Comments from the Devs

[Jamison]

In FFXI, ammo was expensive and (somewhat) justified the high damage output. I'd much rather see ARC at the low end of the damage scale. Then the choice for players would be "do you want to kill it quickly" or "do you want to kill it safely".


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[Grey Jorildyn]

I don't think the cost of ammo should ever be factored into the damage output a class can do.

[Spider-Dan]

How do you determine equality?

I don't know, how did people determine that MNK/WAR/NIN were more desirable than everyone else in early TAU?

A redmage can function as a healer on xi, outlast most mages, but just doesn't have the same exact potentials as a whitemage.

...which is why RDM was widely preferred over WHM for significant chunks of the game's content (read: meriting, for practically the entire LV75 era)?

Hardly a good example to pick on your part.

It is a point that flavorless game, is flavorless. You want equality - I never once said anything about equality in that sense. I have no issues committing to a class path. I don't feel the desire to do everything just as good as absolutely any class on the game. That makes for a very boring playstyle, especially in a game that pretty much caters already to switching jobs/classes.

Then don't level other classes?

If you really didn't feel the desire to be bigger-faster-stronger, that would immediately solve every one of your complaints. In fact, that's literally what you are asking for: you want a limit on cross-class utilization to be enforced on other people so that you can restrict yourself to the abilities of one class (more or less) and still remain competitive.

[Lucavi]

Ranged vs. non-ranged has strictly to do with mob/specific-battle design, not class design. It's outside of the scope of specialist vs. multiclass.

I understand that, however I'd argue that you aren't going to have one balanced without the other, especially not in any MMO SE touches. Do we also know how damage formulas work in this game? Is there going to be another dual-wield vs. 2-handed shitstorm? Will utsu take over again?

So many shitty uncertainties.

[Corrderio]

I don't think the cost of ammo should ever be factored into the damage output a class can do.

Pretty much this. SE should have just made ammo infinite like how they did in FF12.

Sucks Yoshida said in the last letter we won't get info on class changes til about the time 1.19 goes live, really want to see what this will do to classes in the long run and how much it will change my play style. Hopefully when this happens some classes won't have to rely on actions from other classes so much.

I am hoping that they do keep some freedom. I do think classes should have a primary role they're good at, but a secondary role if needed.

[Spider-Dan]

I understand that, however I'd argue that you aren't going to have one balanced without the other, especially not in any MMO SE touches.

Specifically, what I mean when I say "it's out of scope" is that it is a problem that will require a solution at the level of either a specific battle, or ARC itself.

Specialist vs. multiclass has nothing to do with the advantages of fighting at range vs. fighting up close.

[dfdfpp]

All the classes can use the other classes' abilities: "Why does x class get to use MY y?"
All the classes have different unique abilities: "Why don't we have x class' y?"

Also, what's with the Utsusemi hate? People figuring out the "canceling" technique opened up several jobs to become primary tanks for level cap content. It increased melee job representation in both HNM content and leveling in a game where melee jobs were the vast majority anyway, and XP parties went from thousands to tens of thousands per hour. I always felt like the hate was from people who just didn't want to benefit from it, because the ONLY PROPER WAY IS TO HIT MY FULL KOENIG PLD/WAR IN THE FACE, and the opinions of those kinds of people don't actually matter.

[Gokulo]

Also, what's with the Utsusemi hate? People figuring out the "canceling" technique opened up several jobs to become primary tanks for level cap content. It increased melee job representation in both HNM content and leveling in a game where melee jobs were the vast majority anyway, and XP parties went from thousands to tens of thousands per hour. I always felt like the hate was from people who just didn't want to benefit from it, because the ONLY PROPER WAY IS TO HIT MY FULL KOENIG PLD/WAR IN THE FACE, and the opinions of those kinds of people don't actually matter.

Because it was a stupid idea. Yes, it made stuff easier, but it was stupid and streamlined almost everything. It's not a good design if /nin sub is an answer to almost everything.

[Spider-Dan]

Utsusemi was the single biggest innovation that FFXI had to offer (and there really isn't a close second). I happen to recall that Lucavi, in particular, had an all-encompassing hate for /NIN, but (in general) /NIN hating was one of the dumbest trends in FFXI history. Utsusemi singlehandedly made that game playable for a huge chunk of its lifespan.

[Thiefami]

I don't know, how did people determine that MNK/WAR/NIN were more desirable than everyone else in early TAU?

more desirable than other classes means they are equal? NIN performed a very different role from mnk and war, they weren't even in the same category. Some jobs shined better in certain events, other jobs shined in all events. Not necessarily a bad thing, but too much of that could become a problem.

Though it could be argued, at one point, that the playerbase was largely to blame for most of this. How many times have I heard "we need this, we need that" just to finally get the setup and lose. The douchebag spouting it leaves, and we go in with 5, or some random job and win totally not according to popular "strategy".

...which is why RDM was widely preferred over WHM for significant chunks of the game's content (read: meriting, for practically the entire LV75 era)?

Hardly a good example to pick on your part.

I am stating my opinion so this really isn't an argument. The example I picked was pretty on point. Redmage could not replace whitemage for a number of harder, endgame events. That is when a specialized class would come in handy. Curative specialization doesn't necessarily mean how many hit points you can heal. WHM in xi has a number of abilities that set it apart from RDM making it an ideal healer.

Then don't level other classes?

If you really didn't feel the desire to be bigger-faster-stronger, that would immediately solve every one of your complaints. In fact, that's literally what you are asking for: you want a limit on cross-class utilization to be enforced on other people so that you can restrict yourself to the abilities of one class (more or less) and still remain competitive.

I did not have a complaint really, was just opining on your opinion. It's a forum.

I think your last paragraph is stretching, but for the record...

There will be a limit on cross - class utilization, as there already is. Jobs will be for specializations. I am not the only one who apparently thought everyone having the same skills/like-skills made for a boring game.

For some reason I suspect they will be over done, and will be used in abundance in all events because of their superiority. Just an opinion - I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

Also, in a game where you can switch classes/jobs at any point it still makes for a very moot argument.

Cross utilize whatever you like, when you need to specialize switch to a job. A player can still be infinitely more useful than me because they leveled every single job/class. It happened on XI, i was not threatened.

[dfdfpp]

The problem I have with the "/NIN became the answer for almost everything" argument is that with a lack of /NIN, /THF would have been the support job for everything (or something else), and we would have /THF (or something else) whiners instead.

Except /THF didn't enable PLD and RDM tanks, or equalize previously non-dual wield jobs, or HNM melee burns, or increase the "average" xp party speed by an factor of 5-10, etc., etc., etc. Nor did it involve people coming upon the simple and elegant idea of canceling a buff to mimic seamlessly overwriting a weaker one. We'd just have the same amount of whining and miss out on the neat stuff it brought to the game. Hell, with our lack of understanding of game mechanics, we didn't even know Utsusemi was doing half of this shit until a whole expansion later, so all of the whining was a whole S-E expansion (read, years) late anyway. Ha, ha-ha.

Admittedly, I think that the more-or-less equivalent /SAM during ToAU (?) came a little late for all intents and purposes and did similar things on a lesser scale, but if it had been first the whining would have been about that anyway.

[Corrderio]

Well Yoshida said nothing about a SJ system, so we don't need to deal with a headache like that again.

[Lordender]

I understand that, however I'd argue that you aren't going to have one balanced without the other, especially not in any MMO SE touches. Do we also know how damage formulas work in this game? Is there going to be another dual-wield vs. 2-handed shitstorm? Will utsu take over again?

So many shitty uncertainties.

The tp system is what is going to fuck the classes once again just like in XI, when are people going to ever realize that it doesn't even matter that you can "side step" tp moves as a melee if you can just be out of range pew pewing and not have to stop DPS when you can have ranged DD just mindlessly plug away while completely avoiding components of an encounter.

Are we going to end up seeing melee be nothing more than glorified trash mob killers because those TP moves aren't devastating and take a backseat when it comes time to play with a boss where its tp moves will easily wipe you? Balance around the TP system is the real determining factor in what classes are going to be accepted. Until there is more to boss fights in XIV that revolve around more than just them spamming tp moves then the class system is going to always be extremely limited, artificial and players are going to continue to be pidgeonheld into certain classes.

Some people play their melee jobs very well, they do what they're supposed to do by not being an mp sponge, I get that but it still doesn't address the major problem at hand.

[YukonWildAss]

I wish there was a "Comments from the Devs" thread and a "Discuss Comments from the Devs" thread, stuff gets lost in the fray here so quickly.

[Hyan]

Hm, I've been slacking with the OP indeed. I'll start updating it soon again, although not all comments really warrant being included..

The tp system is what is going to fuck the classes once again just like in XI, when are people going to ever realize that it doesn't even matter that you can "side step" tp moves as a melee if you can just be out of range pew pewing and not have to stop DPS when you can have ranged DD just mindlessly plug away while completely avoiding components of an encounter.

Unless ranged DD is no longer a potent enough form of DPS.

[Grey Jorildyn]

Utsusemi singlehandedly made that game playable for a huge chunk of its lifespan.

Which is precisely why I fucking hate Utsusemi (and I was a PLD and NIN main tank for my LS). There should never be a single ability/spell that if removed from the game makes it unplayable. Balance-wise, there should never be an ability/spell that can negate any directed damage as often and consistently as Utsusemi did. It was pretty dumb.

[Hyan]

Doubtful that removing utsusemi would have made the game 'unplayable' from a game mechanics pov. Most certainly would have limited our options though, and I'm sure that's enough the make it hard to bear for some.

I'd say haste was the main culprit. It helped in making utsu OP along with everything else.

[Gadritan]

Well Yoshida said nothing about a SJ system, so we don't need to deal with a headache like that again.

Eh? Cross-class is the exact same thing atm, just more annoying and time consuming since you need to cap out classes to get the 1-2 really good abilities from them.

[Spider-Dan]

No, SJ system is more insidious in other ways; specifically, the playerbase's insistence that SJs be leveled to the cap (even though you gain very little of value from doing so). I, personally, have noticed that leveling "subclasses" seems much less tedious when I know that I'm aiming to get a specific ability (and then stop), as opposed to wanting Berserk (which is WAR15) for my RNG, but then having to level WAR to 37 just to fit in.

[Gadritan]

Uh, no. The tier I versions of the abilities are poop. To get the useful ones, you need the tier IIs, which are so close to cap you may as well finish the job. Taking a job to 37 was less tedious and time consuming than taking a class to 40+. Mind you, grinding and ranking up atm is pretty terrible and bland. I'm not sure how you can compare the two with a straight face. Maybe when more alternatives and variety are added you'll have a point, but till then, just no.

I guess the one saving grace for it would be having another class ranked up and ready to use if it becomes the flavor of the month after adjustments.