Japan hit by powerful earthquake

[Celeste]

I am indifferent about this thread.

[popsiclestix]

A lot of people had thyroid cancer from Chernobyl i heard. A coworker of my fathers was in Germany working on a US base and had thyroid cancer as a result of Chernobyl. Googling it, it seemed it was pretty prevalent.

Living in Japan personally, I still try to avoid eating fish (sushi, sashimi) but its like being in Buffalo and avoiding wings... Fukushima is sadly tainted name. I check the location of where every food product is made and highly skeptical when I can't read the name of the origin of the product like fruits, vegetables and dairy products. I still don't drink the water, but I eat obentos. There is probably some hypocrisy in my methods but I still try a little.

Summer is going to be an interesting time. With all the plants shutdown, electricity will have to be rationed again!

[Kryssan]

Well, I guess that's where we disagree. I'm sorry that you don't find my comments to be of value, but he has been shading this entire set of circumstances to suggest that there is no problem with nuclear power, BECAUSE HE IS A FUCKING NUCLEAR POWER OPERATOR. If nuclear power is deemed unsafe and our country started shutting down reactors like they did in Japan, Germany, etc., he would be out of a job. It's like a medical company selling the newest cure for [insert disease here], or the car salesman not tellling you the A/C doesn't work on the used car you're looking at in his lot because he wants you to buy it. It's actually quite annoying that you keep trying to blame the messenger on that one, so perhaps I'll take a few minutes to go into greater detail on why I think you're a fucking retard.

The funny part is that you keep latching onto this for some reason. I'm fairly certain that I've stated before my love of nuclear power is the theory / research / development side of the house, not operations, and unless I absolutely had to I would be walking out of nuclear power since I can't do what I actually desire to do. So this has absolutely nothing to do with job security.

And just to affirm that point, based on the job offer I'm supposedly getting offered today I will be forever walking out on anything nuclear power related as of this summer. I'm still not sure how I feel about walking out on something I've been doing for 11 years now, but this new job will have it's own challenges and fun, I'm sure. And their benefits package is awesome.

Where to start... I guess a good place would be by attempting, once again, to reiterate the bone I threw you earlier in this thread in the attempt get your pathetic excuse for a thought process off my dick. I've admitted several times that his information is useful, because I don't really give a shit about winning internet points here with douchebags like yourself who's opinions are obviously flawed... and tbh it actually is somewhat useful to me. I've learned some stuff, for sure. Stuff that has actually come in useful in my career, which is more than probably anybody could honestly claim about this thread, so in some ways, I've benefited from his posts more than any other person up in this bitch. But in all honesty, it is offensive on several levels to me that he consistently and obviously attempts to make this incident sound like it's small potatoes. His posts remind me of the messages I get from upper management when they're encouraging me that I shouldn't worry about something that I have EVERY reason to worry about.

And that is why I hate it. Simply put. The end. Everything that he posts reads like a goddamn contrived piece of bullshit designed to make everybody feel like everything is just fine, because if nuclear power gets a bad rap, the dude will be looking for a new job. His entire education and career is built upon an industry that is feared because it is not understood. I can accept that. I can accept that anybody in his position would probably feel inclined to do the same. Except... I also work with radioactive material, as I've said before. And I've witnessed people try to do this type of shit in their daily work flow, and it effects me negatively.

For example, let me dumb this shit down for you because as I said earlier, you are obviously fucking retarded. I work with I-131. We have an air monitoring system. There are ALARA limits on what levels of I-131 can be released into our workplace air. These limits are based on a annual level... meaning if there's a spike, it would not necessarily be over a limit because the annual levels are the only thing anybody cares about.

Now, say we've got a dumb fucking asshole doing air monitoring, and he puts the filters in the reader backwards and the numbers come back 1/10 what they're actually supposed to. My manager needs those limits to be below the annual limit, so maybe he knows that this dude is a dumb fucking asshole, and he ignores the obvious mistake because we make a shit ton of money off I-131, and to go over the limit would shut us down for 3 months. Now, say somebody like me calls him on it. What does he do?

He writes me an email that reads like one of Kryssan's posts. To the fucking letter.

Now I'm sorry, once again, that you don't understand why I feel the way I feel about people coloring the facts to represent a false reality of safety. I get it. It doesn't necessarily effect you, that people do this sort of shit. He throws those numbers at you, and you're just like every other dumb fucking retard out there who looks at them and goes, "Ahhh, numbers! He must be telling me the truth because there's numbers, there, and there, and I can see them, and there's no chance that they're wrong. I'm quite sure the readings were perfectly accurate during a meltdown. Why wouldn't they be?" It's all good dude. Just like the fucking air monitoring is all good. Just keep holding your breath, avoid the sushi/tuna/insert next item here, and ignore me.

Numbers are elevated. Dai-ichi released a good deal of fission product daughters. We know that now - it wasn't something I immediately wanted to assume however, which can easily be seen by the filter and bias of my earlier posts in this very thread. I'm not going to posture on whether or not my bias is a good or bad thing, but my stance and my bias have always been based on how people run away with shit because they don't understand it. I'm surprised you don't see the logic behind that, but then again I probably shouldn't be since I know that the bias of others in this field rarely ever agrees with another's. It is rather amusing I guess just how different people can be in this field.

There is always some level of concern when people start talking about radiation, but generally the problem with it is that unless you come in hot and heavy with countermands people either run to mutant radiative effects or how everyone who doesn't take the proper precautions is going to die a horrible death. In a fire. And it all stems from how we simply don't know what happens to you when you are exposed to chronic low doses. We just don't have the data, and when scientists can't prove something explicitly noone listens to them because they usually stay quiet while the fearmongers outcry on superstition alone. I'm certainly not saying that you want to go take a bath in any of Dai-ichi's building water pools, but at the same time being concerned about a slightly elevated radioisotope level in fish that is still a decade of inclination away from legal limits which are small to begin with is just silly. If you're that concerned you should probably get some super whamadyne HEPA filters for your house, that needs to be built with at least gamma shielding, somehow filter out your food and drink materials of radioisotopes, and never leave. And even that's not going to stop the cosmic ray effects, or the shit already in your body, so it would be pointless anyway.

Tell me, as someone who works with Iodine on a regular basis, that you did not cringe at the thought of people willingly chugging KI tablets? I do. Fuck that shit. I would totally not ingest KI unless it was issued by an organization I had faith in with regards to their ability to know if it was needed or I personally knew I absolutely needed it. The bombs in Japan, the nuclear testing in the Philippines, and Chernobyl proved the use and effectiveness of the issuance of those tablets to protect against radio-iodine (in the former two cases because they weren't available / issued, and in Chernobyl because they were only issued in limited amounts due to lack of availability or disbelief that the fallout could cause thyroid cancer so far away), in ways that can still be measured today. But the dose in those tablets ain't exactly healthy, either; it is just the better of two evils. Yet people were buying it up in storms, simply because of their fear. That noone even tried to placate.

Am I biased? Damn right I am, and I take no shame in admitting it.

lol

Just saw that one. If it's any consolation, he may be smart, and he may do his research, but his incredible bias towards radioactivity being safe under virtually every conceivable circumstance must lead to some serious stress levels.... because it's just not. If this incident has shown us anything, it's that the far-reaching impact of even the smallest occurrence is impossible to predict. And as an added bonus, just hearing the title of the movie "Chernobyl Diaries" in commercials has to make his stomach clench in ulcer inducing, futile anger.

Going to check that one out, Kryssan? I heard it's a realistic and compelling documentary on what would undoubtedly happen to a group of big-breasted and well-endowed co-ed's who happened upon the radioactive wasteland of Chernobyl.

I've actually never heard of this. Probably because I don't watch tv anymore, do it all online and kill commercials however I can when doing so. Guess I'll look into it though. Do they at least make an effort to pronounce it right or do they keep saying it like everyone else for the past ~30 years? That's a show stopper right there. It's like hearing how some people say nuclear... just grates the nerves.

Was that a random jab or did you glean that I was a breasts guy somehow? If random nice touch. If not, good stalking, haha. Although, I'm not like what I see as the most in that crowd, I prefer a well shaped perky / pert American cup B / C on the right framed girl. Breasts start getting fugly past D.

But I digress...

A lot of people had thyroid cancer from Chernobyl i heard. A coworker of my fathers was in Germany working on a US base and had thyroid cancer as a result of Chernobyl. Googling it, it seemed it was pretty prevalent.

Living in Japan personally, I still try to avoid eating fish (sushi, sashimi) but its like being in Buffalo and avoiding wings... Fukushima is sadly tainted name. I check the location of where every food product is made and highly skeptical when I can't read the name of the origin of the product like fruits, vegetables and dairy products. I still don't drink the water, but I eat obentos. There is probably some hypocrisy in my methods but I still try a little.

Summer is going to be an interesting time. With all the plants shutdown, electricity will have to be rationed again!

Yeah, maybe a little, but everyone will do as they will and that is their choice. As for electricity though, you might luck out there. While all of them are currently shutdown, several of the plants have completed their safety shutdown assessments and they're simply waiting for political approval to startup.

[Acevalefor]

Where to start... I guess a good place would be by attempting, once again, to reiterate the bone I threw you earlier in this thread in the attempt get your pathetic excuse for a thought process off my dick.

Stopped reading right there. Everything you said after that was lost. Calling people retarded and demeaning them because you disagree with them is not how you get people to see your point of view.

[Cail]

It's like hearing how some people say nuclear... just grates the nerves.

Stopped reading right there. Everything you said after that was lost. Calling people retarded and demeaning them because you disagree with them is not how you get people to see your point of view.

this over and over again

[Kerberoz]

[Rhinox]

Wish this thread was hit by a powerful earthquake.


my god

[scaevola]

No time to source this right now (and I'm sure there are people more qualified than me to say so), but I remember reading a few years ago that if you don't see much long-term damage from radiation after a nuclear bomb, it's because the sheer heat of the detonation itself destroys most of the radioactive material. This is the point of a "dirty bomb"; it's a less intense explosion meant to spread radioactive material rather than consume it for more power. This would also explain why you'd see more long-term radiation damage from a plant meltdown like Chernobyl.

Again, I'm not a nuclear physicist but it makes intuitive sense; if a nuclear warhead didn't consume the uranium for more power it wouldn't be different from any other bomb.

[Byrthnoth]

No time to source this right now (and I'm sure there are people more qualified than me to say so), but I remember reading a few years ago that if you don't see much long-term damage from radiation after a nuclear bomb, it's because the sheer heat of the detonation itself destroys most of the radioactive material. This is the point of a "dirty bomb"; it's a less intense explosion meant to spread radioactive material rather than consume it for more power. This would also explain why you'd see more long-term radiation damage from a plant meltdown like Chernobyl.

Again, I'm not a nuclear physicist but it makes intuitive sense; if a nuclear warhead didn't consume the uranium for more power it wouldn't be different from any other bomb.

I don't think this is reasonable. If you oxidize radioactive Uranium, you have radioactive uranium oxide. You're only going to get rid of the radioactivity if you stabilize it somehow, like causing fusion or fission to a stable isotope. Furthermore, if this was reasonable then the chain reaction would not occur (it makes a lot of heat).

[Kerberoz]

Again, I'm not a nuclear physicist but it makes intuitive sense; if a nuclear warhead didn't consume the uranium for more power it wouldn't be different from any other bomb.

Err... sorry if I misread, but are you under the impression that fallout is uranium from the bomb?

[Tagus]

Am I biased? Damn right I am, and I take no shame in admitting it.

[Kryssan]

Estimate changes to gross release numbers. Higher estimate of Fukushima releases (link)

The latest analysis has upped the figures for the amount of radioactivity released during the accident at Fukushima Daiichi, although the estimate for the main long-term contaminant, caesium-137, was actually reduced.

In previous official estimates from Japanese government agencies only broad figures were given for gross releases of iodine-131 and caesium-137. Now Tepco has compiled a more detailed estimate based on data from radiation monitoring cars and validated by government measurements of materials deposited on the ground. The figures are divided between air and sea and raise the overall scale of the iodine-131 release by a factor of three, while marginally reducing the scale of caesium-137 release.

http://world-nuclear-news.org/upload...460x286%29.jpg

Figures for the releases can only be estimated but their effects on radiation dose
rates have been accurately mapped using aircraft survey data

The potential health risk posed by the Fukushima accident was that released iodine-131 could accumulate in the thyroid glands of growing children and lead to cancer cases. Tepco put the amount of this radionuclide at 500 petabecquerels (PBq). The risk from iodine, however, passes quickly as it has a half-life of only eight days. The World Health Organisation said this week that in only one place did children receive a higher dose to their thyroids due to iodine-131, and estimated this at 100-200 millisieverts - well below the levels received by children in the vicinity of the Chernobyl accident which for some groups averaged 1400 millisieverts.

In terms of contamination the most serious radionuclide has been caesium-137, which has a half-life of about 30 years. Tepco said that approximately 10 PBq of this isotope was released to the air. Another 10 PBq of caesium-134 was also released to air, but it has lower contamination potential due to a shorter half life of only two years.

Noble gases amounting to 500 PBq were also released during the accident, but these do not represent a contamination risk or health issue away from the site because they are not biologically active, are quick to decay and disperse easily in the atmosphere.

Similarly, releases to sea have not resulted in contamination beyond the plant's immediate area because the mixing power of ocean currents has dispersed the substances beyond the limits of detection in seawater samples. Tepco estimated that 11 PBq of iodine-131, 3.6 PBq of caesium-137 and 3.5 PBq of caesium-134 were released.


Revisions


The first estimates made shortly after the accident put releases of iodine-131 at 130 PBq. This was raised in June 2011 to 160 PBq and the latest figures have it at 511 PBq. For caesium-137, however, the estimates grew from an initial 6.1 PBq to 15 PBq but have now been revised downwardly to 13.6 PBq.

Tepco warned that the latest figures may not be the final ones: "Further data still needs to be collected to review the validity of our evaluation result considering that the evaluation was done based on a small amount of data in a limited area [the power plant site]."

A PetaBequerel is 10^15 power. To put it into perspective, the atomic bomb at Hiroshima released around 8x10^24 Bq (8YBq, where 1 YBq = 10^24 Bq) of activity, and Chernobyl's gross release was around 14EBq (14x10^18 Bq, where 1 EBq = 10^18 Bq; broken down 1.8 EBq of Iodine-131, 0.085 EBq of 137Cs, 0.01 EBq of 90Sr and 0.003 EBq of plutonium radioisotopes, a smattering of other stuff, and 50% of the gross number was from radioactive noble gasses).

200 mSv = 20 Rem. Or 4 times the absolute nuclear worker exposure yearly limit (typically 5 R / cal yr). 1400 mSv = 140 Rem, which is over the threshold in an acute dose for radiation sickness. No specifics given on what 'the one place' that the elevated thyroid exposure occurred in.

[Kryssan]

I'm a little bit behind the times, but Japan has (mostly) cleared Ohi for restart.

Ohi reactors cleared for restart (link)

Permission to restart the first two of Japan's idled fleet of nuclear power reactors has been given by the prime minister following approvals from local municipal and prefectural authorities. Units 3 and 4 of the Ohi plant are both expected to be back at full power by the end of next month.

http://world-nuclear-news.org/upload..._4_615x160.jpg Ohi units 3 and 4 (Image: IAEA)

After a meeting with trade and industry minister Yukio Edano and two other cabinet colleagues on 16 June, prime minister Yoshihiko Noda announced that the two units at Kansai Electric Power Company's (Kepco's) Ohi plant in Fukui prefecture have been given clearance to restart. The units have been off-line since entering a scheduled periodic inspection outage on 18 March 2011 and 22 July 2011, respectively.

In response to the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear accident, the Japanese government ordered all of the country's nuclear plants to undergo two-phase 'stress tests' to verify their ability to withstand extreme events. The first phase of these tests must be carried out while the reactor is shut down for a scheduled outage. In normal operations, Japan's nuclear power plants are taken offline for safety inspections every 13-18 months. The final reactor to shut down for such inspections was Hokkaido Electric's Tomari 3, which began its outage on 5 May 2012. Since then, all units in the country's potential operating fleet of 44 have remained idle.


Regulatory reform

The approval to restart Ohi 3 and 4 came the day after Japan's lower house of parliament, the House of Representatives, passed a bill to establish a new national nuclear regulatory body. The current regulator, NISA, falls under the Ministry of Economy, Trade and Industry, which has previously promoted the use of nuclear energy.

Under the proposed arrangement, a new body called the Nuclear Regulatory Authority (NRA) will be created. This will be linked to the Ministry of Environment and will have its own independent staff of 500 and a budget of ¥50 billion (about $600 million) per year. Also coming under the remit of the Ministry of the Environment will be the Nuclear Safety Investigation Committee, which will review the effectiveness of the NRA and be responsible for the investigation of nuclear accidents.

The bill is expected to be approved by the upper house of parliament so that the new regulatory regime can be in place by September.

Under the first stage of stress tests utilities are required to examine the safety margin of important pieces of equipment in accordance with guidelines set by the country's Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency (NISA) and Nuclear Safety Commission (NSC). Analyses for this at Ohi 3 and 4 were presented to NISA in October and November last year respectively. A review by NISA was completed by mid-February this year, confirmed by the NSC in March. The results of these tests were subsequently approved by ministers in April. Although the final decision to restart the units lay with Noda and the other three ministers, approval from municipal and prefectural authorities has since been sought. Last week, the mayor of Ohi town, Shinobu Tokioka, gave his approval for the restart of the units, closely followed by approval from the governor of Fukui prefecture, Issei Nishikawa.

Noda said: "Now that we have won the understanding of the municipality in which the nuclear power plant is located, the restart of unit 3 and 4 of the Ohi nuclear power station by the four ministers shall be the final judgement by the government." However, he added, "The administration is committed to further carry forward the approaches to restore the public's trust in nuclear power administration and the safety regulation."

Noda said that his decision to grant permission for the restart was made in order to protect the livelihood of the Japanese people. That decision, he said, had been based on a "comprehensive, all-embracing evaluation." There had been concerns that Kepco's distribution region - one of Japan's most dense in terms of industry and population - would suffer from power shortages during the forthcoming hot summer months if the units were not restarted.

Edano commented, "There is no such thing as a perfect score when it comes to disaster prevention steps. But, based on what we learned from the Fukushima accident, those measures that need to be taken urgently have been addressed, and the level of safety [at the Ohi plant] has been considerably enhanced."

Kepco announced that it has already begun work to restart the two 1180 MWe pressurized water reactors. It expects unit 3 to be restarted in early July, while unit 4 will return to operation in mid- to late-July.

Further reactor restart approvals could soon follow.

Without its nuclear plants, Japan is having to turn to other sources of power. According to figures from the Japanese Atomic Industry Forum, the country faces a 12% shortage of electricity in summer 2012. Meanwhile additional fossil fuel imports are costing it about $40 billion, or $333 per person, per year while its carbon emissions have risen some 14% above 1990 levels.

[Corinthian_Seraph]

YouTube news clip about the power plant status with inside access. June 25 2012

youtube.com/watch?v=Eg4CMqx_k9A

Can someone with more post this correctly for me please?

[Gwynplaine]

What a load of shit. No one has ever died in a nuclear plant accident, outside the USSR which couldn't smelt a pot so much as sustain a technologically advanced reactor. And yet nuclear is constantly smeared by anti-technology Malthusians. The fact that Fukushima performed so well should be proof against more idiotic controls.

[Tagus]

So according to CNN, the fear mongers are at it again. This time, it's the Fukushima Nuclear Accident Independent Investigation Commission, commissioned by the National Parliament, that had this to say in regards to the incident...


"The nuclear crisis at the Fukushima Daiichi power plant in Japan was a "man-made disaster" that unfolded as a result of collusion between the facility's operator, regulators and the government, an independent panel said in an unusually frank report Thursday.

The report by the Fukushima Nuclear Accident Independent Investigation Commission outlines errors and willful negligence at the plant before the earthquake and tsunami that devastated swaths of northeastern Japan on March 11 last year, and a flawed response in the hours, days and weeks that followed. It also offers recommendations and encourages the nation's parliament to "thoroughly debate and deliberate" the suggestions."


The article goes on to say,

"As well as detailing the specific failings related to the accident, the report describes a Japan in which nuclear power became "an unstoppable force, immune to scrutiny by civil society."

"Its regulation was entrusted to the same government bureaucracy responsible for its promotion," the commission said.



Here's the link: http://www.cnn.com/2012/07/05/world/...ml?hpt=hp_bn2#


It's a wonder that nobody previously suggested that when it comes to nuclear "problems" the inmates are running the asylum, until now. Oh wait... that's pretty much exactly what I've been saying for over a year, and have gotten trolled the shit out of for saying it.

[Tagus]

Care to refute any of his points with facts instead of opinions and gut-feeling conspiracy-shill gambits?

And for you, there's a nice little pdf of a survey filled out by the workers that has finally been released. After a couple of minutes looking through it, my favorite (or more accurately, most terrifyingly awful) quote, is this one...

Comment by a primary contractor employee
“The radiation level in the main anti-earthquake building was so high that under normal
circumstances it would have been locked down to prevent entry. I had no choice but
to try to estimate my radiation exposure level in my head. The main anti-earthquake
building was clearly contaminated and there was a rise in the concentration of dust and
iodine. Water was scarce, and I could not wash my hands to eat emergency food. I was
clearly exposed to radiation internally. Water and electricity were urgently needed, however
there was no supply of either from outside. The plant was completely isolated and I
thought I had been abandoned.”


The scariest part, is where he stated that he was required to "estimate his radiation exposure in his head." Could you please explain to me what kind of facts you would like me to provide, now that some of this information is coming out? How does one measure an invisible source of energy in their head exactly? Would you like me to copy and paste some more survey answers, where people talk about sharing dosimetry with up to 5 other people? Or perhaps explain how unreasonable that is, given that the source of radiation for a given person is dependent entirely on that individual's distance and shielding, which varies tremendously based on where that individual is standing... and a person next to them wearing dosimetry wouldn't provide even the slightest degree of accuracy in measuring the first person's exposure? Or how the computer systems were down and they had to estimate their radiation exposure without any means of measuring it or even a pen and paper to write it down?

I'm just curious. Feel free to peruse the facts yourself, if that was what you were really interested in.

http://naiic.go.jp/wp-content/upload...ers_survey.pdf

[Tagus]

And then there's this little gem...


Comments by a primary contractor employee

“After the accident, there were no whole body counter tests and it was deemed that there was no radiation. (I wonder, could this be the result of orders from the electric companies and primary contractors?)"

And this:

"I repeatedly requested a whole body check from my employer in late March and April, but my request was always denied."

Denial of a whole body check? Seriously?? God only knows how many people's numbers were hidden because they would have skewed what TEPCO was reporting.




I am going to say this once, and possibly get in trouble for it, but I won't say it again...

To each and every person that criticized me in this thread over the past year.... fuck you. I knew I was right, there's no glory in it, but I knew it. That's the only reason I argued so much, and so vehemently, and so intensely. Because I fucking knew that every statistic we were seeing was utter bullshit, and you all ate it up.

Go read this shit, and you'll know what I was talking about. It's fucking horrid, being right about something so terrible.

http://naiic.go.jp/wp-content/upload...rt_lo_res2.pdf

[Kryssan]

What a load of shit. No one has ever died in a nuclear plant accident, outside the USSR which couldn't smelt a pot so much as sustain a technologically advanced reactor. And yet nuclear is constantly smeared by anti-technology Malthusians. The fact that Fukushima performed so well should be proof against more idiotic controls.

This isn't so true. The first people to die in a reactor accident were in the United States, not Russia. At least to our knowledge, maybe the Ruskies hid it. America's blown up quite a few reactors, most of them haven't resulted in personnel death or radioactive contamination release. A few of them did, and up until Dai-ichi, it was always easily shown that humans were directly at fault for causing said accidents - Chernobyl 4 was just an extreme case. Not trying to be mean, but this sort of mentality is what breeds Tagus' reverse mentality on the subject - that is to say, thinking that nukes believe they can do no wrong and are hiding the truth.

So according to CNN, the fear mongers are at it again. This time, it's the Fukushima Nuclear Accident Independent Investigation Commission, commissioned by the National Parliament, that had this to say in regards to the incident...


"The nuclear crisis at the Fukushima Daiichi power plant in Japan was a "man-made disaster" that unfolded as a result of collusion between the facility's operator, regulators and the government, an independent panel said in an unusually frank report Thursday.

The report by the Fukushima Nuclear Accident Independent Investigation Commission outlines errors and willful negligence at the plant before the earthquake and tsunami that devastated swaths of northeastern Japan on March 11 last year, and a flawed response in the hours, days and weeks that followed. It also offers recommendations and encourages the nation's parliament to "thoroughly debate and deliberate" the suggestions."


The article goes on to say,

"As well as detailing the specific failings related to the accident, the report describes a Japan in which nuclear power became "an unstoppable force, immune to scrutiny by civil society."

"Its regulation was entrusted to the same government bureaucracy responsible for its promotion," the commission said.



Here's the link: http://www.cnn.com/2012/07/05/world/...ml?hpt=hp_bn2#


It's a wonder that nobody previously suggested that when it comes to nuclear "problems" the inmates are running the asylum, until now. Oh wait... that's pretty much exactly what I've been saying for over a year, and have gotten trolled the shit out of for saying it.

You do realize several organizations have released 'independent' reports, yes? Actually, one of them was from several months ago, and I posted it here. I do find the CNN article to be highly suspect, since they have several data points incorrect. The most alarming / amusing of which is the number of reactors Japan currently has available. You'd think they could at least get that number right, seeing as it is a pretty quick counting game.

And for you, there's a nice little pdf of a survey filled out by the workers that has finally been released. After a couple of minutes looking through it, my favorite (or more accurately, most terrifyingly awful) quote, is this one...

Comment by a primary contractor employee
“The radiation level in the main anti-earthquake building was so high that under normal
circumstances it would have been locked down to prevent entry. I had no choice but
to try to estimate my radiation exposure level in my head. The main anti-earthquake
building was clearly contaminated and there was a rise in the concentration of dust and
iodine. Water was scarce, and I could not wash my hands to eat emergency food. I was
clearly exposed to radiation internally. Water and electricity were urgently needed, however
there was no supply of either from outside. The plant was completely isolated and I
thought I had been abandoned.”


The scariest part, is where he stated that he was required to "estimate his radiation exposure in his head." Could you please explain to me what kind of facts you would like me to provide, now that some of this information is coming out? How does one measure an invisible source of energy in their head exactly? Would you like me to copy and paste some more survey answers, where people talk about sharing dosimetry with up to 5 other people? Or perhaps explain how unreasonable that is, given that the source of radiation for a given person is dependent entirely on that individual's distance and shielding, which varies tremendously based on where that individual is standing... and a person next to them wearing dosimetry wouldn't provide even the slightest degree of accuracy in measuring the first person's exposure? Or how the computer systems were down and they had to estimate their radiation exposure without any means of measuring it or even a pen and paper to write it down?

I'm just curious. Feel free to peruse the facts yourself, if that was what you were really interested in.

http://naiic.go.jp/wp-content/upload...ers_survey.pdf

I'm curious, what do you think he was supposed to do, exactly? In the early days of the crisis there was no electrical power, as stated, for anything. People were doing whatever it took to keep the reactor stable, which is also when the emergency limits were imposed. If you were not aware, emergency limits for a power plant only impose a number when you are attempting to save equipment - to save lives, there is no limit, never has been, and never will be. During the initial instances, there were several cases of people whose status was unknown, and eventually we learned of a few fatalities. This guy you quote just happened to be one of the lucky ones - look at what he was talking about. The main anti-earthquake building? Should be ringing bells - it was mentioned a lot previously, in the early stages.

As for sharing dosimetry, your own linked report that you cherish so much as your proof states specifically that this was only done in low radiation areas - and while it is certainly neither desirable nor wanted to be done, it had to be done. After the fact, massive dose investigations had to be carried out, and yes, the data from those are estimates, again, because of the lack of working instrumentation. Onto the points made by being denied access to equipment, he was denied because his cumulative at the time was 0.08 and they were only doing 0.1, which is also stated in your report. 0.08 is 8mrem... are you joking? And they were doing scans at 10 millirem, and you still are calling them out? Are you sure you're a radiation worker? In the middle of a casualty and you're worried about double digit exposure? See my later comments about contractors / subcontractors. More to the point, a few months after the events all workers involved did receive investigations and scans anyway, which again, all of this has been mentioned before.

It was difficult to get data on anything then, and a lot of the estimates for release actually came from Daini down the road, not Dai-ichi, since as stated they had no power.

TEPCO had serious issues with responding to the after-effects of the casualty, and there were many lessons learned from the event - some items I particularly had thought were standard across all plants but apparently were not. I've already mentioned those earlier in this thread. However, to say that TEPCO directly was involved in causing the incident? I think that is pushing it, but it does not surprise me. What TEPCO faced is rather difficult to analyze or prepare for.

More importantly however is just how much of this data is from contractors and subcontractors. You really don't want to get me started on those organizations. Suppose it is too late to say that though, considering...

And then there's this little gem...


Comments by a primary contractor employee

“After the accident, there were no whole body counter tests and it was deemed that there was no radiation. (I wonder, could this be the result of orders from the electric companies and primary contractors?)"

And this:

"I repeatedly requested a whole body check from my employer in late March and April, but my request was always denied."

Denial of a whole body check? Seriously?? God only knows how many people's numbers were hidden because they would have skewed what TEPCO was reporting.




I am going to say this once, and possibly get in trouble for it, but I won't say it again...

To each and every person that criticized me in this thread over the past year.... fuck you. I knew I was right, there's no glory in it, but I knew it. That's the only reason I argued so much, and so vehemently, and so intensely. Because I fucking knew that every statistic we were seeing was utter bullshit, and you all ate it up.

Go read this shit, and you'll know what I was talking about. It's fucking horrid, being right about something so terrible.

http://naiic.go.jp/wp-content/upload...rt_lo_res2.pdf

No, you're still fear mongering. You wanted to be right so bad that you're throwing anything you can at it, in spite of everything else that has already been said and shown to be true. TEPCO isn't the only item involved here, and several reports have already been released on all of these items, reports that I linked to, that you have already admitted you didn't want to spend the time reading. I had not seen access to personnel reports like these specifically until now, but what is contained within them does not surprise me given what I know. There is no denial of the issues with the contractors and subcontractors on the site in the wake of the accident. Generally speaking, they do not know hardly anything about reactors or reactor grade systems unless they happen to be the contractor for that specific thing, and even then, they don't really know about anything else.

Of all the incidents that occurred in the wake, almost all of them were from the contractors / sub-contractors. The grossest one I know of in the earliest times of the casualty were the three radiation workers who received large beta burns to their legs. Despite wearing dosimetry, when the equipment alarmed to the high radiation condition, they continued on anyway, believing it to be faulty when they were specifically informed otherwise. The issues with the contractors / subcontractors is something that needs to be addressed, but that is for higher levels at much broader sweeps, since it is true for far too much area.

As for the denial of services you so painstakingly harp on, this was already mentioned as well, by me again, and was due to Daini's facilities being unable to keep up with the mass order since Dai-ichi was unable to field it themselves. Other regulatory agencies have already commented on and reported on these instances and what they expected to do about them, however, outside of the second month of the casualty these occurrences were not happening.


TEPCO's response actions after the fact were a mess, nobody is denying that. The site workers for the most part however did what they were supposed to do with what they had available (there are a few instances otherwise with regards to safe-shutdown equipment operations but it is not unexpected given that they had no idea what the actual conditions were without working instrumentation). This is why Japan is replacing its nuclear regulatory agency with a new one, why several members at TEPCO resigned, and why such extensive help was required from the IAEA and the other agencies that provided it.

[Tagus]

No, you're still fear mongering. You wanted to be right so bad that you're throwing anything you can at it, in spite of everything else that has already been said and shown to be true.

I'm not really interested in arguing with you anymore. All I've been trying to get across in this thread since the beginning is that it is impossible to quantify a situation of this sort of chaotic nature, and that the people quantifying it and then presenting results are people such as yourself, who have a vested interest in the data being presented a certain way. I was probably a little bit belligerent about it, but that is because it disgusts me, and I feel that you should be ashamed.

This report commissioned by the country itself states that not only is this universally and unequivocally true, but that TEPCO blamed the Tsunami for a situation they could have prevented, and then not only didn't even give emergency workers the means to monitor their own safety, but reported data that was reverse-engineered and in many ways completely lacking. It's confirming everything that I thought to be true. There's really no denying it at this point.