number of half-lives an isotope must go through before it becomes relatively harmless. Does it honestly seem like they would coincidentally plan for the dosimeters to be worn for three months and then returned and measured just to make some parents feel better? More likely, the assuage of fear is a coincidental benefit to what their goal must be, which is to find sources of radiation that are hitting the population. I stand by my statement that it is fucked up shit.

[Tagus]

Here's an interesting article on Al Jazeera... it's a decent read and illustrates some thought-provoking possibilities, perhaps better than I have.




Fukushima: It's much worse than you think

Scientific experts believe Japan's nuclear disaster to be far worse than governments are revealing to the public.


"Fukushima is the biggest industrial catastrophe in the history of mankind," Arnold Gundersen, a former nuclear industry senior vice president, told Al Jazeera.

Japan's 9.0 earthquake on March 11 caused a massive tsunami that crippled the cooling systems at the Tokyo Electric Power Company's (TEPCO) nuclear plant in Fukushima, Japan. It also led to hydrogen explosions and reactor meltdowns that forced evacuations of those living within a 20km radius of the plant.

Gundersen, a licensed reactor operator with 39 years of nuclear power engineering experience, managing and coordinating projects at 70 nuclear power plants around the US, says the Fukushima nuclear plant likely has more exposed reactor cores than commonly believed.

"Fukushima has three nuclear reactors exposed and four fuel cores exposed," he said, "You probably have the equivalent of 20 nuclear reactor cores because of the fuel cores, and they are all in desperate need of being cooled, and there is no means to cool them effectively."

TEPCO has been spraying water on several of the reactors and fuel cores, but this has led to even greater problems, such as radiation being emitted into the air in steam and evaporated sea water - as well as generating hundreds of thousands of tons of highly radioactive sea water that has to be disposed of.

"The problem is how to keep it cool," says Gundersen. "They are pouring in water and the question is what are they going to do with the waste that comes out of that system, because it is going to contain plutonium and uranium. Where do you put the water?"

Even though the plant is now shut down, fission products such as uranium continue to generate heat, and therefore require cooling.

"The fuels are now a molten blob at the bottom of the reactor," Gundersen added. "TEPCO announced they had a melt through. A melt down is when the fuel collapses to the bottom of the reactor, and a melt through means it has melted through some layers. That blob is incredibly radioactive, and now you have water on top of it. The water picks up enormous amounts of radiation, so you add more water and you are generating hundreds of thousands of tons of highly radioactive water."

Independent scientists have been monitoring the locations of radioactive "hot spots" around Japan, and their findings are disconcerting.

"We have 20 nuclear cores exposed, the fuel pools have several cores each, that is 20 times the potential to be released than Chernobyl," said Gundersen. "The data I'm seeing shows that we are finding hot spots further away than we had from Chernobyl, and the amount of radiation in many of them was the amount that caused areas to be declared no-man's-land for Chernobyl. We are seeing square kilometres being found 60 to 70 kilometres away from the reactor. You can't clean all this up. We still have radioactive wild boar in Germany, 30 years after Chernobyl."

Radiation monitors for children

Japan's Nuclear Emergency Response Headquarters finally admitted earlier this month that reactors 1, 2, and 3 at the Fukushima plant experienced full meltdowns.

TEPCO announced that the accident probably released more radioactive material into the environment than Chernobyl, making it the worst nuclear accident on record.

Meanwhile, a nuclear waste advisor to the Japanese government reported that about 966 square kilometres near the power station - an area roughly 17 times the size of Manhattan - is now likely uninhabitable.

In the US, physician Janette Sherman MD and epidemiologist Joseph Mangano published an essay shedding light on a 35 per cent spike in infant mortality in northwest cities that occurred after the Fukushima meltdown, and may well be the result of fallout from the stricken nuclear plant.

The eight cities included in the report are San Jose, Berkeley, San Francisco, Sacramento, Santa Cruz, Portland, Seattle, and Boise, and the time frame of the report included the ten weeks immediately following the disaster.

"There is and should be concern about younger people being exposed, and the Japanese government will be giving out radiation monitors to children," Dr MV Ramana, a physicist with the Programme on Science and Global Security at Princeton University who specialises in issues of nuclear safety, told Al Jazeera.

Dr Ramana explained that he believes the primary radiation threat continues to be mostly for residents living within 50km of the plant, but added: "There are going to be areas outside of the Japanese government's 20km mandatory evacuation zone where radiation is higher. So that could mean evacuation zones in those areas as well."

Gundersen points out that far more radiation has been released than has been reported.

"They recalculated the amount of radiation released, but the news is really not talking about this," he said. "The new calculations show that within the first week of the accident, they released 2.3 times as much radiation as they thought they released in the first 80 days."

According to Gundersen, the exposed reactors and fuel cores are continuing to release microns of caesium, strontium, and plutonium isotopes. These are referred to as "hot particles".

"We are discovering hot particles everywhere in Japan, even in Tokyo," he said. "Scientists are finding these everywhere. Over the last 90 days these hot particles have continued to fall and are being deposited in high concentrations. A lot of people are picking these up in car engine air filters."

Radioactive air filters from cars in Fukushima prefecture and Tokyo are now common, and Gundersen says his sources are finding radioactive air filters in the greater Seattle area of the US as well.

The hot particles on them can eventually lead to cancer.

"These get stuck in your lungs or GI tract, and they are a constant irritant," he explained, "One cigarette doesn't get you, but over time they do. These [hot particles] can cause cancer, but you can't measure them with a Geiger counter. Clearly people in Fukushima prefecture have breathed in a large amount of these particles. Clearly the upper West Coast of the US has people being affected. That area got hit pretty heavy in April."

Blame the US?

In reaction to the Fukushima catastrophe, Germany is phasing out all of its nuclear reactors over the next decade. In a referendum vote this Monday, 95 per cent of Italians voted in favour of blocking a nuclear power revival in their country. A recent newspaper poll in Japan shows nearly three-quarters of respondents favour a phase-out of nuclear power in Japan.

Why have alarms not been sounded about radiation exposure in the US?

Nuclear operator Exelon Corporation has been among Barack Obama's biggest campaign donors, and is one of the largest employers in Illinois where Obama was senator. Exelon has donated more than $269,000 to his political campaigns, thus far. Obama also appointed Exelon CEO John Rowe to his Blue Ribbon Commission on America's Nuclear Future.

Dr Shoji Sawada is a theoretical particle physicist and Professor Emeritus at Nagoya University in Japan.
He is concerned about the types of nuclear plants in his country, and the fact that most of them are of US design.

"Most of the reactors in Japan were designed by US companies who did not care for the effects of earthquakes," Dr Sawada told Al Jazeera. "I think this problem applies to all nuclear power stations across Japan."

Using nuclear power to produce electricity in Japan is a product of the nuclear policy of the US, something Dr Sawada feels is also a large component of the problem.

"Most of the Japanese scientists at that time, the mid-1950s, considered that the technology of nuclear energy was under development or not established enough, and that it was too early to be put to practical use," he explained. "The Japan Scientists Council recommended the Japanese government not use this technology yet, but the government accepted to use enriched uranium to fuel nuclear power stations, and was thus subjected to US government policy."

As a 13-year-old, Dr Sawada experienced the US nuclear attack against Japan from his home, situated just 1400 metres from the hypocentre of the Hiroshima bomb.

"I think the Fukushima accident has caused the Japanese people to abandon the myth that nuclear power stations are safe," he said. "Now the opinions of the Japanese people have rapidly changed. Well beyond half the population believes Japan should move towards natural electricity."

A problem of infinite proportions

Dr Ramana expects the plant reactors and fuel cores to be cooled enough for a shutdown within two years.
"But it is going to take a very long time before the fuel can be removed from the reactor," he added. "Dealing with the cracking and compromised structure and dealing with radiation in the area will take several years, there's no question about that."

Dr Sawada is not as clear about how long a cold shutdown could take, and said the problem will be "the effects from caesium-137 that remains in the soil and the polluted water around the power station and underground. It will take a year, or more time, to deal with this".

Gundersen pointed out that the units are still leaking radiation.

"They are still emitting radioactive gases and an enormous amount of radioactive liquid," he said. "It will be at least a year before it stops boiling, and until it stops boiling, it's going to be cranking out radioactive steam and liquids."

Gundersen worries about more earthquake aftershocks, as well as how to cool two of the units.

"Unit four is the most dangerous, it could topple," he said. "After the earthquake in Sumatra there was an 8.6 [aftershock] about 90 days later, so we are not out of the woods yet. And you're at a point where, if that happens, there is no science for this, no one has ever imagined having hot nuclear fuel lying outside the fuel pool. They've not figured out how to cool units three and four."

Gundersen's assessment of solving this crisis is grim.

"Units one through three have nuclear waste on the floor, the melted core, that has plutonium in it, and that has to be removed from the environment for hundreds of thousands of years," he said. "Somehow, robotically, they will have to go in there and manage to put it in a container and store it for infinity, and that technology doesn't exist. Nobody knows how to pick up the molten core from the floor, there is no solution available now for picking that up from the floor."

Dr Sawada says that the creation of nuclear fission generates radioactive materials for which there is simply no knowledge informing us how to dispose of the radioactive waste safely.

"Until we know how to safely dispose of the radioactive materials generated by nuclear plants, we should postpone these activities so as not to cause further harm to future generations," he explained. "To do otherwise is simply an immoral act, and that is my belief, both as a scientist and as a survivor of the Hiroshima atomic bombing."

Gundersen believes it will take experts at least ten years to design and implement the plan.

"So ten to 15 years from now maybe we can say the reactors have been dismantled, and in the meantime you wind up contaminating the water," Gundersen said. "We are already seeing Strontium [at] 250 times the allowable limits in the water table at Fukushima. Contaminated water tables are incredibly difficult to clean. So I think we will have a contaminated aquifer in the area of the Fukushima site for a long, long time to come."

Unfortunately, the history of nuclear disasters appears to back Gundersen's assessment.

"With Three Mile Island and Chernobyl, and now with Fukushima, you can pinpoint the exact day and time they started," he said, "But they never end."

Follow Dahr Jamail on Twitter: @DahrJamail

[Kryssan]

Yeah, yeah. Aren't you the guy who was trolling people for comparing this to Chernobyl when it happened? Let's talk about how this thread has gone. People compared it to chernobyl, and got called stupid.

Because it isn't like Chernobyl-4? Except that it is a reactor meltdown situation with a contaminate release? Lets just go ahead and lump TMI-2, NRX, SL-1, HTRE-3, and whatever that other core was they blew up into that too, cause they all did the same thing.

While Dai-ichi has released a lot more than any of my other examples, it has also released a lot less than Chernobyl-4. And nowhere near as explosively or with as many nasty/dirty nuclides as Chernobyl did.

They raised the rank to 7 to match Chernobyl, and the ranking system was called flawed because it was only a partial meltdown at that time... since having been determined to be a full meltdown.

Um, the ranking system was never called flawed. The interpretations people have of it might be, but I didn't ever say the system was. There are three criterions, only one of which is rated a 7 and it isn't any surprise at this point why that would be. The most important one still has no rating, and the other rating is a 5 at its highest.

Additionally, I'm not really sure what to say to the partial/full meltdown bit. It is true that TEPCO came out in a release and stated such, however estimates for damage inside the cores still remains less than. I'd say the extent of the meltdown is still one of those things that should remain open until they can get into the torus/vessel with robots at least. We might get more information after this upcoming conference.

Now they're talking about entombing the reactors in the exact same way the chernobyl incident was dealt with, and that solution is being called a cop-out.

Reading comprehension, much? Now you're just going for sensationalism yourself.

What I specifically stated was: "The use of covers for the plants isn't something new - though I suppose currently it probably seems like a cop out." This in turn due to the public opinion of the containment building.

Right now, they're just trying to essentially patch the holes with the quickest solution available to minimize further contamination spreads and people remember that the hastily constructed sarcophagus for Chernobyl-4 is now in need of replacement; not to mention the failures of the containment in other recent areas like the Gulf oil spill. So yes, public opinion is 'cop out'.

I never actually said that it was one. Nor did I intend to infer that it is one. My understanding to the buildings they are now constructing is that they are temporary enclosures that will later be replaced by more appropriate long-term/tested concrete containment buildings.

I'm being called dumb for using a word that cryssan hasn't heard of. CNN is now being called dumb for using the same word.

I'd call CNN dumb for plenty of other shit, I don't need to for this. Also, I don't recall stating that CNN was dumb, just that the media has a tendency to misuse information and words all the time.

Go ahead, prove me wrong on that. By all means, please.

As to the meter thing, I finally found someone who had actually heard of them before. Crusty ol' radcon tech too. Granted, take this as for what it is - tribal knowledge - but his statement was that it had to do with contractors and how they referred to dosimetry equipment (and thereby dosimeters) simply as 'meters. Shortened the word out of laziness or something. I've checked all of our equipment from old to new and assuming they state a title for what they are besides a number and name designation they are 'radiacs'. Before you ask, only the new models are actually made by the same company, SAI. Scientific something Industries. If you really want it I'll make sure to get the full company name when I go back to work next week.

I also just thought about the fact that three months of a dosimeter would account for approximately 10 half-lifes of I-131, which is the generally accepted number of half-lives an isotope must go through before it becomes relatively harmless.

More conservative than what I'm used to; typically always seen it referred to as five half-lives. After five my training tells me to consider it non-existent. A more conservative value existing wouldn't surprise me though.

Children are being given radioactive survey devices for their safety, but that's being called dumb and unnecessary. Did I forget anything? You need to look a little more into who the trolls are.

That is the reason they were given. Due to the unquantifiable nature of the situation, they don't know to what extent the surrounding population is being exposed to radiation. I honestly can't predict what they're looking for, because I don't know exactly what type of equipment they're handing out. If it's meters used to detect radiation, they're concerned with finding specific sources and doing something about them... if it's personal dosimeters that measure the dose a person receives, which are generally worn as rings or clip to a shirt collar(which is what I'm guessing it must be, given the 3 month time frame and the massive expense of handing out 34,000 meters to children vs. the cheaper dosimeters), then they are looking for proof that the children are being exposed to radiation so that they can narrow down where their efforts at cleaning and containment should be focused.

It's scary because the half-life of I-131 is short enough that if they are still being exposed, the site is still venting radioactive Iodine... or, it's a longer life isotope which is potentially much worse. At any rate, in three months it will be interesting once again to see the results.

Does it honestly seem like they would coincidentally plan for the dosimeters to be worn for three months and then returned and measured just to make some parents feel better? More likely, the assuage of fear is a coincidental benefit to what their goal must be, which is to find sources of radiation that are hitting the population. I stand by my statement that it is fucked up shit.

Once again, city officials are doing this. The fact they chose kids (largely due to outcry from parents) is just being used as a convenient hail mary excuse to go overboard with it. Nothing stating that any regulatory agency is involved. Everything stating that it is being done by local officials in Fukushima (and other cities such as Date) as an appeasement measure vice an official data gathering measure. Local gov'ts are being pressured by parents to take some sort of action. This is it.

Hell, the CNN article you quoted/referenced states that specifically, but there are many more articles with further detail if you bother to Google it. The Japanese central government and the regulatory agencies have not committed any involvement to it in anything I can find (in fact, the JP newspaper sources I can access without a subscription are specifically calling out the fact that the central gov't isn't; no releases regarding the issue from TEPCO/NISA/MEXT/IAEA).

But let us just randomly fearmonger, shall we? After all, the rest of the world is doing it, might as well join in. The Fukushima 50 is just a 'suicide corps' operating willy nilly that will all die out within the next decade because of their horrendous exposures. The area will be unlivable and a ghost town for the next fifty+ years and the land/sea animals will all be mutated from radiation exposure.

...or not. But hey, doomsayers gotta get it right sometime; statistically they're due a win.

I'm sorry, but "whatchamacallit" is not a word. Your argument is therefore invalid.

/angry much? Talk to isla or the spam guys and learn how to do it right. Also, Psion (or anyone else), there really isn't any point in getting involved as this has devolved into a silly squabble that we, myself included, continue to propagate.

[aduidarnenye]

I'm sorry, but "whatchamacallit" is not a word. Your argument is therefore invalid.

But I found it on this doowhickeywhacker website!

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/whatchamacallit

[Kryssan]

Posted this while I was writing up my other one, but hey, since I'm already here and I do so love AJ...

Here's an interesting article on Al Jazeera... it's a decent read and illustrates some thought-provoking possibilities, perhaps better than I have.




Fukushima: It's much worse than you think

Scientific experts believe Japan's nuclear disaster to be far worse than governments are revealing to the public.


"Fukushima is the biggest industrial catastrophe in the history of mankind," Arnold Gundersen, a former nuclear industry senior vice president, told Al Jazeera.

Japan's 9.0 earthquake on March 11 caused a massive tsunami that crippled the cooling systems at the Tokyo Electric Power Company's (TEPCO) nuclear plant in Fukushima, Japan. It also led to hydrogen explosions and reactor meltdowns that forced evacuations of those living within a 20km radius of the plant.

Gundersen, a licensed reactor operator with 39 years of nuclear power engineering experience, managing and coordinating projects at 70 nuclear power plants around the US, says the Fukushima nuclear plant likely has more exposed reactor cores than commonly believed.

"Fukushima has three nuclear reactors exposed and four fuel cores exposed," he said, "You probably have the equivalent of 20 nuclear reactor cores because of the fuel cores, and they are all in desperate need of being cooled, and there is no means to cool them effectively."

Um, what? That doesn't even make since. 20 equivalent cores for ... 6 actual cores and spent fuel pools? Ah, no, it doesn't work like that. Reactor kinetics geometry doesn't support - especially given that they have accessed the areas with both robots and people now and determined that the fuel in the pools did not shift/undergo reaction. Whatever this guy's experience, I'm already starting to call BS. That or the media did the (insert scientist says comic).

Also, they've reestablished cooling flowpaths for everything and temperatures of all units below 125C (and all pools below 90C) with the exception of Unit 3 which still remains hotter than the others.

TEPCO has been spraying water on several of the reactors and fuel cores, but this has led to even greater problems, such as radiation being emitted into the air in steam and evaporated sea water - as well as generating hundreds of thousands of tons of highly radioactive sea water that has to be disposed of.

This is true, hence the need for the massive amount of filtration system and water storage they've brought/built at the site. Their current fix that is still progressing forward is the installation of new coolant loops and radiators in order to reuse the water rather than continue with spray/dump operations.

"The problem is how to keep it cool," says Gundersen. "They are pouring in water and the question is what are they going to do with the waste that comes out of that system, because it is going to contain plutonium and uranium. Where do you put the water?"

Lost me again. None of the water samples have contained plutonium or uranium products. I will grant that they contain many other fission products that require containment/treatment however. Plutonium detected in the soil remains at levels seen after fallout from nuclear atmospheric testing in the past and have changed little since March. All increases with Pu concentration in the soil are being attributed to Dai-ichi.

Even though the plant is now shut down, fission products such as uranium continue to generate heat, and therefore require cooling.

"The fuels are now a molten blob at the bottom of the reactor," Gundersen added. "TEPCO announced they had a melt through. A melt down is when the fuel collapses to the bottom of the reactor, and a melt through means it has melted through some layers. That blob is incredibly radioactive, and now you have water on top of it. The water picks up enormous amounts of radiation, so you add more water and you are generating hundreds of thousands of tons of highly radioactive water."

Independent scientists have been monitoring the locations of radioactive "hot spots" around Japan, and their findings are disconcerting.

"We have 20 nuclear cores exposed, the fuel pools have several cores each, that is 20 times the potential to be released than Chernobyl," said Gundersen. "The data I'm seeing shows that we are finding hot spots further away than we had from Chernobyl, and the amount of radiation in many of them was the amount that caused areas to be declared no-man's-land for Chernobyl. We are seeing square kilometres being found 60 to 70 kilometres away from the reactor. You can't clean all this up. We still have radioactive wild boar in Germany, 30 years after Chernobyl."

The 20 cores thing again? I really would like this explained in greater detail. Also, no to the no-man-lands thing. Chernobyl Cs limits were defined at 300000... going through and even examining GreenPeace's (can't believe I actually managed to wade through it, too) data shows soil samples not near this. Are they high? Yep, no denying that. In the 50k ranges for some of them. I don't know what the imposed Iodine limits were though.

Total dispositions have definitely been higher than that I know and there were some IAEA survey maps and reports showing the extent and total disposition amounts before. Iodine was way high; those numbers could be high enough to be above 'habitation zone' limits. Nothing really laid out on the table yet for data perusal.

Also, the term 'hot spots' is rather misleading because to me that has a very distinct definition and their 'hot spots' are defined in terms of double digit micro-Sv/hr. Ah, no, not quite. Not quite by a lot. I will however grant that the radiation levels in some regions is too high for non-radiation workers and long term habitability; hence why they were evacuated. Cleanup will neither be quick nor cheap.

Radiation monitors for children

Japan's Nuclear Emergency Response Headquarters finally admitted earlier this month that reactors 1, 2, and 3 at the Fukushima plant experienced full meltdowns.

TEPCO announced that the accident probably released more radioactive material into the environment than Chernobyl, making it the worst nuclear accident on record.

They did? Definitely do not recall seeing that in their listings of press releases. Anyone know the link/a link off hand to that?

Meanwhile, a nuclear waste advisor to the Japanese government reported that about 966 square kilometres near the power station - an area roughly 17 times the size of Manhattan - is now likely uninhabitable.

In the US, physician Janette Sherman MD and epidemiologist Joseph Mangano published an essay shedding light on a 35 per cent spike in infant mortality in northwest cities that occurred after the Fukushima meltdown, and may well be the result of fallout from the stricken nuclear plant.

The eight cities included in the report are San Jose, Berkeley, San Francisco, Sacramento, Santa Cruz, Portland, Seattle, and Boise, and the time frame of the report included the ten weeks immediately following the disaster.

Okay, what? I don't even. This is just... really? As if the bunny rabbits wasn't enough...

"There is and should be concern about younger people being exposed, and the Japanese government will be giving out radiation monitors to children," Dr MV Ramana, a physicist with the Programme on Science and Global Security at Princeton University who specialises in issues of nuclear safety, told Al Jazeera.

Dr Ramana explained that he believes the primary radiation threat continues to be mostly for residents living within 50km of the plant, but added: "There are going to be areas outside of the Japanese government's 20km mandatory evacuation zone where radiation is higher. So that could mean evacuation zones in those areas as well."

Gundersen points out that far more radiation has been released than has been reported.

"They recalculated the amount of radiation released, but the news is really not talking about this," he said. "The new calculations show that within the first week of the accident, they released 2.3 times as much radiation as they thought they released in the first 80 days."

Not sure where that is coming from. Although, they did this month release a shit-ton of data regarding the inital days of the casualty we have not seen before. A 60 some page report and a 30 some page report regarding the plants and actions taken for the casualty as well as release, disposition, and types.

I hadn't had a chance to read over it until now, but as a result I will recant all of my hydrogen claims from before and apologize; the data as shown after their analysis paints a much clearer picture of what happened when. The reactor cores definitely hit temperatures high enough for hydride reactions (2700~2800C). Granted, it's all still estimates and computer simulations from data they do have.

Links to those reports for those who desire to read them:

Damage Evaluation

Release Evaluation

Also, because I fear it'll be taken that way, this is not to say they were hiding/withholding information. It has taken a while to compile all this information - part of the preliminary IAEA report has been to state that Japan's regulatory agencies have been rather open and forthcoming with all data in regards to the casualty. You can read a snippet of their prelim report on their site; it doesn't include a lot of the reprimands that NISA has passed down though (particularly in regards to response actions/personnel exposure).

According to Gundersen, the exposed reactors and fuel cores are continuing to release microns of caesium, strontium, and plutonium isotopes. These are referred to as "hot particles".

"We are discovering hot particles everywhere in Japan, even in Tokyo," he said. "Scientists are finding these everywhere. Over the last 90 days these hot particles have continued to fall and are being deposited in high concentrations. A lot of people are picking these up in car engine air filters."

Except they aren't... disposition levels are currently measured in double digit Bq amounts... check the IAEA tables.

Radioactive air filters from cars in Fukushima prefecture and Tokyo are now common, and Gundersen says his sources are finding radioactive air filters in the greater Seattle area of the US as well.

Really? Where are these sources for the US findings?

The hot particles on them can eventually lead to cancer.

This just in... no, you know what, I won't even be that asinine. Really easy though.

"These get stuck in your lungs or GI tract, and they are a constant irritant," he explained, "One cigarette doesn't get you, but over time they do. These [hot particles] can cause cancer, but you can't measure them with a Geiger counter. Clearly people in Fukushima prefecture have breathed in a large amount of these particles. Clearly the upper West Coast of the US has people being affected. That area got hit pretty heavy in April."

Once again, we did? How/where/what? Cause the plants aren't reporting it. Lemme guess, the NRC and DoE are covering it up?

Blame the US?

In reaction to the Fukushima catastrophe, Germany is phasing out all of its nuclear reactors over the next decade. In a referendum vote this Monday, 95 per cent of Italians voted in favour of blocking a nuclear power revival in their country. A recent newspaper poll in Japan shows nearly three-quarters of respondents favour a phase-out of nuclear power in Japan.

Forgot to mention Switzerland... minus points for lack of attention to detail. Could also throw Finland and Sweden in there too, they were thinkin' about it... Might still be thinkin' about it (lot more politics/taxes/et cetera involved with the latter two, not to mention they're already warbling over it before hand).

Why have alarms not been sounded about radiation exposure in the US?

Nuclear operator Exelon Corporation has been among Barack Obama's biggest campaign donors, and is one of the largest employers in Illinois where Obama was senator. Exelon has donated more than $269,000 to his political campaigns, thus far. Obama also appointed Exelon CEO John Rowe to his Blue Ribbon Commission on America's Nuclear Future.

Dr Shoji Sawada is a theoretical particle physicist and Professor Emeritus at Nagoya University in Japan.
He is concerned about the types of nuclear plants in his country, and the fact that most of them are of US design.

"Most of the reactors in Japan were designed by US companies who did not care for the effects of earthquakes," Dr Sawada told Al Jazeera. "I think this problem applies to all nuclear power stations across Japan."

Um, yeah, no. They are designed for earthquakes. IIRC most of them are set to withstand DBE Richter 7s.

Using nuclear power to produce electricity in Japan is a product of the nuclear policy of the US, something Dr Sawada feels is also a large component of the problem.

"Most of the Japanese scientists at that time, the mid-1950s, considered that the technology of nuclear energy was under development or not established enough, and that it was too early to be put to practical use," he explained. "The Japan Scientists Council recommended the Japanese government not use this technology yet, but the government accepted to use enriched uranium to fuel nuclear power stations, and was thus subjected to US government policy."

As a 13-year-old, Dr Sawada experienced the US nuclear attack against Japan from his home, situated just 1400 metres from the hypocentre of the Hiroshima bomb.

"I think the Fukushima accident has caused the Japanese people to abandon the myth that nuclear power stations are safe," he said. "Now the opinions of the Japanese people have rapidly changed. Well beyond half the population believes Japan should move towards natural electricity."

Can't say anything on public opinion. That's of course gonna be a shitsty. However, nuclear power stations are just as safe as hydroelectric, or coal, or natural gas... and in case the world has forgotten, might we remind you of August 17th, 2009?

I am curious what natural electricity is though.

A problem of infinite proportions

Dr Ramana expects the plant reactors and fuel cores to be cooled enough for a shutdown within two years.
"But it is going to take a very long time before the fuel can be removed from the reactor," he added. "Dealing with the cracking and compromised structure and dealing with radiation in the area will take several years, there's no question about that."

Dr Sawada is not as clear about how long a cold shutdown could take, and said the problem will be "the effects from caesium-137 that remains in the soil and the polluted water around the power station and underground. It will take a year, or more time, to deal with this".

No argument here. Getting into the cleanup is going to take time, especially since right now they're more worried about containment than cleanup. Both operations are happening in parallel but it is clear to see the former has some weight over the latter right now.

Gundersen pointed out that the units are still leaking radiation.

"They are still emitting radioactive gases and an enormous amount of radioactive liquid," he said. "It will be at least a year before it stops boiling, and until it stops boiling, it's going to be cranking out radioactive steam and liquids."

Before what stops boiling? Boiling has already stopped in everything except Units 1 - 3. Units 1 and 2 we could see below 100C within a month. Unit 3... not so much. Unit 4 is not fueled; the storage fuel pools are not at boiling temperatures. Units 5 and 6 are essentially in cold shutdown already.

Gundersen worries about more earthquake aftershocks, as well as how to cool two of the units.

"Unit four is the most dangerous, it could topple," he said. "After the earthquake in Sumatra there was an 8.6 [aftershock] about 90 days later, so we are not out of the woods yet. And you're at a point where, if that happens, there is no science for this, no one has ever imagined having hot nuclear fuel lying outside the fuel pool. They've not figured out how to cool units three and four."

Earthquake concerns... maybe. The buildings are certainly not up to par with regards to structural integrity. But Unit 4 is the concern? I would have picked a different building for 'most likely to topple'. It should be noted however that the integrity of the buildings was intact until the hydrogen explosions - the earthquakes are not reported to have had any impact on that.

As to the cooling issues... they have determined how to cool the pools, and the systems they're building for the reactor cores don't seem to have any major open flaws. Unit 4's alternative system they wanted to install (essentially a copy of the alternate system at Unit 2 already in operation that reduced temperatures to ~30C) was set-back due to the damage of the explosions. Construction and cleanup continues however. At this time they have not renounced their plans for the alternate system.

Gundersen's assessment of solving this crisis is grim.

"Units one through three have nuclear waste on the floor, the melted core, that has plutonium in it, and that has to be removed from the environment for hundreds of thousands of years," he said. "Somehow, robotically, they will have to go in there and manage to put it in a container and store it for infinity, and that technology doesn't exist. Nobody knows how to pick up the molten core from the floor, there is no solution available now for picking that up from the floor."

Lost me again. What melted nuclear waste on the floor? No evidence of corium has been presented in regards to Dai-ichi. Conditions also still don't support the idea of corium lava flows such as those at Chernobyl-4.

Dr Sawada says that the creation of nuclear fission generates radioactive materials for which there is simply no knowledge informing us how to dispose of the radioactive waste safely.

"Until we know how to safely dispose of the radioactive materials generated by nuclear plants, we should postpone these activities so as not to cause further harm to future generations," he explained. "To do otherwise is simply an immoral act, and that is my belief, both as a scientist and as a survivor of the Hiroshima atomic bombing."

Separating this from below so it doesn't get confused of who I'm hammering.

Gundersen believes it will take experts at least ten years to design and implement the plan.

"So ten to 15 years from now maybe we can say the reactors have been dismantled, and in the meantime you wind up contaminating the water," Gundersen said. "We are already seeing Strontium [at] 250 times the allowable limits in the water table at Fukushima. Contaminated water tables are incredibly difficult to clean. So I think we will have a contaminated aquifer in the area of the Fukushima site for a long, long time to come."

The deep well water table at Fukushima has been sampled again and again with levels <MDA for Iodine and Cesium and everything else as of June 16th. Might get in their eventually but right now it is not.

Seawater contamination of Sr was found as reported here in this article, and some groundwater/soil samples came back with Sr as well but nothing new is reported with regards to actual levels in Bq/Kg or per L (except by news media whom are mostly reporting level against legal limit vice actual amount - number I've seen reported ranges from 400 to 6300 Bq per...). As of 17 June (today) the analysis of other elements/nuclides found in the water is still listed as 'under investigation'.

Unfortunately, the history of nuclear disasters appears to back Gundersen's assessment.

"With Three Mile Island and Chernobyl, and now with Fukushima, you can pinpoint the exact day and time they started," he said, "But they never end."

Follow Dahr Jamail on Twitter: @DahrJamail

Indeed, this is the one problem with nuclear power as it stands now; the necessity of 'cradle-to-grave' mentality. None of them will be 'ended' any time soon, though most people have forgotten/blown over TMI-2 since the release was not significant. Then again, most people can't even name the other reactors we've blown up because of that very fact as well.

[noblemountain]

I would vote for Kryssan if he ran for president. Thanks for the real info - the fear mongering bullshit sir.

[Tagus]

I would vote for Kryssan if he ran for president. Thanks for the real info - the fear mongering bullshit sir.

Virtually any nuclear engineer connected with the industry he or she supports cannot be fully trusted right now to give us the full truth about Fukushima because the truth is simply too damaging to the nuclear industry... and they know it. But vote away, my friend. Vote away.