Canada Election 2011

[Olo401]

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/p...in-quebec-poll

Go Jack!

Now that is quite a development.. tho it doesn't really seem like a surprise. The Tories have been in power, with the Bloc propping them up, for cycle after cycle. People are tired of it, whether or not they support independence for Quebec.

[Skjie]

As well, both the Bloc and NDP are leftist parties, people jumping ship from the Bloc are most likely to turn to the NDP before the other two parties.

[Thoronas]

[Kaylia]

If only the NPD could get ride of the Bloc once and for all. This stupid independence bullshit has lasted too long, and it need to stop to let the province focus on more important issue.

I believe the left is completely irresponsible (economically), but I'm almost tempted to vote for the NPD just to make sure Duceppe score as low as possible in the poll. Not that I will actually give my vote to communism..but it's still tempting to fight fire with fire.

[Hyriu]

lol

[Mytiwar]

I believe the left is completely irresponsible (economically)

Please.
How can you even know without giving them a chance. Their numbers seem to add up as much as any other party out there, it's not like they'd just throw money out the window.
Investing in social issues ends up costing less for a country as a whole economically than most people seem to be believing.

[Mazmaz]

I believe the left is completely irresponsible (economically)

I'm still amazed that attack ads work on people in this way. It's funny that the Conservatives take the country from a huge surplus into a massive deficit and people somehow still believe that they are the most fiscally responsible party. lol

[Kaylia]

Please.
How can you even know without giving them a chance. Their numbers seem to add up as much as any other party out there, it's not like they'd just throw money out the window.

Just a few day ago, they agreed to consider a tramway, and a bullet train project in québec city...two ridiculous project considering the size of the city and how much they cost. If you ask me, this is pretty much the definition of throwing money away.


Secondly, the cost of the state in Canada is fucking high already. This isnt something we can afford augmenting even more, and you know it will happen with a left wing party leading. Now, if everybody was responsible with public money, it would be great and all, but it's not the case. Public system are always inefficient and poorly handled, and pumping more money in them isn't exactly the solution.

Thirdly, do you really think we can raise private industry taxes even more? How do you plan to make them stay when another country offer more competitive rate? If they can't leave, do you think they won't make the customer pay by raising the final price even more? This kind of solution can works on a short term, but it's not appropriate on a long run.

Investing in social issues ends up costing less for a country as a whole economically than most people seem to be believing

Ideally speaking, yes, but you have to maintain a strong economy to afford the bill. What we are doing is here is going to kill the economy slowly, and is going to hurt us eventually when we won't be able to support every social program. Look at what happened in Greece, what is happening in Spain, it gives you a good idea of what happen when the cost of the state become too important.

In my opinion, education is the one place where you have to invest lot of money. That's where the future is.

[Kaylia]

I'm still amazed that attack ads work on people in this way. It's funny that the Conservatives take the country from a huge surplus into a massive deficit and people somehow still believe that they are the most fiscally responsible party. lol

I'm not watching TV at all and don't give a shit about all the propaganda, all I did was read the four 70 pages documents on the party websites, and raged 4 times at the available options. I'm not happy with the current state of politics in Canada (and québec), and would be for a huge restructuration of our system.


Secondly, you need to consider there was the recession recently. I don't know many countries that managed to make a huge surplus in the last couple of years. Judging any goverment without taking this in context would be unfair.

[Thoronas]

Personally I don't know why any party would want to be in power the next few years. When they raise the interest rates from the incredibly lows they've been at for awhile now you're going to see a lot of families have trouble paying their mortgages. Those families aren't going to be listening when politicians try to tell them it was the people in power before them.

Any party in power during something like that will probably have a tough time getting back into power.

[Mazmaz]

Secondly, you need to consider there was the recession recently. I don't know many countries that managed to make a huge surplus in the last couple of years. Judging any goverment without taking this in context would be unfair.

And what about Mulroney before them? My point was that just like Republicans, the Conservatives somehow are known for fiscal responsibility, when the exact opposite is true and the Liberals had to reign in and fix their mess. They want to deregulate corporations and give the rich lots of tax breaks and claim that that's fiscally responsible and is going to create jobs and people like you believe them.

[Mazmaz]

http://www.bclocalnews.com/opinion/l...119290419.html

Yea guys corporate tax cuts really creates jobs.

[Skjie]

While I agree that at this time corporate tax cuts aren't the best motivator, quoting a letter to the editor from a Union member probably isn't going to get your message across.

[Kaylia]

http://www.bclocalnews.com/opinion/l...119290419.html

Yea guys corporate tax cuts really creates jobs.

Conference Board report puts Canada 13th out of 16 advanced countries in terms of productivity.

Point me in your link a convincing argument that explain why the opposite would be a better solution, what I see here is bad statistics that are used out of context.The economy isnt going that well in Canada, but you would have to be a fool to believe that increasing corporate taxes is the solution based on the number alone.

Generally speaking, it's accepted that corporate taxes decrease productivity. . There is studies about this, and the opposite would be very hard to explains in a competitive market. Even if rich people are hoarding ton of money, taxing them isn't going to make them spend more, unless they have nowhere else to go (and sadly, they do considering we have one of the highest taxes rate)


Secondly, why do you believe that increasing the cost of the state is going to benefit us? If raising taxes decrease our productivity as a whole, do you seriously expect the public domain to makes up for it? I'm sorry, but that's not going to happen. Taxes cut alone isn't the solution to the problems, but nicely asking rich people to give us more isn't going to make thing better.

[Kaylia]

quoting a letter to the editor from a Union member probably isn't going to get your message across.

Didn't notice that part....lol

[Kaylia]

Anyway, my original argument wasn't even about taxes cut alone, it's stupid to argue about a single point when economy need to be looked at as a whole. I find leftist irresponsible because nearly every actions they takes decrease the country productivity (very bad), or increase the cost of the state (again, very bad). Their goals, I agree with, but their methods, I just can't see how it could possibly works.


And if Canada is starting to fall behind, it's because every 4 years for the last 30 years, politicians are creating useless jobs to look better in the polls. It's easy for the goverment to inflate employment rate by hiring people on something that isnt needed...but in the end, all these "fakes" jobs don't have a positive impacts on your economy. That's what happened in greece, that's what is hapening in spain, and it's starting to look the same here. We need to stop that.

If we want money, we have to focus on our natural ressources (taxes the fuck out of these corporation if you want, you can get away with it more easily), and focus on education to stay ahead other countries. There is no magic here.

[Mazmaz]

I put the letter up because he shared alot of the things that I think and I would've typed.

It's funny that you bring up natural resources, because it was the "leftists" (NDP + Trudeau minority) that created the nationalized crown corporation Petro-Canada that operated amazingly and even competed with the private sector. And then went to the shitter when Mulroney decided to sell it off and privatize it, costing thousands of jobs and dropping the value of the company hugely. So I don't see why you'd say they have a record of decreasing productivity/increasing cost of state.

I've still yet to see you explain how what Torries are doing is so great for the economy and jobs. The NDP has been the only party to have an incentive for business to hire ($4500 per job) combined with 2% decrease to small businesses tax. This is a real solution for creating jobs, not just giving big breaks to corporate fat cats that'll sit on the money. Raise corporate taxes to help pay for these as well as other programs that will create more jobs for doctors and nurses across the country, as well as public projects.

First they say lowering taxes for corporations are creating jobs, then they're gonna say deregulating them is gonna create jobs, and sooner or later we'll reach the same disastrous place as the US. I've watched you and others in the thread sit there and say the left are economically irresponsible, but no one explains how the Torries plan is creating jobs in this economy right now. We're acting like it's just that easy for corporations to pack up or set up shop based on what the tax rate is.

I didn't read the study you posted cause it's 2 AM, I'll come back to this tomorrow.

[Kaylia]

I've still yet to see you explain how what Torries are doing is so great for the economy and jobs

Why do you keep saying this over and over? I don't want to have the partisan argument you want us to have. You're basically asking me to defend something that I also disagree with. I disagree a tad less, but conservative aren't going to get my vote either.

Also, I don't understand why you bring these 20-40 years old events that have nothing to do with the situation. It was different people with different platform and different philosophies. You can't just look behind, point mistakes, and assume they will be repeated. It would be much more responsible to looks at what the current party have to offer, see what they did over the last few years and decide from there...doing anything else would be stupid imo. And again, I don't even care about individual party (except for the Bloc, they need to burn), what bother me is the leftist in general. I don't think they are evil or anything, but considering the way we handle thing, it's not going to works. The ship is going to continue sinking

The NDP has been the only party to have an incentive for business to hire ($4500 per job) combined with 2% decrease to small businesses tax. This is a real solution for creating jobs, not just giving big breaks to corporate fat cats that'll sit on the money. Raise corporate taxes to help pay for these as well as other programs that will create more jobs for doctors and nurses across the country, as well as public projects.

First they say lowering taxes for corporations are creating jobs, then they're gonna say deregulating them is gonna create jobs, and sooner or later we'll reach the same disastrous place as the US. I've watched you and others in the thread sit there and say the left are economically irresponsible, but no one explains how the Torries plan is creating jobs in this economy right now. We're acting like it's just that easy for corporations to pack up or set up shop based on what the tax rate is

A strong economy will create jobs, not the opposite. Because people only care about jobs, politicians often avoid the first part completely, but it's still what matter the most.

Decreasing small business taxes is a good thing, but it's also something the conservative party did 2 years ago I believe. A 4500$ tax credit on the other hand is probably not as great as it sound (assuming there is no possible abuse, which is unlikely to be the case). If 4500$ was the turning point this year, what do you think will happen one year from now?

And if we exagerate the situation and say the government gives a 45k tax credit per new job, what do you think will happen? At which point between 4k and 45k does it become bad? And why?


It's very hard to comment about the NDP because their platform has very little number. There is a lot of promise, but very little about lowering expense, or how they will do it.

[Ragns]

Psst... tomorrow is the last day for those that want to vote at advance polls.

I always vote this way because I never have to wait in line and the volunteers are so happy to finally see someone after sitting there for hours without seeing anyone.

[Anton]

And what about Mulroney before them? My point was that just like Republicans, the Conservatives somehow are known for fiscal responsibility, when the exact opposite is true and the Liberals had to reign in and fix their mess.

You know, Trudeau was the most fiscally irresponsible PM of all time. His spending structure was creating government programs, and then after a year, evaluate their effectiveness. Such brilliant schemes included a billion dollars to teach french in rural Saskatchewan (you have a better chance of being struck by lightning than running into a francophone in sask.), and the National Energy Program, which was to regulate oil prices in Canada - keep it lower on average than the world price - at the expense of the oil industry. The result was Alberta's GDP tanked (a full year's worth of GDP gone, over the 5 year term of the program), at a time where oil prices were the highest ever, while Central Canada experienced agonizing lines for the few corps who still delivered oil (though, on average, Central Canada may have benefited.)

The icing on the cake was the program was supposed to net a surplus for the 1980 budget, reducing the deficit. Instead, it created a structured deficit on the amount of 29.7 Billion. Canada payed for Trudeau until the 90's, when Chretien's fiscally conservative policies brought the economy back to a surplus.

It's not Liberals -bad, Conservatives -good. One has less government spending than the other, ceteris paribus. If the programs are good, great. But if they don't work, they fail at the public's expense, which is badder.

've still yet to see you explain how what Torries are doing is so great for the economy and jobs. The NDP has been the only party to have an incentive for business to hire ($4500 per job) combined with 2% decrease to small businesses tax. This is a real solution for creating jobs, not just giving big breaks to corporate fat cats that'll sit on the money. Raise corporate taxes to help pay for these as well as other programs that will create more jobs for doctors and nurses across the country, as well as public projects.

First they say lowering taxes for corporations are creating jobs, then they're gonna say deregulating them is gonna create jobs, and sooner or later we'll reach the same disastrous place as the US. I've watched you and others in the thread sit there and say the left are economically irresponsible, but no one explains how the Torries plan is creating jobs in this economy right now. We're acting like it's just that easy for corporations to pack up or set up shop based on what the tax rate is.

Lurk more, this was hit on in the first... oh 7 pages. The tories are doing economic recovery by the book - government spending, make work programs, easy on the taxes. In terms of limiting economic damage, Canada has fared better than most countries over the last three years, though much of this owes to pre-existing liberal regulation.

Deregulation is irrelevant to job creation, and frankly you'd be hard-pressed to sell market deregulation today, no matter what political stripe. The conservatives aren't deregulating.

The overwhelming weight of academic literature suggests that taxing corporate profits is the least efficient way to raise government revenue because it hurts productivity, investment and international competitiveness. But as for job creation, the economic literature is less definitive. Companies are profit-making machines, and they invariably pass along higher costs to consumers (via higher prices) or workers (via lower wages or fewer employees). But creating jobs depends on much more than the tax rate. Exchange rates, labour conditions, costs of materials and regulations are often more important. It's an overall healthy environment that creates jobs, not any one factor.

(Fun Fact: the corporate tax cuts today are largely a continuation of similar Liberal tax cuts. Small wonder Ignatieff has supported them to this point.)

The NDP insists it will keep corporate taxes below the comparable US rate. But they're giving and taking at the same time. The NDP intend to increase the overall corporate tax rate 3% (up to 19.5%), and with that money plow it back with a $4500 credit for a job, and lowering the small business rate from 11% to 9%.

But that's not all. The NDP intend to squeeze a few more billion out of the corporate sector. Ending oil and gas subsidies would be 5.2 billion. Cap-and-Trade on carbon emissions, $7.4 billion (notice the double whammy on oil sands projects). This would all help finance a $21 billion increase in federal programs. The NDP are the only party interested in overhauling the pension system, with stated targets of doubling the CPP and a $400 million injection into the GIS. But there's a price attached. Improving the GIS comes at the expense of the corporate tax raise. Doubling the CPP would raise both worker premiums and employer premiums to match.

Ultimately much of the NDP platform is dedicated to helping job creation, while offsetting their job-creating programs with higher taxes and pension premiums. Is there a net benefit either way? Good luck figuring that out. Tax and spend doesn't appeal to me, regardless.