Canada Election 2011

[aduidarnenye]

The whole University of Guelph thing is disturbing.

[aurik]

Eh, just read the story. Sounds like much ado about nothing. "Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity" etc.

[Skjie]

Um, I thought they did defeat the budget and then did the confidence vote.

No, the Budget vote was pushed back to the Monday, thus the motion to find the Government in contempt was what triggered the election.

@Aurik: Fine, you want to talk policy. Let's talk about building new prisons in a country where crime rates are falling.

EDIT: Or, let's talk about being the first Canadian Government to not win a seat on the UN security council, or any number of issues where Harper has fucked it up completely. Shit, lets go back to talking about cutting the GST if you want to.

[Mytiwar]

Or, let's talk about being the first Canadian Government to not win a seat on the UN security council

I'm up for bashing the conservatives on every issue you mentionned but I think this specific one might not have anything to do with them. I believe it coulda happened with any other party, seeing as how they might have simply chosen another country because it was "their turn".

[Anton]

Let's talk about building new prisons in a country where crime rates are falling.

A bad idea. I don't agree with the tough-on-crime nonsense - whether you're tough or not is up to municipalities and cops.

let's talk about being the first Canadian Government to not win a seat on the UN security council

Blind support for Israel is not good for the Arab vote(and the bulk of our votes, in the end, were from the arabs - so that wasn't it). The Euros wanted their own on the council (we lost to Germany and Portugal). The Africans were angry we weren't donating as much as we had in the past.

I'd say you should be grateful the government didn't attempt to suck hole for the seat with policy, but they did give everyone(the delegates) 100% pure maple syrup and had a mountie demonstration! So they suckholed in alternate ways

And we went through the GST already. It looks good in the news, it's not as effective as cutting more targetted tax, but it is a tax cut for whatever that's worth. At least it doesn't discriminate toward any particular interest group

[Annihilator]

Something that always bothered me about the GST cut was that, since it doesn't apply on basic life necessities like groceries, rent and the likes, the poorer bracket of population who can't afford luxury items won't really see it affect their budget. The ones benefiting the most from a GST cuts are the ones spending most of their money on taxable items. That and the fact that over here, the provincial tax is being calculated on the cost+GST subtotal, so reducing the GST effectively cut a portion of the province's revenues.

[aurik]

No, the Budget vote was pushed back to the Monday, thus the motion to find the Government in contempt was what triggered the election.

@Aurik: Fine, you want to talk policy. Let's talk about building new prisons in a country where crime rates are falling.

EDIT: Or, let's talk about being the first Canadian Government to not win a seat on the UN security council, or any number of issues where Harper has fucked it up completely. Shit, lets go back to talking about cutting the GST if you want to.

Ok. Go ahead. Talk about those things. My guess is you're just reading off of some talking points memo and can't intelligently hold conversation on those things.


@Anton: I'm not the biggest proponent of tough-on-crime legislation either, but you can't deny that building more prison infrastructure is needed (http://www2.macleans.ca/2010/11/05/canadas-prisons/) and it's a decent public-infrastructure expenditure that will act as a stimulus for the economy, much like investing in building roads.

[Skjie]

Hey man, I'm not the one hurling insults at anyone who doesn't agree with me.

PS: http://www.cbc.ca/documentaries/docz...tdoor/wood.pdf
Yep, more law enforcement will certainly make a difference! I live in the middle of a drug war over the profits of "BC Bud", and I'll tell you with first hand experience that more jails and harsher penalties won't do a damn thing to stop it. Harper has shown time and again he is interested in importing US style administration in Canada with no regard to how poorly it worked there.

[aurik]

Except that our prison overcrowding is actually harming our ability to rehabilitate and treat prisoners properly. So even if you're in favor of using the prison system as a way to rehabilitate instead of a way to punish, how can you logically oppose this?

[Mytiwar]

Except that our prison overcrowding is actually harming our ability to rehabilitate and treat prisoners properly. So even if you're in favor of using the prison system as a way to rehabilitate instead of a way to punish, how can you logically oppose this?

Could legislate crimes differently. Now we will probably need more prisons because of the removal of the 1/6th of a sentence but there's always a way to do things differently.

Mostly playing devil's advocate as I am in favour of it for the very point you made. Although it's important to note not all prisons are overpopulated all the time. Some run low depending on the time of the year even.

[Anton]

Well then on that grounds I am for the construction of some new prisons, but I am against the legislative policy that comes with it.

The tough-on-crime federal stance, specifically the tougher laws on drug possession, haven't meant shit all in Toronto. Like the metro police actually give a damn about somebody with a spliff in their pocket. They're lazy, but in this case it's to the public's benefit.

[aurik]

Personally I think that the "tougher on crime" stuff is infeasible considering the poor state of our prisons, and won't come to pass in any way but a token effort. But the important thing is that we spend money on our prison system so that we can treat prisoners humanely and in accordance with their rehabilitation progress. Right now there's a huge incentive to get people out of the prison system due to overcrowding and overstressing of the system, which means that the concept of parole and reduced sentences for rehabilitation are completely watered down, I think that's pretty shameful. (But I'm not surprised...it's a common problem in developed countries, collectively there's distaste for spending money on criminals)

Now there's an opinion that most Conservatives wouldn't have.

[Ragns]

Anyone else noticed the NDP ads on BG while logged off?

[aduidarnenye]

Anyone else noticed the NDP ads on BG while logged off?

Ads on the Internet? I didn't think they existed anymore. I've not seen any since the day I discovered Firefox.

[Skjie]

Except that our prison overcrowding is actually harming our ability to rehabilitate and treat prisoners properly. So even if you're in favor of using the prison system as a way to rehabilitate instead of a way to punish, how can you logically oppose this?

Putting less people in jail for offenses that do not require it, and more people into effective treatment facilities. A little old but: http://www.acsa-caah.ca/Portals/0/Me...tioncanada.pdf
"The National Crime Prevention Council is very conscious of the fact that Canada has one
of the highest rates of incarceration of any industrialized country in the world -- one that
is rising at a higher rate than at any other time in the past quarter century. The Canadian
criminal justice system is facing severe fiscal pressures, while at the same time public
concern about crime is escalating and demands for harsher sentences are increasing. This
is particularly true concerning violent crime. Prison overcrowding and lack of resources
for programming, counselling, and alternatives to incarceration are some symptoms of
this dilemma.
Following an extensive review and debate, the National Crime Prevention Council fully
supports the development of initiatives to improve the effectiveness of the sentencing
process.
We recommend:
1. A criminal justice system which emphasizes the principles of harm reduction and the
use of community-based initiatives. We need a system that develops non-prison
sentences while at the same time holding offenders accountable and responsible for
their actions, and that helps victims to heal.
2. The further development of alternatives to incarceration, especially for non-violent
offenders. A wide range of pre-charge and post-charge alternatives such as
counselling, conferencing, and programming options should be explored.
Collaboration between federal, provincial and community sources should be
encouraged.
3. A mobilization effort that encourages communities to take responsibility for
alternative measures.
4. More support for the use of discretion by judges, prosecutors, police, and probation
officers to encourage their use of alternatives to arrest and prosecution, and to reduce
their overreliance on imprisonment.
5. The development of programs and communication strategies to educate the Canadian
public and increase their confidence in alternatives to imprisonment under the proper
circumstances.
6. More attention be given to the individuals who work within the correctional system.
Front-line workers merit special attention in the areas of support and education.
Human resources are the key to success within the correctional system."

[aurik]

So basically, you agree with me, we should spend more money on the prison/rehab system so that people that need help can get it in a timely manner and can return to being productive members of society as soon as possible.

[Skjie]

Which doesn't mean we should spend more money on bigger, American style jails.

[aurik]

Actually, that's exactly what it means.

Also what the fuck is an "American-style" jail? One filled with mexicans and blacks?

[Skjie]

Seriously? A prison system that is for profit (A) and preoccupied with punishment over rehabilitation (B). Don't be dense.

Putting people convicted of smaller property crimes in the same place as people who violent histories or gang/drug ties is what creates a revolving door system. This is confirmed time and again in reports and studies. Did you even read the article I posted?

[*Shinzon*]

American prisons are for profit? I'd love to see some evidence to back that considering how California just had to release an insane amount of inmates because they couldn't fund keeping them.