Comments from the Devs

[Spider-Dan]

So everybody can clear everything with the trade off of the game having no substantial challenges? Sounds fun.

I guess if you define "fun" as "putting your progression on hold while you pray to the loot table gods," sure.

[Toth]

I wonder if Yoshi is going to address DQX Online soon. That's going to take a chunk of 14's JPN player base.

[Hyan]

Me thinks he doesn't understand how a "gear check" encounter works.

Well, fortunately what I 'don't seem to get' was properly explained in a non-trollish fashion here so it's all good.

I do understand what it means though. And no, I don't give a damn whether some difficulty is lost there. The fools thinking that MMO gameplay is somehow srs business are the plague of the genre.

[Alkar]

I wonder if Yoshi is going to address DQX Online soon. That's going to take a chunk of 14's JPN player base.

I doubt he will, it's a Wii game. FF and DQ coexist in Japan just fine.

[Celeras]

And no, I don't give a damn whether some difficulty is lost there. The fools thinking that MMO gameplay is somehow srs business are the plague of the genre.

Thanks for summing up your retardation so eloquently. We're talking about the genre dedicated to groups of people collectively overcoming challenges, and you want to remove the challenge. Nothing else needs to be said.

[Hyan]

Thanks for summing up your retardation so eloquently. We're talking about the genre dedicated to groups of people collectively overcoming challenges, and you want to remove the challenge. Nothing else needs to be said.

'Challenge is not relative'
-Celeras

And to explain a bit further, I am taking a stand against offering everything these games have for the altar of Challenge. Even FFXI was 'challenging' to many people, so talking as if it was something set in stone is retarded.

[Tomino]

There is one thing that worked quite nicely in 11 concerning challenge/gearcheck issues:
What you couldn't affor in terms of gear or skills, you could often compensate in terms of people.

If you think of it, aside elitist talks, it really helped LSes to work their way out around certain difficult events or HNMs. I remember huge shells throwing people at Jormy, while others prefered to dedicate on low-men strats.
It's something not applicabile in WoW (and maybe, not even in FF14) but I think it stills help creating challenging content without making it gearcheck based.

[Hyan]

It's easier to control everything- equipment, party setups, # of people, etc. But why? Most people prefer easy games over Bayonettas. And it's not like there are no benefits here.

It's the mindset that MMO's should be taken 'seriously'. LOL.

[Grey Jorildyn]

Throwing bodies at shit is retarded.

[Lucavi]

Never got that feeling in any major MMO encounter outside of XI, unless you want to call closing a rift a major MMO encounter. Go figure that I have more fun on gearcheck fights than most others (Patchwerk was hilarious fun, especially when bringing new tanks to the fight for "initiations").

[Lordender]

Never going to be gear checks in an SE MMO, it'll be job/class checks, come as the flavor of the month or in this case, flavor of the year DD or get left out of all meaningful group content.

[Kurokikaze]

Never got that feeling in any major MMO encounter outside of XI, unless you want to call closing a rift a major MMO encounter. Go figure that I have more fun on gearcheck fights than most others (Patchwerk was hilarious fun, especially when bringing new tanks to the fight for "initiations").

rofl yeah. Patchwerk used to be the PUG-ender back in the days. Him and that dude that had the dance. Forgot name. Fight was easy but all the noobs would die on the first dance transition. lol

Or how about not very good/well geared healers on Chimaeron.

[Tomino]

Throwing bodies at shit is retarded.

Adding more people doesnt really mean you're "throwing bodies at shit", more that you're free to fill the gap of your gear with other players. Which should be kinda allowed since we're talking of something Massively Multiplayer.
It was nice to have Dynamis cleared by either 12 people or a less skilled group of 22. Sure thing, you'd had been better rewarded in going with less people, which is also a good thing because it should always be skill=reward, instead of the dullest of all system timesink=reward.

On gearcheck fights I too have mixed feelings. Content should come as a constant, accessible flow.
For example, all the equip obtained while questing to rank50 should be enough to access and clear r50 raids. Which would also be an incentive to go and do those nice quests.
But anything involving reputation grind / gear droprates / dailies just so you can access new content isn't really what I'd be wishing for.

[Kurokikaze]

Gonna explain it for the newbies...

A gear check encounter is boss in the same instance who's stats are much higher than the previous ones. Requiring that you're nearly capped out on gear from previous bosses or that you change up your strategy. This of course requires for stats to be meaningful and for stats on gear to be really really good. The gear check encounter sets the bar for future bosses in that same instance a little higher up until the last boss which of course is another gear check so to speak.

No you wont be farming 1 boss for 1-2 people because they need to get up to speed. They call that a "carry" for a reason.

That said, I'm inclined to agree with Lordender... we won't see gear checks in this game. We'll see three classes/job dominating end game - kinda like how it is now: THM/CON/ARC.

[Tomino]

We'll see three classes/job dominating end game - kinda like how it is now: THM/CON/ARC.

This would certainly be an "acceptable" grind bait because it'd force players to keep grinding jobs as they become popular/useful.

But I still hope they'd somehow stick to the FF11 formula : content that can be cleared with 3 specific jobs can also be done with a balanced party of 6. I'm mostly referring to Assault days.
In FF14 terms, it could be that r50 raids can either be done with a perfect setup of 5 OR a balanced setup of 8 members. Having encounters tuned on a specific set of 8 classes would be pretty sad.

[Kurokikaze]

This would certainly be an "acceptable" grind bait because it'd force players to keep grinding jobs as they become popular/useful.

I'm sorry if this comes off a little mean but... that's the dumbest shit I've ever heard. Every class should be able to pull their weight and shine in end game.

[Tomino]

I was actually referring to the difference of having a game with single character and multiple classes, opposed to one class per character (WoW).

In WoW, you can't make one class useless or this will cause the usual nerdrage seen many times in the past. This is simply not acceptable.
In FF11, you could still have the "flavour of the year" job, simply because any elistist was allowed to go and level that job for epeen/content purposes. Or you could just stick with your fav jobs and be one step behind but still one happy player.

So I do agree than each class should be worth a slot endgame, but you'll always have boss mechanics/math/class design getting in the way and putting one class as vastly superior. Until it's nerfed of course.
To achieve a perfect, flawless class balance is something pretty hard.

[Lucavi]

This would certainly be an "acceptable" grind bait because it'd force players to keep grinding jobs as they become popular/useful.

What the hell are you smoking? You're basically saying that the days of axe and arrowburns were "acceptable" grinds because it forced people to grind those jobs? Seriously? You want your entire playerbase shunning all but Warrior, Ranger, Bard, Ninja and Red Mage? For years? That's "acceptable"? You think the non-flavor classes back in 04' were "happy" to sit in town for hours LFGing? Seriously? I don't even have to touch your boss mechanics statement considering that XI had no boss mechanics outside of "blink said damage away" for better than half a decade.

Good God, SE sure has the best fans in the world. I'm almost sorry they aren't making more money off of their MMOs.

[Grey Jorildyn]

Good God, SE sure has the best fans in the world. I'm almost sorry they aren't making more money off of their MMOs.

For real.

The last page and a half of this thread has been a 'what is this I don't even' for me.

[Tomino]

You're basically saying that the days of axe and arrowburns were "acceptable" grinds because it forced people to grind those jobs?

First, notice the "acceptable" i wrote with quotation mark. It was meant as an exaggeration, but I see everyone just jumped on that.
Also, I wrote - grind bait - which isnt exactly something I'd define as great, groundbreaking design.

FFXI purposely never fixed jobs balance (maybe only after months and months of a certain job dominance) because it was a perfect way to have people keep grindind.
I am in no way *defending* this stance, I just wrote that it was a grind bait and, of all grind baits, I still find it better than fucking WoW dailies to cap certain reputations.

We can all hope this game won't have grind baits. And a perfect class balance.

I don't even have to touch your boss mechanics statement considering that XI had no boss mechanics outside of "blink said damage away" for better than half a decade.

Dunno why you're trying so hard, but I'll answer anyway.
Anything you design for a boss encounter will eventually favor certain game mechanics and so favor the class that's most strong in said mechanics. This is something plaguign WoW since years and I don't see how one could solve the matter without making all classes the same, which would still favor ranged classes whenever you insert "conal breaths", "boss swipes" or anything like that.