Comments from the Devs

[Grey Jorildyn]

How so? You had to rank up both to be a "mage." Just like taking 1 DoW to 50 means jack diddly since you need all those cross class abilities as well. It's sub requirements all over again in a different form.

THM had superior:
- AoE range
- Healing spells (partly due to ranged mechanic)
- Spell library in general for both solo and party play
- Physical damage reduction and gear selection to do it
- Magic damage reduction

What changed this from being this way:
- Removed AoE from sacrifice (so now you take the -HP hit too; that ONLY affected CON casting Sacrifice pre-patch)
- Spell library was balanced out with only Conjurers getting -ga cures.
- Physical damage reduction is still better based on gear selection.
- Magical damage reduction was nerfed with Emulate.
- Solo rendered very difficult to near-impossible with removal of AoE to key spells in the library like Siphon MP.

It was all interacting with one another and small adjustments made for big chances. Conjurer went from being the abused mage job to the best healer available because of these adjustments. The scales were tipped from one direction to another in terms of healing, but THM also got its solo capability stolen from it as a result.
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But imo, you shouldn't have to rank up both mages or multiple DoW jobs to be the best at your <insert main class here>. Your main class should be strong in its own right, with other classes boosting your output just enough to make a difference. Personally I feel like the class system needs far more restriction than it currently has on its because this open-ended nonsense isn't making unique classes whatsoever. It's just making very cookie-cutter setups that echo XI's elitism of "need this SJ or else you're not invited".

I'm sure it's been said here, but think about it in context of gameplay and ability selection. Let's say you want to DPS (since this is the most common role currently in XIV, right? There's 4 jobs that do this specifically). Your choice of "how" to deal damage stops pretty much at your weapon choice. Since the game is in a shallow state of gear right now, that's also already decided for you if you want straight up damage. Thereafter, almost all the abilities you "choose" are already chosen for you. Let's break down a run-of-the-mill DPS.

DPS (18 points!)
Ferocity II
Raging Strike II
Hawk's Eye
Bloodbath II
Invigorate II
Still Precision II

And don't forget, now everyone has to be somewhat self-sustainable!

Other stuff (16 points! if you only pick 2 healing spells)
Second Wind II
Featherfoot II
Emulate
Cure II/III
Sacrifice II/III
Siphon MP cuz I need to get MP back somehow.

Somehow you need to do damage...

Weapon Skills (12-14 points!)
500 TP weapon skill, whichever one I want. Oh wait, Skull Sunder is the best one...
Some 1000 TP weapon skill I'll feel good about using because my main class provides it.
Perhaps I'll pepper in some weapon skill that consumes all my TP like Victimize or Maim... not many choices here
Oh I guess I'll need an AoE weapon skill too.

18+16+12 = 46/48 points.

You only get 64. That leaves you with 22-24 points to actually "choose" how to spec your character. How is that making for unique classes exactly? What it's really asking you do to is pick your favorite weapon type, put on these abilities, then pick a secondary role, but you only get 8 abilities (24 points@3/pop) to make that decision, and even then, that's also already chosen for you...

Want to tank?
Easy: Sentinel, Obsess II, Provoke II, Taunt II, Accomplice, Punishing Barbs, Warmonger (this one's 5), done.

Actually that's the only other role you can perform in a party as a DPS (off-tank).

My opinion: Leveling one DoW or DoM class shouldn't mean "jack diddly", especially in an environment where even when you have them all at 50 (and I do btw so don't take this like I am talking out of my ass), you are just keeping up with the Jones', not making a unique class or improving yourself more than the next guy (who probably also has a ton of jobs at or close to 50).

Conclusion: FFXIV's class system is a perfect example of the illusion of choice.

[Kurokikaze]

FFXIV reminds me of that George Carlin quote about bagels... In the end the choices don't matter. lol

[Lucavi]

This is a game where you can level everything on a single character with tons of horizontal growth, just like XI. I never understood the "bring the player not the class" whiners in XI either, when it was your own dumbass fault that Drg was the only job you leveled over the course of the first three years and you idled in Jueno the rest of the time QQing.

But yeah, I'm probably the minority on that thought. Casuals.

Lol. You can work that journalism degree as a side project, but when its time to get to work "for real", we're gonna need you to bust out that electrical engineering degree and in a hurry.

I've got ya, Celeras. Easier to design all of the content around the electrical engineer than allow for any content where the journalist can shine. Do it for long enough and the "hardcores" will even eventually proclaim it to be the way, the truth, and the light.

[Don Katsu]

To correct myself, I meant to say. Chocobos weren't planned (past tense form of "are not planned") for riding.


Are Chocobos back?
Yes, they will return. But Square Enix has told IGN that it is looking at using them in a completely different way than they were used in Final Fantasy XI (where they were used as riding steeds).

http://ps3.ign.com/articles/991/991483p1.html

and no, I wasn't trolling.

As for the illusion of class choice, I came across that problem yesterday.

My GLA is 31 and every build points me in the direction of having Punishing Barbs... My THM is level 8. Taunt II comes from PGL. If you want to be effective at one job you have to level several. It's actually more work than 11's system of leveling one job one sub. For the longest time there was no reason to sub anything other than WHM as SMN. I don't know much about 11 anymore so I can't say how that's change, but I think most can see my point.

[Kurokikaze]

As I said before.. Old crew and therefore irrelevant now.

[Gadritan]

Unnecessary wall of txt

THM has superior AoE. That's it. I think you missed the ranking up both part. Aside from AoE, there was no difference other than CD and potency from cross class.

Wtf are you going on about with gear selection too btw? They have access to gear that's equal in every way as far as damage mitigation.

Yes, you -should- be able to rank up 1 and be extremely efficient with it, but that's not the case.

There's "should be," and there's "is." I'm not interested in the former.

[Grey Jorildyn]

Hardly a wall of text since there were paragraphs and information that made sense.

They may have similar gear, but THM did have acton on the body and toadskin boots on feet. Not a huge deal I suppose. THM also gets more HP per point of VIT. My CNJ has 1350 HP at 50, but my THM has 1440 (174 VIT allocation). There are some differences in survivability there.

There's "should be," and there's "is." I'm not interested in the former.

The forums (official) are moving in a direction of suggestion and criticism. We might even call it a cycle at this point. The fact that there are "dev comments" points to that as well. People are interested in the "should be" and frustrated with the "is". There "is" a lot of problems with the class system as well as other parts of the game and much of it has to do with the decisions made that have you taking these roundabout routes to achieve the same thing in other MMOs. It's SE's niche it seems.

[Gadritan]

Look, you wrote a fucking novel about the difference between sharp and medium cheddar cheese.

All you were going on about was the cock hair of a difference there was pre-patch (that you felt was a mountainous gaping void), which has fuck all to do with what's going on now. Nor do the discussions on the official forums have anything to do with this conversation.

Stop grasping at straws.

[Don Katsu]

"should be" is what got rid of the old development team and what changed this game into what it is today.

[Lordender]

Has nothing to do with people "only wanting to level one class" that argument is poor at best, the point is why have classes that are going to be completely useless? Lets just have 4 classes if we're going to do that, 1 magic DD, 1 melee, 1 tank, 1 healer. Other MMO games have done a pretty good job at making all classes good and they all bring unique stuff to the table where people aren't excluded because one class is terribly overpowered vs others. Regardless of what argument you want to make, this company has a very bad track record when it comes to class balance and making sure each will be useful in endgame content, I hope that jobs will bridge the gap while being able to bring unique mechanics.


I think the line of thought of "you can be all classes, level the flavor of the month class, ya fucking newb." is going to be the doom of any class growth.

[Jamison]

But imo, you shouldn't have to rank up both mages or multiple DoW jobs to be the best at your <insert main class here>. Your main class should be strong in its own right, with other classes boosting your output just enough to make a difference.

A well-written post, but it does sound like they intend for classes to continue to be this mixing-pot of cross-class skills where everyone gets a bit of everything. The specialization that we want will come in the form of jobs, and hopefully they'll each shine in their own way.

I also hope that this is a way that a "casual" player who really can't be leveling 3-5 classes to 50 still has a bit of power on their single r50 job, which by definition should cut out some (much? all?) of the need to cross-class. I've no problem when someone who has the time and ability to rank every class to 50 having a lot of power in the game, but I don't like when it becomes a requirement to get missions/raids/anything done.

[Hyan]

If a casual can't be leveling 3-5 classes to 50 they should make it so this is possible.

It's not too far off as it is, really. Unless by casual you mean "two hours on weekends", in which case lol.

[Gadritan]

"should be" is what got rid of the old development team and what changed this game into what it is today.

Ya, no shit Sherlock. There's a thing called context.

Has nothing to do with people "only wanting to level one class" that argument is poor at best, the point is why have classes that are going to be completely useless? Lets just have 4 classes if we're going to do that, 1 magic DD, 1 melee, 1 tank, 1 healer...I think the line of thought of "you can be all classes, level the flavor of the month class, ya fucking newb." is going to be the doom of any class growth.

^ Ding. We's got a winnar.

[Spider-Dan]

Gadritan beat me to it: the only real difference between CON and THM was cone vs. radial. Everything else boiled down to slightly less-effective/longer recasts on cross-class abilities (but still more-than-good-enough). 2007 WHM/x vs. RDM/WHM is like a humongous chasm of difference compared to 1.17 CON vs. THM.

As for the analysis on speccing: presuming for the sake of argument that all your selections were fully agreed upon by the community, (edit: 18, your math was off) action points to individualize your character after ensuring that you already have all the tools to compete with anyone else is like, a minor miracle? In FFXI, this would be the equivalent of getting Berserk, Aggressor, Focus, Sneak Attack, Feint, Cure4, Refresh, Stun, Sentinel, Souleater, Mazurka, Utsusemi, [DW or Hasso], Meditate, Overwhelm, and Super Jump, then complaining because you can only pick six more abilities.

[Grey Jorildyn]

Well kinda, but under the same presumption my overarching argument was that you aren't individualizing your character at all. You're just achieving the status quo. It's not a complaint so much as pointing out how the system's intended outcome (customize your own class) doesn't match with its actual outcome whatsoever (everyone uses the same abilities; customization is a pipe dream).

[Spider-Dan]

Has nothing to do with people "only wanting to level one class" that argument is poor at best, the point is why have classes that are going to be completely useless?

Setting aside the ARC dynamic for the moment (ranged vs. melee has very little to do with the abilities you equip), how does giving LNC/PGL/MRD access to (almost) all of the same abilities make them "useless"? (Unless that's not what you're saying.)

The actual result was that all DD classes (save ARC, for different reasons*) were pretty damn close to equal, and it didn't particularly matter what class you came as, because they could all spam the same WSes (for the most part). The only thing to balance was, say, Chaos Thrust vs. Simian Thrash vs. Quick Nock. And in creating such a system, the end outcome was that people bitched and moaned about "individuality."

*ARC's main advantage is in current boss battle design; if SE didn't make the tough mobs use radial AoE, or have them surrounded by aggressive, respawning trash mobs, ARC would enjoy no special benefit from being able to attack at range.

[Spider-Dan]

Well kinda, but under the same presumption my overarching argument was that you aren't individualizing your character at all. You're just achieving the status quo. It's not a complaint so much as pointing out how the system's intended outcome (customize your own class) doesn't match with its actual outcome whatsoever (everyone uses the same abilities; customization is a pipe dream).

And my point is that you can simulate an 2006 DRG/WAR if you so desire, and also simulate the part where you sit in town unwanted.

A system that allows you to use virtually all abilities does not limit customization; it allows you to actually to continue to use your desired class within the framework of the playerbase. You're essentially claiming that if a 2007 THF could somehow equip nearly-full-strength DW, Asuran, and Bergressor, giving up his own inferior abilities to do so reduces his range of choice (as opposed to his original choice of "switch jobs or stay in town"). That's insane.

[Grey Jorildyn]

I don't believe I said it limits customization, only that said customization isn't actually real. Everyone will choose the "best" abilities to equip and so when that happens, everyone's the same.

When you say I am claiming that if 2007 THF could etc etc. that example does not support what I am saying, nor your argument that I am stating it is limiting customization. What your example does claim, and I do support, is that it takes away class identity. The only identity we really have in the current class environment is the weapon we wield. A Marauder, Lancer, or Pugilist trying to "maximize DPS" will likely equip the same abilities, regardless of if they are the ones I listed above or not. There is a best way to do it, and when it comes down to "doing it with Hora" or "doing it with an Axe", that doesn't really flesh out classes at all. It's just paper or plastic at that point, and that's more-or-less what we have now.

[Spider-Dan]

What your example does claim, and I do support, is that it takes away class identity. The only identity we really have in the current class environment is the weapon we wield.

Well, yes, that and other things like backstory, which I'm sure nobody cares about.

My point is, better to have a game where the class identity is in lore and storyline (things that will not affect whether or not you are welcome to participate) than in battle performance. And if you want to term that as "one tank class, one DD class, one healer class, one nuker class," so be it.

Cliff notes: there should be roles, not role-defined classes. At least, that was the original vision for this game, but it seems like the playerbase has rejected such an idea.

[Lucavi]

As for the analysis on speccing: presuming for the sake of argument that all your selections were fully agreed upon by the community, (edit: 18, your math was off) action points to individualize your character after ensuring that you already have all the tools to compete with anyone else is like, a minor miracle? In FFXI, this would be the equivalent of getting Berserk, Aggressor, Focus, Sneak Attack, Feint, Cure4, Refresh, Stun, Sentinel, Souleater, Mazurka, Utsusemi, [DW or Hasso], Meditate, Overwhelm, and Super Jump, then complaining because you can only pick six more abilities.

A fair point, if you're only comparing the front-line melee jobs. You throw Archer in there, give the ability to do all of those same moves from the back row, thus avoiding all of the mob's TP attacks (AOE/conal/ect.) and all of the stupid game's shitty detection issues ("I sidestepped 3 seconds before he started the move and I still got hit, dammit"). You don't have as large of a problem with that in other MMOs because they're actually built around having a slew of different types of people beating the shit out of the mob. While yes, to an extent, ranged attackers typically always have an advantage of not having to move around a lot (except WoW during Cata or vanilla - have a hunter not move during Saurfang heroic and watch the fun!), typically its offset by having the frontlines able to do more damage if they can actually manage to sit still and wail away for awhile.

We haven't seen that in XIV yet, and for years we didn't see it in XI save for with heavy usage (IE: crutch-based-reliance) on shadows to blink away all the damage that would have been done. With no Utsu in XIV, what are you seeing now that the first dungeons are finally available? Surprise! Nothing but ranged!

All that freedom that they're allowing melee classes to fool around with means nothing if they can't clean up the game's shitty engine and physics to the point where melees can actually reliably dodge moves or at least mitigate some of the damage. As of right now, there's simply no reason to have a non-tanking front-line warrior. Absolutely no reason at all, especially when the game basically hypes up the "clear it faster for bonus bux!" mantra.