Comments from the Devs

[Spider-Dan]

Except the part where you Can't change while you're already engaged.

Well played, sir! You also can't change classes while dead. Or while zoning. Or during cutscenes. Or if you don't have that weapon on you!

Seriously, if this was your genuine, sincere rebuttal, you're in over your head. The point of "you can change classes at will" is that with any small difference in performance, players can simply switch weapons (but not while engaged!!!!) and immediately benefit.

In a game with fixed classes, small differences in performance are more likely to be tolerated. There's a huge difference between creating a new character and managing all the other details (crafting skills, faction standings, quest unlocks) on another character (and then relogging and traveling) every time you want to switch classes, vs. going to your gear screen and simply changing which weapon you have equipped (but not while engaged!!!!).

[Spider-Dan]

SE essentially gives you the backhand by laying out a class system where you can be anything at any time and they adjust classes to be flavor of the month. If your class suddenly sucks, they're not under any pressure whatsoever to fix it. The DPS discrepency between ARC and every other melee is admittedly retarded. The gap is huge and if this was a WoW-esque game, the official forums would be lit up like a christmas tree in rockefeller center with players bitching until they patched the shit out of the game again.

In this game, SE could have fixed this balance issue by simply unlocking Multishot and Trifurcate for other classes, and making them work as double/triple attack.

Unfortunately, such a solution would undoubtedly result in much wailing and gnashing of teeth, because while that would certainly fix balance, now it's just another bullet point on the "everyone is all the same!" bitch list.

[Grey Jorildyn]

Well the problem is two-fold and both sides of the argument for both points have already been argued back and forth in this thread over and over and over and over...

But which issue is bigger?
1. Archer's DPS is way higher than every other class ...or...
2. Ranged DPS is superior on all account in the 1 end game event currently implemented.

We can fix #1 about a hundred different ways. That's easy. #2 can't be fixed in the current dungeon and will be talked about until SE releases new content that shuns ranged damage but somehow still keeps mages out of harms way (SE has never figured this out, but players have using elevation tricks). Personally I like falling platforms, encroaching lava, and environmental hazards that force ranged players to come on into the battle. Again though, there's a hundred different ways to solve this problem. The question is "will they?", followed by "when will they?". Or, worst case scenario, "do they plan to?".

[Spider-Dan]

But which issue is bigger?
1. Archer's DPS is way higher than every other class ...or...
2. Ranged DPS is superior on all account in the 1 end game event currently implemented.

We can fix #1 about a hundred different ways. That's easy. #2 can't be fixed in the current dungeon and will be talked about until SE releases new content that shuns ranged damage but somehow still keeps mages out of harms way (SE has never figured this out, but players have using elevation tricks).

I agree that #1 is easily resolved. As for #2, SE has shown (historically) that they have no problems whatsoever creating encounters that are designed to marginalize ranged attackers; in this game, it'll be even easier than in XI, since piercing and projectile are different weapon types.

It's pretty ridiculous to demand class-rebalancing on an event-by-event basis. If Ifrit has an arrow shield ability, does that mean ARC is immediately broken and needs a major buff? I mean, come on.

Oh, and when it comes to Batraal, ARC's damage output (as it relates to balance) is a red herring. Even if ARC and LNC/PGL/MRD dealt exactly the same damage, everyone would still prefer ARC because of the mechanics of the fight. The game is not broken because there's a fight that favors one particular DD, even if that fight is the one that's really popular right now.

[Grey Jorildyn]

I agree with you. SE designs encounters to be performed best by certain classes. We can look at XI's encounters and see the nearly every class had its day in the run at some point. I am just not sure that with all the "modern MMO" sentimentality that circulates around this community, and I strongly feel it is well-warranted in many respects, that everyone will put up with that for the life of this game. It's a "big deal' right now because the end game environment is so shallow and thus any perceived problems with the [one] event stick out like a sore thumb.

It's funny you should bring up the piercing vs. projectile damage differentiation in this argument because just the other night I pointed out the same thing you did on my teamspeak. I further commented that I would really dislike SE taking an extreme measure to deal with this like they did with souleater damage resistance. That in itself is an extreme example of course, and I doubt they would swerve anywhere near that train of thought to bring one basic damage type in line with the rest.

Archer itself does require adjustments, even outside the Batraal fight. You had mentioned before that you would like an example outside of the dungeon where Archer has an advantage. I'll give you one now--levequests and speed of completion. Because Archers can deal so much DPS, and their mechanics allow them to execute an initial, unmissable, burst of damage at a monster every 15-30s (depending on patience), Archers take greater advantage of speed of completion on higher-star levequests. I have first hand experience with this on one of our favorite (read: most hated) levequests "Restless be Damned". I'll be damned if that leve isn't retardedly hard at higher difficulty settings on front-line melee classes, but is a veritable piece of cake on Archer because of distance mechanics and huge opening multishot damage. Sure, it's a minor example, but it's one nonetheless. When you've got 5minutes to complete a leve for the bonus SP, Archer overshadows every other class in that category too.

[Celeras]

Even if ARC and LNC/PGL/MRD dealt exactly the same damage, everyone would still prefer ARC because of the mechanics of the fight.

Except that there have been other fights in the game, easy though they may be. And during this time pre-auto attack, when things were a little bit closer damage wise, you needed/wanted: LNC for Twisting Vice/Surge/Comrade, MRD for Maim and all the other melees to assist breaking body parts. Stacking ARCs would have been a hindrance if you were trying to min/max damage, even if it was still effective due to how easy everything was.

Batraal's mechanics don't really effect melee at all, so cut the red-herring shit. If they were remotely CLOSE to Arc's damage wise, they'd be a part of a min/max group. Alas: Twisting vice was nerfed, dungeons completely fore-go directional attacks, BRs are terrible with Arcs since they're now the only class idling with something queued, and Arcs double other melee damage. Balance IS the problem.

[Alkar]

Mages weren't balanced before 1.18. Thaumaturge was the only mage class in the game.

[Lucavi]

Tell me, how is the balance completely broken in any zone outside of Darkhold?

There is only one endgame dungeon implemented, and in that particular dungeon, the end boss is not melee-friendly! But oh no, every class has to be useful in every dungeon, because otherwise that is bad balance! And of course, none of the other endgame stuff counts because... well, I already have that stuff! So now, in this extended beta test, we are officially in the phase of "classes that are good for the latest content release are the only classes that count, even though it's all R50".

I don't like to say this, especially to you, but you're being stupid. You look at it as "the sample size is too small to conclude~!!" with a snarky tone. I look at it as "Fuck the sample size, because its SE's fault that the sample size is so small. Looking at what SE has given us, the jobs are imbalanced."

I'm a realist. I don't make excuses for why things are the way they are. The game, based on what's available to us currently, has a pretty heavy imbalance. You compare this to SE's previous MMO and things start making sense.

That we're even talking about balance in such a shitty game is somewhat humorous, but it is what it is.

Edit: I see others have already handled it. You make it seem like its the player's fault for wanting a more balanced game this time around, especially in what little end-game SE has given us, nearly a year since launch.

[Lordender]

in b4 shitty proc systems in XIV that require certain weapons that have to be done by that weapon and not just setting the ws on action point grid to make all classes useful meaning you have to bring all classes since you can't switch jobs in mid combat.

[Corrderio]

Mages weren't balanced before 1.18. Thaumaturge was the only mage class in the game.

And now we have it where GLA and ARC are the only DoWs in the game.

Lucavi is right though. The b]only[/b] content to come out from the game since NMs is horribly imbalanced. Even then I've heard people stlll only prefer using Archers for most of the NMs. Especially for Great Buffalo and Uraeus.

[Grey Jorildyn]

Well... as someone who still does the NMs regularly for +3 weapon attempts, that's just kinda lazy. I take anywhere from 3-5 max out to those NMs. Buffalo is particularly easy since dots usually sauce him before we break both horns. Heck, lancers can take 0 damage the whole fight since they can auto attack from their max distance. Damage is easily controlled with a hawk's eye+flashfreeze rotation, siphon tp, and stun/pacification counters. Uraeus is a big pushover too when you lockdown his tp with siphon, moonrise, and constraint BR. Anyone just spamming away at the NMs wouldn't know those things. Less is more and SE seems to like that formula for a lot of things. The NMs are certainly no exception.

[Corrderio]

Sadly, I haven't found any shells like that on Trabia. Then again most of the playerbase on any server has mindsets such as not using BRs so it's not surprising.

Either way, what worries me is that players are already in the "take the class, not the player" mindset and we're still left in the dark with Yoshida's view on classes. And how they'll respond if it happens again. Will they fix it within a month or will they take their sweet ass time and wait about a year or two before finally fixing it?

[Hyan]

Thinking it really matters that at this point in time, there is imbalance in the raids is you being a dumbass. Simple as that.

[Corrderio]

Thinking it really matters that at this point in time, there is imbalance in the raids is you being a dumbass. Simple as that.

While this is true, you can't fix stupid players. They'll just go the cookie cutter path and stay that way. And let's face it, most of the XIV playerbase fits in that category.

[Grey Jorildyn]

In certain party setups BRs are a waste of time. When you take a very small team to do something though, you tend to utilize every tool in your bag as your responsibilities are that much more important.

When you know what you're doing and what you're fighting and have a fairly static group, you can do some pretty amazing things in any mmo. Teamwork is tops.

Also, we all know SE is never in any rush to work on any semblance of what might be job/class balance. They'd rather pour time and energy into new content that just caters to a different set of jobs than the last.

[Hyan]

While this is true, you can't fix stupid players. They'll just go the cookie cutter path and stay that way, and let's face it, most of the XIV playerbase fits in that category.

That's not what I mean.

The game was released, but to the overwhelming majority of people, and to SE themselves, it doesn't matter. The only time it will start to matter is when SE attempts to relaunch the game. Before that, any status quo is simply irrelevant. In good and in bad, nobody gives a shit.

Therefore it is retarded as all fuck to look at the current situation like it has any relevance. The tiny number of people that give a damn might actually care about what we have right here and now, but can you give me one reason why SE or anyone else should give a damn about what they think? Especially considering the game probably won't get worse, and they have been hanging around from the beginning. There's no way the majority of them will leave now if they haven't left before.

If you look at the current situation as having more relevance as the future (that SE is actually working towards), that is not you being a realist. That is you being a Lucavi.

Don't be Lucavi.

And if somebody honestly thinks that the damage algorithm/stat changes, class action redistribution and job system won't change the situation in any shape or form, well, that's rather unlikely. Something will change.

[Corrderio]

Fair enough I suppose. I do know stuff will change with the relaunch, I'm just worried if Yoshida will be aware of stuff like this when the time comes is all. Maybe I'm just paranoid from having Tanaka not give a fuck about stuff like that when he ran XI back in the day?

[Spider-Dan]

Mages weren't balanced before 1.18. Thaumaturge was the only mage class in the game.

Pre-1.18 Conjurer would drop nuclear bombs on any mage currently in this game.

This is the kind of stuff I'm talking about. Pre-1.18 CON was extremely effective and could do almost literally everything THM could (on slightly longer recasts), but because they weren't exactly the same, naturally CON "sucks" and is "useless."

[Hyan]

Tanaka would give a fuck if he had to.

The problem with XI was that the playerbase gave them too much leeway on some things (not the only problem, but it sure as hell was a factor). Right now, though, they're under tremendous pressure to make the game more appealing. It's a complete 180 and it is for the best.

Really, so far they've done a decent enough job with the design direction. I'd be more worried about the competency of their programmers if anything.

[Spider-Dan]

I don't like to say this, especially to you, but you're being stupid. You look at it as "the sample size is too small to conclude~!!" with a snarky tone. I look at it as "Fuck the sample size, because its SE's fault that the sample size is so small. Looking at what SE has given us, the jobs are imbalanced."

You are evaluating Darkhold as someone who has already completed all other R50 content. Therefore, every new event that is released immediately becomes The Only Thing That Matters. By attaching such monumental significance to each event as it is added, you are essentially requiring that SE make every event equally suited to every job... because if it isn't (like, say, now), then any job that isn't good at that particular event is Useless and we need a patch.

Within the framework of the R50 content currently in the game, ranged vs. melee is not a significant factor. If SE had released Darkhold last December and HNMs last month, your "problem" would be solved.