Comments from the Devs

[Hioki]

Why does it matter that there will be obscenely rich players dispersing capital into the empty economy of new servers? Seriously... I have yet to hear of the terrible fate that will befall us if it is allowed to occur.

Relic Weapons. You know there is some serious plan where all you need is a base, a couple fragments and a ton of gil to get a weapon. BG will make a thread for these weapons. The page will be filled of pictures from all these users making a weapon which was meant to be a 2-3 year grind no more than a couple weeks. At which point everyone will have them and not having one makes a person lesser because they cannot conform to "get a relic/emp/mythic or quit". All the while the thread will grow and grow like a cancer eventually becoming so large that it engulfs the entirety of bg.

The cancer begins to eat away at the true purpose of BG. Facts and testing give way to speculation and assumptions which then give way to spotty-at-best beliefs and finally religion. All the while this cancer grows from dining on all the enjoyable number games our fore-posters worked for. Then a seed of anger moves within the cancer. It worms and weaves it's way to a crack in this cancer. Clawing it's way to glorious freedom. It escapes!

The forum posters stare in awe as the miserable pile of flesh lays before them. Their natural fear and curiosity keeps them bound to the area for minutes before the seed begins to make movements. A loud bang comes from the object and they scatter to the basements and flats of their parents except one. They walk slowly toward the crippled object as if understanding the purpose of the cancer's creation. The mouth of the creature opens taking in gasps of air. The person stands over the creature and moves his arm forward gently. "Hello son... Do you know who I am?" the person speaks calmly yet sternly. The seed cries out at the sight of his face. It soon gains composure as it recognizes the man before him...



















"Hyan"

[Lordender]

I keep seeing crafting being brought up about the economy but no one seems to mention that leve's were nerfed 2-3 times when it came to gil rewards. I remember when leve's gave out 40-50+k gil and that doesn't happen anymore.

[Hyan]

Cool story bro

[Hioki]

Cool story bro

Thanks! :D

[Spider-Dan]

I'm not complaining that there are extremely rich people. I'm saying that everyone currently playing played at a time when gil was about ten times easier to accumulate (for reference, I had like 2.5 million on me when I quit at 15 PGL, and all I ever did was leves and selling shards). I'm saying that with the rate at which a new player will accumulate wealth, they will be the exception. There are not a couple rich players, there is a rich population, and it makes the game extremely inaccessible to anyone new.

How does it make the game inaccessible? Why would the extremely rich veterans be competing with newbies over low rank items?

It's like arguing with the people who complain about paying 10M for a scorpion harness during XI inflation, when they don't realize that stacks of crystals were selling for 40k. Lots of rich players in the economy means there are lots of people spending money, which means there are more ways for newbies to make money.

The only objective difference is that in a new economy, paying fixed costs like NPC repair and airship travel are really much more expensive because of the scarcity of gil. It's a lot harder to make money when the only ways gil is being introduced into the economy are leves and quests... especially since leves are no longer the premiere exp source.

It was kinda exciting, I must admit as every week new gear would make it into the market as peoples crafting lvs grew.

And there's your justification.

You know what else is "exciting"? 50 people standing in a room waiting for a mob to pop.

We aren't talking about new gear, here... we're talking about old, mediocre gear finally becoming available in a stone age economy. You're fanatically cheering the arrival of Windows 98 in a third-world country.

[Priran]

How does it make the game inaccessible? Why would the extremely rich veterans be competing with newbies over low rank items?

It's like arguing with the people who complain about paying 10M for a scorpion harness during XI inflation, when they don't realize that stacks of crystals were selling for 40k. Lots of rich players in the economy means there are lots of people spending money, which means there are more ways for newbies to make money.

Christmas gil sales: Rapid, absurd inflation
FFXIV after leve reward adjustments: Next to no inflation

Your comparison sucks. What the fuck would the "stacks of crystals" be in this awful analogy? Because it's sure as fuck not shards, or anything else I've found.

You know what else is "exciting"? 50 people standing in a room waiting for a mob to pop.

We aren't talking about new gear, here... we're talking about old, mediocre gear finally becoming available in a stone age economy. You're fanatically cheering the arrival of Windows 98 in a third-world country.

You don't have to play on the stone-age server.

[Thiefami]

How does it make the game inaccessible? Why would the extremely rich veterans be competing with newbies over low rank items?

It's like arguing with the people who complain about paying 10M for a scorpion harness during XI inflation, when they don't realize that stacks of crystals were selling for 40k. Lots of rich players in the economy means there are lots of people spending money, which means there are more ways for newbies to make money.

The only objective difference is that in a new economy, paying fixed costs like NPC repair and airship travel are really much more expensive because of the scarcity of gil. It's a lot harder to make money when the only ways gil is being introduced into the economy are leves and quests... especially since leves are no longer the premiere exp source.


You know what else is "exciting"? 50 people standing in a room waiting for a mob to pop.

We aren't talking about new gear, here... we're talking about old, mediocre gear finally becoming available in a stone age economy. You're fanatically cheering the arrival of Windows 98 in a third-world country.

Its not always a good thing if you enter a server full of high levels riches with a corner on every market. As a new player the economy may be situated as such to where all of the profitable sellable mats/items etc., are actually higher level content. Then you create this catch 22 of I need money to level, but I need my levels to get money. I can definitely see this as a potential issue. Much like in days of old in ffxi, if you didn't have a craft or know of one of few ways to make gil (if you refused to buy it) you were perpetually screwed. Sure they can sell crystal or shards, but when everyone is doing it it becomes hard to move, hard to sell, and the gains are so little. Be it as it may I have it to say though on this game it's SO much easier to make gil. You may not get 35k for a guildleve anymore, but it's pretty much a risk free way to obtain it, and enough to get you to a suitable level.

I just hope Yoshi takes the same stance on economy as he did with instanced zones with his reference to "you didnt log on to play climb mountain online", people don't log on to play "welfare recipient online"

[Spider-Dan]

Christmas gil sales: Rapid, absurd inflation
FFXIV after leve reward adjustments: Next to no inflation

You forgot one...

FFXIV on brand new server: mind-blowing deflation (compared to now)

I keep asking this question and you keep dodging it, so I'll ask again: where are all the people who joined established XI servers and were raped by the unfair economy? In XI, gil was a LOT harder to earn and you didn't have the option of ranking up crafting classes for free (while getting free mats, to boot!). So why aren't you pointing to the horrible experience we all had when we started XI?

The answer is obvious: we weren't abused by XI's economy. The worst thing I could say about XI's economy (for newbies) was that I couldn't afford 350k for a pair of LV7 Leaping Boots, and that's more of a function of how good LL boots were through endgame.

Your comparison sucks. What the fuck would the "stacks of crystals" be in this awful analogy? Because it's sure as fuck not shards, or anything else I've found.

If I understand your complaint correctly, you are saying that finished items are incredibly expensive (and the demand is high enough to sustain those prices), while materials are too cheap to make a reasonable profit. Do you not understand the implications of such a claim?

In such a scenario, the correct course of action would be to level a crafting job (which, again, you can do for free in XIV) and proceed to profit extensively from the hordes of rich players who are paying high prices for items made from cheap mats. (Remember, you are claiming that even low level items are overpriced, which means that newbies shouldn't have to work very hard to get to a profitable crafting level.) The veterans' excess cash goes towards funding new and upcoming rookies. Problem solved.

Oh, and just for contrast: on a new server, you have no such opportunity to make that kind of profit because the flow of gil into the market is controlled primarily by how many leves (the extremely gil-reduced leves, mind you) the playerbase is choosing to do.

You don't have to play on the stone-age server.

This doesn't specifically affect me either way. I'm trying to make sure that arguments like yours, designed to influence the playerbase into demanding protected servers which (some) newbies will be forced on to, are being actively opposed.

You accuse me of wanting to lord my status over newbies, but I see that as projection: you missed (intentionally, or not) your window to become a plutocrat and you want to make sure you get that opportunity on a new server. There will be plutocrats either way (on the existing servers, or new ones), so why force newbies to suffer the tedious experience of a stone-age economy?

[Priran]

You forgot one...

FFXIV on brand new server: mind-blowing deflation (compared to now)

I keep asking this question and you keep dodging it, so I'll ask again: where are all the people who joined established XI servers and were raped by the unfair economy? In XI, gil was a LOT harder to earn and you didn't have the option of ranking up crafting classes for free (while getting free mats, to boot!). So why aren't you pointing to the horrible experience we all had when we started XI?

The answer is obvious: we weren't abused by XI's economy. The worst thing I could say about XI's economy (for newbies) was that I couldn't afford 350k for a pair of LV7 Leaping Boots, and that's more of a function of how good LL boots were through endgame.

I'm IGE and did you even play FFXI back when there were still new players joining?

If I understand your complaint correctly, you are saying that finished items are incredibly expensive (and the demand is high enough to sustain those prices), while materials are too cheap to make a reasonable profit. Do you not understand the implications of such a claim?

In such a scenario, the correct course of action would be to level a crafting job (which, again, you can do for free in XIV) and proceed to profit extensively from the hordes of rich players who are paying high prices for items made from cheap mats. (Remember, you are claiming that even low level items are overpriced, which means that newbies shouldn't have to work very hard to get to a profitable crafting level.) The veterans' excess cash goes towards funding new and upcoming rookies. Problem solved.

Yeah, all you have to do before you can afford to level a DoW/DoM is level a craft to 50 entirely by local leve. That's not a hostile environment for noobs at all.

What fucking planet are you from?

This doesn't specifically affect me either way. I'm trying to make sure that arguments like yours, designed to influence the playerbase into demanding protected servers which (some) newbies will be forced on to, are being actively opposed.

You're avoiding the question. Why are you making sure arguments like mine are being opposed if supposedly, the outcome wouldn't affect you?

You accuse me of wanting to lord my status over newbies, but I see that as projection: you missed (intentionally, or not) your window to become a plutocrat and you want to make sure you get that opportunity on a new server. There will be plutocrats either way (on the existing servers, or new ones), so why force newbies to suffer the tedious experience of a stone-age economy?

You got me, I intended to get rich or die trying by playing pugilist.

[Spider-Dan]

I'm IGE and did you even play FFXI back when there were still new players joining?

10/28/03.

So I guess you aren't even going to try to represent that XI's economy was a problem when you joined? Have you completely conceded the point that XI's established economy was no burden?

Yeah, all you have to do before you can afford to level a DoW/DoM is level a craft to 50 entirely by local leve.

Nice try, but I already headed off that one: you just finished claiming that low-level gear was far too expensive. Low-level gear is made by low-level crafters.

You're avoiding the question. Why are you making sure arguments like mine are being opposed if supposedly, the outcome wouldn't affect you?

Because this game will not grow by dumping newbies in a non-existent economy, where gear repairs and airship rides are a substantial investment.

The existing servers had gil flowing into the economy when 1) leves were the best way of gaining exp and 2) leves gave out massive amounts of gil. Neither of those things are true now. New XIV players would suffer an experience that, if not directly worse than what we suffered, is hardly an improvement. And new players (and game reviewers) having a horrible experience and quitting/bashing the game again affects me quite a bit.

You got me, I intended to get rich or die trying by playing pugilist.

Am I to believe that you personally don't intend on profiting from rerolling on a new server? What, exactly, is your supposed motive for such a move, outside of getting a jump on all of the newbies?

[Priran]

10/28/03.

So I guess you aren't even going to try to represent that XI's economy was a problem when you joined? Have you completely conceded the point that XI's established economy was no burden?

It was a problem that got "solved" by rampant RMT. Are you saying you'd like the same to happen to FFXIV?

Nice try, but I already headed off that one: you just finished claiming that low-level gear was far too expensive. Low-level gear is made by low-level crafters.

Not when I last seriously played this game, it wasn't. Additionally, that just furthers my point that a new economy would not be so awful.

Because this game will not grow by dumping newbies in a non-existent economy, where gear repairs and airship rides are a substantial investment.

Are they not paying subscription fees now? Did I ever say they didn't have a choice about what server they'd roll on?

The existing servers had gil flowing into the economy when 1) leves were the best way of gaining exp and 2) leves gave out massive amounts of gil. Neither of those things are true now. New XIV players would suffer an experience that, if not directly worse than what we suffered, is hardly an improvement. And new players (and game reviewers) having a horrible experience and quitting/bashing the game again affects me quite a bit.

You're considering the amount of gil leves reward now in the context of how much they used to reward. It's not a valid point on a server where the current rates are the only rates that have ever been in effect.

Am I to believe that you personally don't intend on profiting from rerolling on a new server? What, exactly, is your supposed motive for such a move, outside of getting a jump on all of the newbies?

I find DoL, DoH, and dirtfarming ungodly boring and would like to play on a server where leve rewards are a living wage.

[Sephiroth]

Who cares about leve rewards? Do you think I made all my gil from leves? I make 99% of my gil from selling items to other players. A new player can do that too. You don't have to level up a craft to fund your battle class as a new player either, if you hadn't noticed materials used by leatherworkers and cloth crafters drop from mobs. These sell for good money and aren't hard to farm. Fine you don't want to dirtfarm, but what makes grinding leves for gil any better? You're just farming a different way.

[Priran]

Who cares about leve rewards? Do you think I made all my gil from leves? I make 99% of my gil from selling items to other players. A new player can do that too. You don't have to level up a craft to fund your battle class as a new player either, if you hadn't noticed materials used by leatherworkers and cloth crafters drop from mobs. These sell for good money and aren't hard to farm. Fine you don't want to dirtfarm, but what makes grinding leves for gil any better? You're just farming a different way.

Maybe the drops you get at level 50 sell for something decent, but I'm almost 30 and the drops I get aren't worth shit. The majority go for maybe twice what I'd get vendoring them. And the difference between dirtfarming and leves is that doing leves, the mobs pose a challenge and I don't have to deal with retainers and market wards.

[Spider-Dan]

It was a problem that got "solved" by rampant RMT. Are you saying you'd like the same to happen to FFXIV?

So are you saying that when we started in XI (read: 2003), the economy was full of "rampant RMT"?

I'm talking about NA release, not two years later during the RMT Xmas. Give me a break.

Not when I last seriously played this game, it wasn't. Additionally, that just furthers my point that a new economy would not be so awful.

Right now, low-level gear can be made by low-level crafters; they removed the silly setup where a R20 synth requires mats that take an R30 to make.

On a new server, there will not be enough gil in existence to pay 100k for low-level gear. Therefore, if you are a lowbie crafter making gear using your crafting leve reward mats (i.e. near-zero cost), on an established server you would get "50-100k" (according to you), whereas in the stone age economy you'll be lucky to get 5k. So again, based on how many repairs/trips/rentals/NPC arrows that money will buy, players in the stone age economy get screwed.

Did I ever say they didn't have a choice about what server they'd roll on?

How is a new player going to know which servers are in the stone age?

You're considering the amount of gil leves reward now in the context of how much they used to reward.

No, I'm considering them in the context of how much NPC repairs, dark matter, chocobo rentals, and airship rides cost. Relative to an established server, on a new server those fees will be outrageously expensive; gil will have enormously increased value because of how little there will be in the economy.

P.S. Not to belabor the point, but there is a fundamental thread running through all of this: for new players, an inflated economy is GOOD, a deflated economy is BAD. Since new, poor players are impacted the most by NPC-based fees, an economy in which player-to-player transactions involve large amounts of gil helps the newbies (as long as there are ways to obtain sellables without buying them).

[Cayos]

Why don't you take this argument to the random speculation thread. I'm tired of checking here thinking something important was said by the devs, only to find you two bickering.

[Sephiroth]

Maybe the drops you get at level 50 sell for something decent, but I'm almost 30 and the drops I get aren't worth shit. The majority go for maybe twice what I'd get vendoring them. And the difference between dirtfarming and leves is that doing leves, the mobs pose a challenge and I don't have to deal with retainers and market wards.

There's many things you can farm at rank 10 that sell for a decent amount, nevermind rank 30. Snurble tufts being a good example. There's also money to be made gathering ores and logs which sell incredibly fast.

Don't tell me a new player can't make enough gil to pay 50k per piece for armour relatively quickly because you'd be lying. Sure they may not know the money making strategies right away but that's part of the learning curve on their part. That applies in any economy.

[Priran]

So are you saying that when we started in XI (read: 2003), the economy was full of "rampant RMT"?

I'm talking about NA release, not two years later during the RMT Xmas. Give me a break.

Are you serious? You don't remember gilsellers before Christmas 05? Did you never camp Monster Signa? IGE started their shit in FFXI damn near day one. I remember them logging in Ghelsba when I was doing mission 2-3.

Right now, low-level gear can be made by low-level crafters; they removed the silly setup where a R20 synth requires mats that take an R30 to make.

On a new server, there will not be enough gil in existence to pay 100k for low-level gear. Therefore, if you are a lowbie crafter making gear using your crafting leve reward mats (i.e. near-zero cost), on an established server you would get "50-100k" (according to you), whereas in the stone age economy you'll be lucky to get 5k. So again, based on how many repairs/trips/rentals/NPC arrows that money will buy, players in the stone age economy get screwed...I'm considering them in the context of how much NPC repairs, dark matter, chocobo rentals, and airship rides cost. Relative to an established server, on a new server those fees will be outrageously expensive; gil will have enormously increased value because of how little there will be in the economy.

Dark matter: cheap
NPC repairs: cheap, unnecessary
Chocobo rentals: unnecessary, anima still exists and you get your own chocobo for free at lv.25
Airship: price scales with level and not at all necessary

You're also ignoring the fact that on an isolated server, SE could just adjust the prices of these things to be less of a gil sink.

P.S. Not to belabor the point, but there is a fundamental thread running through all of this: for new players, an inflated economy is GOOD, a deflated economy is BAD. Since new, poor players are impacted the most by NPC-based fees, an economy in which player-to-player transactions involve large amounts of gil helps the newbies (as long as there are ways to obtain sellables without buying them).

Does the game assign you a sugar daddy at character creation now or something? How the fuck does it help a newbie that there are immensely wealthy people who want nothing the noob's got?

[Elrina]

I've been telling friends that I wanted to wait for new servers before I went back to XIV seriously since like, spring.

I was going to log in to check out 1.21, but I'm actually glad now that I think about the subs being tacked on, since it gives me an excuse to wait for 2.0 and the possibility of new servers again.

If/when I start FFXIV again, as a "new" player, during a PS3 re-release, I want to start it as if it were a new game. I'm sure a lot of other people who have quit and had no interest in playing (and especially the completely new people joining for the PS3 wave) around that time will appreciate the ability to start the game fresh, without the baggage of inflation and wealth from the game's broken phases pre-PS3 release.

I don't really get the "Stone Age" argument. I see no issue with treating the game as if it were just starting out. The prices of repairing gear, chocobo rentals, airship rides, etc. are all balanced towards an economy that can grow with new players (or should be), and so it starting fresh, while it may be a little more difficult to obtain money since the server is starting fresh, shouldn't really be an issue if the game is fun. Arguing that it's like starting the game in the Stone Age is tantamount to saying the game will not be fun without previously existing inflation to "ease the way", and if what most will consider a new game isn't fun at it's "release", then it shouldn't be getting released till it is.

Also, it's a pretty immediate buzz kill (imo) knowing that you logged into a server full of die hards that have been playing throughout all of the broken stages of the game and have collected massive amounts of money that you can't hope to compete with. Knowing that they've got a pretty comprehensive corner on basically anything and everything coming into the game simply because they were willing to play from it's terrible original release through till it's PS3 re-release just to have "an edge over newbies when the game gets better".

Even if some people will still profit and end up richer than others, that's normal in a new economy, but they won't reach the kind of tiers of wealth people are currently at.

I'll take new servers, please. And for the love of God, don't allow server transfers to them from the original servers for at least the first year they're added.

[Tomino]

The whole discussion is so point-of-view dependant that it's hard to handle:

Whenever you look at other players like potential jerks, any number of veteran, lv50 players looks like crap waiting to happen. You dont want them around, you dont want them to profit on your hard work, nor to become mercenaries for low level players (hello 250k Fenrir runs!).

Then, you can look at other players as actual resources. LS mates that can lend a hand to newcomers, the lv50 PUG who's exping LNC and will take your lv20 character to the good camps because he knows a lot about the game. You can have officers, or friends, taking you to Primal battles while they explain tactics and such. When I first started FF11, a lv60 Paladin who was my LS leader helped me out so many times it really made me feel it was an MMO and not just another solo game.


In the end, everything can be turned to shit with the rigth efforts. I feel that like it was for FF11, good LSes and beign part of them will make or break the game for its players.

[Kryssan]

There's many things you can farm at rank 10 that sell for a decent amount, nevermind rank 30. Snurble tufts being a good example. There's also money to be made gathering ores and logs which sell incredibly fast.

Don't tell me a new player can't make enough gil to pay 50k per piece for armour relatively quickly because you'd be lying. Sure they may not know the money making strategies right away but that's part of the learning curve on their part. That applies in any economy.

Actually, if you go to that new dungeon in Limsa they implemented for ~15 ish level parties, the stacks of drops there you can NPC for 20+k. I made 1 mill just selling the crap drops I got trying to get keys to acquire all the 'special/unique' gear. They might change that, but... yeah. I'm not seeing the argument, I've never had issues with being able to afford the things that I want.

I don't really care if they decide to do split servers, but I have no desire to start over from scratch again. If that's your deal then go start a new character - that's always an option for everyone. Those of us that don't want to do so shouldn't be made to do so.