Japan hit by powerful earthquake

[Tagus]

Double post.

[aduidarnenye]

Virtually any nuclear engineer connected with the industry he or she supports cannot be fully trusted right now to give us the full truth about Fukushima because the truth is simply too damaging to the nuclear industry... and they know it. But vote away, my friend. Vote away.

So no matter what the dude says he's probably lying because he doesn't want nuclear energy to look bad while it very likely is plotting to kill us all and rape our daughters? Critical thinking does mean actual thinking you know.

[Psion]

Now now, maybe Tagus just wants to teach us about the common mistakes people make when arguing. Maybe he's trying to show us clear and concise examples of every logical fallacy in the book, including but not limited to shining examples of Ad Hominem, Cherry Picking, and Appeal to Emotion.

You see, he's just trying to make us all better critical thinkers by showing us how not to do it!

[Kryssan]

Actually I find it amusing that you keep falling back on that seeing as I've said elsewhere on these forums that I will probably not be continuing this field once my contract expires next year. Maybe if I could get back into fusion and plasma sciences or get into a design field for a generation V brayton cycle gas-cooled fast reactor... hah, yeah right. That's a pipe dream. Not likely to get back into fusion and plasma sciences either; I hate all the politics associated with the field and public opinion doesn't help either. Not to mention it has been far too long since college... I'd more than likely be a fifth wheel to any development group. I know enough about theory to bedazzle operations but put me in a room with an actual nuclear physicist and the difference is clear. Maybe I could be their gopher...

Completely off topic, but what I really want is a job like three of my friends have gotten - uninterruptible power supply (UPS) contractors. They work as vendors/contractors for organizations with large server banks and heavy-duty backup battery systems. Really though, a ups is not of a complicated construction. My friends drive around a lot, are on call 24/7... but how often have you ever seen a ups fail? Mostly they do PMS/corrective stuff. They make eighty grand a year, plus car maintenance fees of around 400-500 extra a month (they even used to have gas cards, but that got too expensive and people abused them). One of said friends worked for forty hours.... in a month. Forty fucking hours in one month. Color me jealous.

There are some other pretty badass jobs out there like that though, you have to dig and look around for them though. Nuclear operation was never my goal, I love the theory and the scifi element of it.

The reason I even argue these points at all is because I absolutely hate the attitude directed at nuclear power by ignorant people. I disagree with the opinions of Dr. Sawada, but he is most assuredly more than entitled to them - just as any other informed person is. You want to hate on nuclear power, by all means - but know what you're talking about first. His contributions to the article were actually decent as well; though his earthquake comment is off base - I know that engineered safeguards features take a DBE (design basis earthquake) into account (and I've only worked with US plants). Unless perhaps he was specifically referring to designing them for Richter 8+ quakes; however as stated I don't have experience with Japan's reactors so I'm unsure as to what their defined DBE is. One would imagine it to be higher given the nature of Japan, but maybe it isn't - which is definitely a point that should be rectified for current/future plants if that is the case.

His comments about nuclear waste disposal are on point - we still have not determined the mechanism that allowed the Oklo reactors their special features with regards to containment of waste in soil. Yucca Mountain has been cancelled, so spent fuel will have to remain on site for a lot of our reactors - and many reactors across the world are the same way, because despite the fact that fuel storage casks are damn near indestructible noone wants a train filled with nuclear waste rolling through their neighborhood, no matter how minimal it might be or how slight the danger. As seen at Dai-ichi, storing fuel on site leads to a complication of the problems in a design basis casualty scenario.

[Eaglestrike]

Virtually any nuclear engineer connected with the industry he or she supports cannot be fully trusted right now to give us the full truth about Fukushima because the truth is simply too damaging to the nuclear industry... and they know it. But vote away, my friend. Vote away.

And I can't trust anyone claiming there's MORE wrong than what Kryssan says because the oil industry has far more money than the nuclear industry and will do whatever they can to hurt alternative fuel sources to remain in power, sucking up massive profits all the while.

[Tagus]

lol

"Virtually any nuclear engineer connected with the industry he or she supports cannot be fully trusted right now to give us the full truth about Fukushima because the truth is simply too damaging to the nuclear industry... and they know it."

That quote is a direct statement taken from an interview with Akira Tokuhiro, a Japanese born Nuclear Engineer and educator, regarding the disaster in Japan. It seemed pretty obvious to me that you guys were just attacking me for your own amusement, so I figured I'd quote somebody who actually does know what the fuck to see how you responded.

[aduidarnenye]

So a nuclear engineer says to not trust nuclear engineers?

Maybe you shouldn't trust what he says!

[Eaglestrike]

So a nuclear engineer says to not trust nuclear engineers?

Maybe you shouldn't trust what he says!

^ My reaction.

[Kryssan]

lol

"Virtually any nuclear engineer connected with the industry he or she supports cannot be fully trusted right now to give us the full truth about Fukushima because the truth is simply too damaging to the nuclear industry... and they know it."

That quote is a direct statement taken from an interview with Akira Tokuhiro, a Japanese born Nuclear Engineer and educator, regarding the disaster in Japan. It seemed pretty obvious to me that you guys were just attacking me for your own amusement, so I figured I'd quote somebody who actually does know what the fuck to see how you responded.

He's entitled to his opinion. "Not in headlines"... sure. You already know what I think of the media. Just because the information isn't on the front page doesn't mean it is hidden though. Most people just aren't looking for it and are waiting for someone to spoonfeed it to them *cough*. Here's my thoughts on the video.

Basis, initial talk was for Idaho Falls facility... well, they would know everything about contamination and radiation exposure there *snerk*(inappropriate giggling).

So, earthquake analysis. Most reactors designed to shutdown for what is a rough equivalent Richter 6-7 quake (Unit 1 a lot less). Their design basis was later reported at 7.8, and tsunami design basis was like half of what it needed to be. Construction overlook/flaws allowed for extensive flooding and damage to the site. Good lessons learned here. Nothing really new though.

Ah, I did like his outlay of the entirety of all fuel assemblies on site. Lets go back to that earlier AJ article. 20 reactors, was it? Well, let us see. Even IF we assumed that all of the rods, both new and used, were essentially new rods and arranged in appropriate formation for reactor criticality and meltdown, those stored in the Units themselves are equivalent to around 8.5-9 'extra' reactors. The common fuel pool (located elsewhere) was equivalent to 11-12 reactors. Remember, only talking about fuel assembly worth and nothing else. However, as shown in the video, Units 5 and 6 are physically separated from Units 1-4, and the common fuel storage pool is separate from the rest. Units 5 and 6 are cold shutdown, the common fuel pool isn't damaged... so that just eliminated around 14-16 of those 'extra' cores... leaving you with a total of 11 'combined cores'.... which is all an extremely stupid supposition to begin with and my brain hurts trying to fathom it. Fuel in fuel pools is not a core, and all of the fuel pools are below boiling temperatures (some are quite close to 'comfortable' room temperature, as a matter of fact).

Interesting allay to TEPCO telling them not to wear boots. Haven't read about that anywhere, would like a source for further detail. He did cover though how they essentially ignored their warning indicators - though he didn't cover how they had received training and just blatantly disregarded it. One of the first major hits NISA responded to concerning the casualty.

His talk about decay heat... he included Unit 4 in that discussion. I don't know why. Unit 4 was shutdown, defueled, and in maintenance at the time of the quake. The shutdown had occurred earlier, and as such the decay heat from Unit 4 is already in the lower realm. This is why though there are so many more fuel cells in the fuel pool at Unit 4, the pool still isn't boiling despite all the problems they've had. Which was good news, and dispelled the theories that the fuel pool was responsible for a hydrogen explosion since they were nowhere near hot enough to start a zirc-water reaction.

Zircaloy... good mention. There are reasons for its use though, and so far noone has found anything better than it given current thermal rankine plant design. Some of the experimental/developmental cores have moved on to other materials, but a lot of that has proven not so effective and has maken the cores underreactive (meaning they have lower endurance). Zirc is two sides of a coin; it is extremely corrosion resistant, has a high melting point, doesn't interfere with flux, etc. Unfortunately, it does catch on fire like noone's business (has to be welded in a vacuum chamber) and the zirc-water reaction makes hydrogen which goes boom when it becomes very hot (already mentioned temperatures).

He called out the concrete pumper truck and the heat exchangers specifically and provided good mention to them/of them with regards to why they were used. On the other side though, he talks about how high Chernobyl limits are and makes it a comparison point to Dai-ichi when they aren't really a good comparator. He clarifies himself a few sentences later but there could be some confusion to an average viewer.

He was extremely misleading about Bq and Ci. I understand what he meant, but I know the difference. Bq is 1 disintegration per second... Ci is 3.7x10^10 disintegrations per second. They measure the same thing, but the units are WAAAAY different. If we start talking about Dai-ichi in Curie content on the same scales as Bq I would quickly become concerned for environmental/personal safety.

Talks about the generic lack of neutron sources, amplifies information regarding how the most quantifiable source of radiation tends to be gamma. Beta/Alpha relatively shielded against unless ingested, spoken earlier in other posts about internal exposure and the results they are learning with regards to personnel and exposure. Also, laughing out loud at the Idaho potatoes joke (particularly concerning the whole Idaho Falls/contamination/etc). I wonder who he gave this seminar too... because if I had been there I'd have given a good hoot.

Not sure I understand the worker thing. They aren't burning people out that quick to require such a rapid or huge turnover. Radiation levels continue to drop across most areas, and they're not sending people into areas they know have high radiation fluxes. Maybe he was long term, but thinking we'd need 50000 people overall to do this is a bit extreme in my opinion. And he was saying they'd maybe need more?

His opinion about INES... I wonder, did you watch this video yourself?

The Hiroshima corollary to Fukushima I also thought to be very misleading. Nuclear plants and nuclear bombs are not the same thing and never will be. The damage incurred is not that of a bomb blast, nothing like the bomb blast, and shouldn't ever be related to a bomb blast, period fucking dot. That's just my opinion of course, but I know a lot of people that would agree with me.

A lot of his lessons learned are already in progress/being done. The coloring thing was a neat reference; most of the plants I've been at already have the coloring thing. I guess it isn't as widespread as I thought it was; but almost every plant I've been at you can look at the paint scheme of a pipe/valve and know what system it is related to and what overall function it serves. More lessons learned covered in IAEA's report, and most likely more outspokenly covered in the upcoming conference.

Bechtel/Bettis shoutout ... and then talking about money. I kinda work for them so I'll save my *snerk* humor *giggle* concerning this correlation to myself. Only two after presentation questions, the first of which being one of my most outspoken issues. Fast reactors... we need them. We need brayton cycles. We could use the gas cooling design. They're damn near impossible to meltdown even if you remove all cooling sources... some really awesome technology there. You can build them in a smaller footprint and still produce near the same energy. But politics... proliferation/terrorist concerns... I fear we'll never see them. Uranium is too tied with nuclear power.

Bulldozing soil for children playgrounds? Also hadn't heard this. Source, anyone?



So, while the information was relatively generic I do feel it was base enough to be understood by most people. Wasn't a bad presentation, I disagree on some points but overall it was decent if now outdated overview of the situation.

[Kerberoz]

Why are you even bothering to respond to the tinfoil hat shit...

[Kryssan]

Because it isn't wrong to fear what you don't understand. I certainly do; nothing wrong with a little healthy fear to keep you from complacency. The part that is wrong is when you don't seek to understand it to mitigate the fear and continue living in fear or let it overpower you. Nuclear power has to be respected, and unfortunately, even when it is events like Dai-ichi still happen. Murphy/O'Leery/Hofstadter's Laws at their best. This is a big casualty, and it will take a long time to fix the physical, emotional, monetary, and physiological damage that has been incurred.

Dai-ichi, like every other reactor that has suffered such events, will be around for a long time to come. The media will forget and remember as the clock ticks by but the people living there will not. Whether they understand or not, they will know and remember what they were made to go through and all the various proclamations, regulations, restrictions, et cetera. I can't do anything about that, nor will/can anyone else on this forum.

No, people like us will argue and debate over it for whatever reason seeking to proclaim, prove, or otherwise put forth words that most will never care to read; my reason is quoted below from an earlier post.

People don't look things up. They don't read things in books. They probably don't even follow the links unless they're really bored. I haven't honestly been following your debate so I can't comment on the content or the people in it, but I can comment on this.

As someone who desires to work in a field that other people do not admittedly understand, you should never quit arguing it. Even when the people you're talking to are the thickest, most dull, arrogant, stubborn, mulish, abhorrently wrong fools in the world. Because when you do, then that person goes and talks to someone else and spreads their misinformation, again and again and again. And as fate would have it, the fools tend to be the loudest and get the most attention. You can't let it happen. No matter what, you can't let it happen.

We really are silly creatures; myself included. I'm essentially white-knighting a principle that even I am jaded over.

[Tagus]

So, while the information was relatively generic I do feel it was base enough to be understood by most people. Wasn't a bad presentation, I disagree on some points but overall it was decent if now outdated overview of the situation.

Yeah, I thought it was a decent video as well. I was really hoping that he would go into the state of the nuclear industry and Fukushima's impact on the policies of Germany, France, Italy, India, etc., but he never really got around to it. Maybe it just wasn't as much a part of the conversation a month ago as it is now.

[Kaslo]

Just saw this this morning:

[Jb1210a]

Why couldn't the radiation have gone up north to New Jersey???

On a more serious note, I haven't read any of the recent developments, but from what I've gathered from skimming the last few pages is that they're not out of the woods yet. My question is, what does this mean for the people living in Japan, are they safe from any long term effects? Obviously, the further away you are from the epicenter of the reactor, the safer you are, but are there any safe areas? The reason I ask, is because I am planning on going and meeting a friend of mine over there in the next few months and I was wondering if there were any places to stay away from.

[Psion]

From what I've seen, just stay 50 or more miles away from the reactor and your cool. <,<

[DragonCloud64]

Another new article on the reactors, looks like this is going to cost TEPCO quite a bit..

http://mdn.mainichi.jp/perspectives/...na005000c.html

[Kryssan]

Iodine release from Dai-ichi increasing infant death rate in Philadelphia is just... That's causation/correlation for you at its best. Somehow radioactive Iodine managed to make it across the Pacific Ocean and the Rocky Mountains to disposition significantly on the East Coast? To say that I am highly skeptical... maybe if this were a story on the West Coast... even then though, the fallout patterns are typically North and West... it would have to be the stuff being put into the ocean rather than any airborne fallout to be viable, and that is going to be severely diluted before going through rain cycles. Contamination btw, not radiation. Fucking a' already. Additionally, this is not the first time Iodine levels rose in Philadelphia prior to Dai-ichi... but that doesn't matter.

The dam thing is odd. Haven't heard anything about it, except in terms of the trenches. The article doesn't go into detail as to what it is they wish to dam... the trenches make sense, and they are underground. The trenches btw refer to the electrical cableway conduits that are currently responsible for a lot of contamination release into the sea. Tagus' video link talks about that, nothing new there... they've been randomly patching holes and dumping in absorbent/scattering material since a while back. Building something underneath the site though, that wouldn't make any sense at all and the article sort of led me to think that is what they were hinting to. Also seemed the article was talking about Dai-ichi having corium bleedthrough... which is definitely something we've seen no evidence of.

That article seemed incredibly biased and focused, not to mention the whole 'radioactive materials are eerily spreading and contaminating...' bit. Obviously, if TEPCO really were putting forth something so crass and the IAEA - not to mention the other independent organizations there assisting - bought off on it and allowed it to happen, the media would get a better scandal than they've had for a while no doubt. Really don't see that happening.


Anyway, in the field of actual information releases from regulatory agencies...

Recommended specific evacuation areas based on survey findings with regards to exposure of individuals over a 1 year time frame (20 mSv = 2 REM)

Investigative report regarding the expected release of contamination due to venting of Unit 2 in order to improve the working environment

[Correction]

Just saw this this morning:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMV4p6RS1c8

Half of this guys videos have ALL CAPS HOLY SHIT EVERYTHING'S DYING titles and the other half is some serious Michigan Militia, Precious Bodily Fluids paranoia shit. Hilarity.

[Olo401]

There's a greater chance that babies are dying from leakage at TMI than from Fukushima.. for fuck's sake..

[Kryssan]

Latest estimates from TEPCO are stating that the cover building for Unit 1 should be completed by end-of-September though plans include out to November/December.

The water treatment system they've set up at the plant has now successfully been operating for a while with only minor hiccups (such as requiring filter changeouts). On 24 June approx 2500 tonnes (something like 75k gallons, I think) of water had been treated - which is admittedly a small portion of the total amount of water they're going to have to clean up but at least they're making progress.



Outside of Japan, for those in America unawares, they've been having flooding issues with two nuclear power plants in Nebraska. Heavy rains and melt have resulted in the Missouri River brimming over and the Fort Calhoun and Cooper nuclear power stations have led to the requirements to place berms and aquadams around the sites. On 26 June part of the temporary measures broke through, allowing some flood water to surround buildings and transformers. Cooper station continues to operate for now, Fort Calhoun was shutdown back in April for refuel.