Comments from the Devs

[Jamison]

I find DoL, DoH, and dirtfarming ungodly boring and would like to play on a server where leve rewards are a living wage.

I'm sorry, but you can't decide not to partake in 3 out of 4 ways to earn gil and then complain about the economy. Even on a brand new server, you'd be at a serious disadvantage to the players who did.

[Priran]

I'm sorry, but you can't decide not to partake in 3 out of 4 ways to earn gil and then complain about the economy. Even on a brand new server, you'd be at a serious disadvantage to the players who did.

Says who? People did fine in FFXI by participating in the economy solely through BCNM, KSNM, ENM, and so on.

[Spider-Dan]

Are you serious? You don't remember gilsellers before Christmas 05? Did you never camp Monster Signa? IGE started their shit in FFXI damn near day one. I remember them logging in Ghelsba when I was doing mission 2-3.

Yes, RMT existed in FFXI prior to NA release, just as they exist in XIV now (and will exist on a brand new XIV server). XI's economy was not dominated by "rampant RMT" at NA release. Not even close.

I still have yet to hear you say that XI's economy was actually broken at NA release. If not, then your entire argument falls apart, as there was a greater disparity between haves and have nots (especially in terms of how long it takes to level up battle or crafting) in XI than there will be in XIV-2.

Dark matter: cheap
NPC repairs: cheap, unnecessary
Chocobo rentals: unnecessary, anima still exists and you get your own chocobo for free at lv.25
Airship: price scales with level and not at all necessary

I'm going to ignore all of your assertions of what is and is not necessary (you're not leveling a crafting job, but NPC repairs are unnecessary?); if you expect new players to join and then use anima for everything (because airships and bird rentals cost money), you are sending them to the stone age.

I do find it interesting that when it's convenient for you, "just rank up to 25 and do an assload of quests as a rank 25 that take you all around the world" is a solid retort to more expensive NPC fees.

You're also ignoring the fact that on an isolated server, SE could just adjust the prices of these things to be less of a gil sink.

And you're ignoring the fact that on an isolated server, SE could just increase leve rewards until the new economy has as much gil in circulation as ours does. You know, exactly like they did already.

I mean, if we are going for total copout responses.

How the fuck does it help a newbie that there are immensely wealthy people who want nothing the noob's got?

I would love to hear who you think it is, exactly, that is buying the 100k lowbie gear that you were just whining about.

Says who? People did fine in FFXI by participating in the economy solely through BCNM, KSNM, ENM, and so on.

So let me see if I have this straight:

players having to get to LV40/60/75 to take a few restricted attempts at killing monsters for low percentage money drops = acceptable solution

HOWEVER

players having to get to LV50 (in a game where you level more than twice as fast) to make money = totally unreasonable solution

If you want to be able to be functional in the economy, you WILL have to gather, craft, or farm. If you think moving to a new server and doing leves-only is a viable solution for any new player on any server (and this is the reason why you are pushing for protected servers), your entire foundation is absurd.

[Spider-Dan]

Also, it's a pretty immediate buzz kill (imo) knowing that you logged into a server full of die hards that have been playing throughout all of the broken stages of the game and have collected massive amounts of money that you can't hope to compete with. Knowing that they've got a pretty comprehensive corner on basically anything and everything coming into the game simply because they were willing to play from it's terrible original release through till it's PS3 re-release just to have "an edge over newbies when the game gets better".

Once again:

Did you play XI?
If so, did you feel the same crushing sense of despair when you started that game?

It should be expected that people who aren't actually playing this game (but continue to follow it and post to forums about it) would be depressed at the thought of starting over in the midst of all the people who have detailed all of their progress to this point. Suffice it to say that this is not a sizable portion of the population. (Don't Lodestone forums specifically prohibit access from people who are not still playing the game?)

[Priran]

I love how you seem to think that having to do one low-level leve to afford a 1k airship trip or 800 gil chocobo ride is some intolerable stone age but leveling a gatherer class because you can't afford the mats to level the crafting class you need to make your own gear or make money selling it before you can even touch a combat class is A+ game design the critics will rave about. You are either extremely dumb or extremely duplicitous.

[Hioki]

Would people really leave their server, friends, and shellmates to regain the millions they already have? When we get new servers do you really think people are gonna restart at scratch just to say 'I'm out to ruin your economy!' vs just chilling with the people they are now and doing the new content?

Honestly at the low levels you can really get by on marmot pelt selling to npc for any of your gear needs. The NPC prices are not that high. You can outfit yourself for about 30k for the 1-20 range. I'll check the situation on mid-level gearing when I get to it.

[Wulfgang]

Agree with Dan, the parallel to Xi is spot on. SE can appease everyone though by opening "new player only" servers for the first six to twelve months following PS3 release, then allowing staged transfers in and out if desired. Don't really think it's necessary. I mined Ifrit's Cauldron from 2004 to 2008 and there were immensely wealthy JPs from the getgo that paid absurd prices for Adaman / Oric. Didnt mind their headstart at all; if youre resourceful you'll do fine, if you're not, you'll be behind the pack whether they wipe gil or not.

[Spider-Dan]

I love how you seem to think that having to do one low-level leve to afford a 1k airship trip or 800 gil chocobo ride is some intolerable stone age but leveling a gatherer class because you can't afford the mats to level the crafting class you need to make your own gear or make money selling it before you can even touch a combat class is A+ game design the critics will rave about.

That is a fair and valid point.

Therefore, SE should introduce some mechanism in the game to allow people to level crafting classes for free, without even having to supply their own mats or shards. Ideally, said mechanism would also provided free mats as a reward at completion.

At such time that this feature is added, I would be able to fairly dismiss your argument as completely irrelevant and pointless. But until then...

P.S. Was XI's economy broken for newbies at NA launch? If not, why does XIV need new protected servers when XI didn't? I'm going to keep asking as long as you keep dodging.

edit: Now I know why I was feeling a sense of deja vu from someone filibustering instead of answering a simple, direct question. It would seem that your refusal to answer is the only response I'm going to get.

[Spider-Dan]

Would people really leave their server, friends, and shellmates to regain the millions they already have? When we get new servers do you really think people are gonna restart at scratch just to say 'I'm out to ruin your economy!' vs just chilling with the people they are now and doing the new content?

The people who already have multimillions (or friends, or shellmates) are not those clamoring for new protected servers. The people making that demand are (almost exclusively) those who wish to be upper-crust plutocrats, but stopped playing this game too early to easily do so on existing servers.

Therefore, they want new, separate servers so they can leverage their advantage in game knowledge over true newbies (at relaunch) that don't have access to the same information.

Mostly.

[mightyg]

The whole argument is irrelevant because FFXIV isn't FFXI. There are no serious money issues to be had. Gear isn't nearly as important in FFXIV. You can level reasonably well with some pretty shoddy stuff. There are no big ticket items to buy yet, and beyond that I seriously doubt items will be able to be manipulated and controlled like they were in FFXI because rare ex gear is standard for nm drops, and the rest is instanced. Crafting is also more accessible to the general population because of leves so there will be more high quality gear (especially since you can purposely make hq) and the stuff is really for minor improvements anyways instead of FFXI where it was at least perceived you had to pay out the ass simply to not suck.
These Issues may change in the future, but I'm guessing simply from the way mechanics work in FFXIV that the big issues that FFXI had won't be appearing anytime soon.

[Draylo]

I've been telling friends that I wanted to wait for new servers before I went back to XIV seriously since like, spring.

I was going to log in to check out 1.21, but I'm actually glad now that I think about the subs being tacked on, since it gives me an excuse to wait for 2.0 and the possibility of new servers again.

If/when I start FFXIV again, as a "new" player, during a PS3 re-release, I want to start it as if it were a new game. I'm sure a lot of other people who have quit and had no interest in playing (and especially the completely new people joining for the PS3 wave) around that time will appreciate the ability to start the game fresh, without the baggage of inflation and wealth from the game's broken phases pre-PS3 release.

I don't really get the "Stone Age" argument. I see no issue with treating the game as if it were just starting out. The prices of repairing gear, chocobo rentals, airship rides, etc. are all balanced towards an economy that can grow with new players (or should be), and so it starting fresh, while it may be a little more difficult to obtain money since the server is starting fresh, shouldn't really be an issue if the game is fun. Arguing that it's like starting the game in the Stone Age is tantamount to saying the game will not be fun without previously existing inflation to "ease the way", and if what most will consider a new game isn't fun at it's "release", then it shouldn't be getting released till it is.

Also, it's a pretty immediate buzz kill (imo) knowing that you logged into a server full of die hards that have been playing throughout all of the broken stages of the game and have collected massive amounts of money that you can't hope to compete with. Knowing that they've got a pretty comprehensive corner on basically anything and everything coming into the game simply because they were willing to play from it's terrible original release through till it's PS3 re-release just to have "an edge over newbies when the game gets better".

Even if some people will still profit and end up richer than others, that's normal in a new economy, but they won't reach the kind of tiers of wealth people are currently at.

I'll take new servers, please. And for the love of God, don't allow server transfers to them from the original servers for at least the first year they're added.

'
Agreed. Spider-dan is one of those people that wanted to be above newbies when the game got good, as are the other people seemingly bitching about the fact that new players will not want to play on a server with these people.

[Priran]

That is a fair and valid point.

Therefore, SE should introduce some mechanism in the game to allow people to level crafting classes for free, without even having to supply their own mats or shards. Ideally, said mechanism would also provided free mats as a reward at completion.

At such time that this feature is added, I would be able to fairly dismiss your argument as completely irrelevant and pointless. But until then...

How long would leveling solely by leve take? Fucking forever, plus or minus eternity? Again, A+ game design once again, you're a fucking pro.

P.S. Was XI's economy broken for newbies at NA launch? If not, why does XIV need new protected servers when XI didn't? I'm going to keep asking as long as you keep dodging.

edit: Now I know why I was feeling a sense of deja vu from someone filibustering instead of answering a simple, direct question. It would seem that your refusal to answer is the only response I'm going to get.

The problem now as it was then isn't that I haven't answered the question, I just didn't answer it how you wanted so you keep reframing the question and insisting I dodged it.

Yes FFXI's economy was fucking jacked up and broken. You don't remember the poor souls who spammed the black tiger fang quest for gil? People buying gil just so they could afford to level a craft? It was so bad that the game's culture came to revolve around the buying and selling of gil, and crafting was dominated by old money who could afford to run upstarts straight out of business. And FFXIV would benefit from servers like I'm asking for because unlike NA FFXI launch it has to compete with games like WoW, GW2, not to mention its own shitty reputation.

[Spider-Dan]

How long would leveling solely by leve take? Fucking forever, plus or minus eternity?

This coming from the guy who suggests that, to pay for an airship ride, you can just truck out to a camp and do a solo leve. Outstanding time management skills, I say.

Once again, you are the one complaining about overpriced lowbie gear. So to answer your question, how long does it take to level a crafting job high enough to make lowbie gear, solely through leves? Not very long, when you compare the prospect of being able to make money with your crafting job vs. using up your limited leve allowance on battle jobs for the pitiful gil rewards, which (ironically) you then spend on BUYING GEAR.

Yes FFXI's economy was fucking jacked up and broken.

Thank you. So why are you jumping through all of these hoops to try to explain why new servers are needed, when (in a forum full of XI players) you could have just said, "Guys, don't you remember how horrible it was to enter XI's economy at NA release? Why would we want to repeat that dreadful experience?"

Of course, the reason why you didn't say that is because such an argument is transparently idiotic, particularly here; everyone on this forum benefited from joining a server where there were already existing crafters to buy your silk thread, goblin helms, and quadav backplates, and where used gear was readily available in the AH instead of having to buy it from NPCs (as was the case in stone age FFXI).

[Kaylia]

Did you play XI?
If so, did you feel the same crushing sense of despair when you started that game?

Did you play any mmo beside FFXI?

Why do you think economy is going to be as important in FFXIV as it was in FFXI? They already said they wanted to instance more content, and we can assume it's going to translate into more "ex" gears. Having a shitload of money might not matter as much as it did in FFXI and doesn't necessarily mean you will be much more powerful.


In the current context, doing something along these line would probably be much better than making different server, wiping the economy, or w/e.

[Priran]

Thank you. So why are you jumping through all of these hoops to try to explain why new servers are needed, when (in a forum full of XI players) you could have just said, "Guys, don't you remember how horrible it was to enter XI's economy at NA release? Why would we want to repeat that dreadful experience?"

Of course, the reason why you didn't say that is because such an argument is transparently idiotic, particularly here; everyone on this forum benefited from joining a server where there were already existing crafters to buy your silk thread, goblin helms, and quadav backplates, and where used gear was readily available in the AH instead of having to buy it from NPCs (as was the case in stone age FFXI).

The reason I didn't say that is because I'm arguing for a solution to the severely disadvantaged position new players will be in to a forum populated largely by people who:

A. Remember the olden days of FFXI through rose-colored glasses and
B. Have been playing for the last year with the express purpose of having an advantage over said new players.

Your theoretical approach is the idiotic one.

[Grey Jorildyn]

Here's a thought... let's make a mmo that isn't reliant on in-game currency! That would solve about 100,000 problems, including RMTs.

[xopher]

FYI arguing with priran is dumb. you should stop.

[Sephiroth]

How long would leveling solely by leve take? Fucking forever, plus or minus eternity? Again, A+ game design once again, you're a fucking pro.

It's actually not that bad since they added the EXP reward for handing them in. I don't grind crafts any more, except to 30 so I can get better hand in rewards but that isn't necessary either. Levelling by leve is incredibly fast compared to grinding at the game's launch.

[Patriarch]

"Im mad because I'm going to be playing a game with people, who have more currency than I do. They were playing over a year before I started, and I'm mad about that. It's unfair that while I wasn't playing, they were, and now they have lots and lots of currency. Since I am just starting out, I want the pre-existing players away from me because they make things unfair. I'm going to make fun of them for playing for the last year, saying things were broke. Although I am here now, ready to play. I want this game to exist around me. Things are too hard. Bawww."

Thats what I hear from most of you.

[Spider-Dan]

Did you play any mmo beside FFXI?

Usually when that question is asked, it's code for, "Did you play WoW?", but I guess I'll answer it straight: yes, I played EQ around the Kunark/Velious era.

Why do you think economy is going to be as important in FFXIV as it was in FFXI? They already said they wanted to instance more content, and we can assume it's going to translate into more "ex" gears. Having a shitload of money might not matter as much as it did in FFXI and doesn't necessarily mean you will be much more powerful.

I agree with everything you just said.

Therefore, since the economy is less important than it was in XI, being rich is less of an advantage than it was in XI, participating in the economy is easier (at every level) than it was in XI, and XI's various launches for different regions/platforms went just fine without protected servers, I see no reason to create protected servers for XIV's relaunch.