Comments from the Devs

[Grey Jorildyn]

I pretty much prefer any system that has it's own "point keeping". That way, guilds don't need to devise crazy DKP systems and we can all keep it simple, have fun, and get gear we want, followed by the gear that fills out our secondary classes. This is coming from someone who massively enjoys point systems.

[Sephiroth]

DKP just doesn't work in today's MMOs. You get people with no real lives turning up to 100% of events and because you missed one due to having a fun night out or whatever you're suddenly last on the list to get your item, which could mean waiting months or years longer depending on the item rarity. All because you missed one event.

The game should decide loot on an individual basis. Token/currency exchange is the best way to do it. That way if you miss one event you're just one event behind the 100% attenders rather than back of the queue and months behind.

[Siatdiat]

DKP just doesn't work in today's MMOs. You get people with no real lives turning up to 100% of events and because you missed one due to having a fun night out or whatever you're suddenly last on the list to get your item, which could mean waiting months or years longer depending on the item rarity. All because you missed one event.

The game should decide loot on an individual basis. Token/currency exchange is the best way to do it. That way if you miss one event you're just one event behind the 100% attenders rather than back of the queue and months behind.

DKP not working in games like FF11 wasn't because DKP sucks as a system, its because trying to get the same body piece after 6 years is really pathetic gameplay. I don't think many MMO's that have items people spend years working on are going to survive, or at least they won't flourish. It is definitely an issue Yoshi's team is worried about, which is why everyone has a lootpool of their own, and he has mentioned being worried about misuse of the looting system if they change it to more common methods.

I for one will be bored if every endgame type encounter is all based on different point systems to accrue for items. Would prefer the content to have a solid drop rate based around the number of people you have, mixed in with point or rep systems. At least in 14 unlike WoW, a piece will never truly rot since we can level multiple classes up. There was nothing like doing a WoW heroic or 10 man, and getting shit from last boss that was unusable by any class present.

[Grey Jorildyn]

What you just said doesn't apply to most modern dkp systems.

[Nevex]

Point systems have, do and will always suck. there is no such thing as a "modern" dkp system.
This is especially true in modern MMO's since they encourage solo and low-man activities.

[Niiro]

The greater issue doesn't lie with DKP, which is a player-made effort at a more fair token system.

It lies with the Great and Wise RNG, which does not heed to your feeble human attempts to create a reasonably balanced effort:reward ratio.

A story we've all heard/been a part of:
In my salvage LS back when I played XI there was a taru MNK (one of the founding members of that awesome LS) who was 4/5 usu forever, needing only the 35 body from the fucking turtle. He was next in line for many, many months with none dropping (we ran frequently and he attended the vast, vast majority of runs). One night when he wasn't around, we were doing SS, and as this story always goes it drops (to me, iirc I was 3rd in line but the person in 2nd wasn't around either). I was a committed member of the LS and continued to be long after but my time there didn't come close to his. Nuts to me but a swift kick in the nuts for him.

As long as situations like that can occur, a player coordinated DKP system can't be a satisfactory solution.

[Khrno]

As long as situations like that can occur, a player coordinated DKP system can't be a satisfactory solution.

The same happened to me with Ridill, For like 4 or so months I was first in line for it, in that time 5 dropped to our LS, but it was during days I happened to be working. I guess the main obstacle to a DKP system is the inability to do every single run or raid that a group could schedule.

[Egon]

There is no perfect lotting system. Need/greed is the best, but still sucks.

[Niiro]

Which is why we want a token system.

[Celeras]

Token systems fucking suck, which is a moot point anyway because they already said its going to be Need/Greed/Pass. I'm remembering why I stopped reading these threads, talk about the damn game and not your personal opinions on MMO mechanics.

[Corrderio]

Does it really matter? Can't do much worse with what we currently have.

[Cayos]

I think the problem here is that this is a thread for "Comments from the Devs", and the majority of the discussion going on here belongs in "FFXIV Random Speculation/Question Thread XI". If you speculate in the speculation thread, nobody will complain.

[Grey Jorildyn]

Point systems have, do and will always suck. there is no such thing as a "modern" dkp system.
This is especially true in modern MMO's since they encourage solo and low-man activities.

Firstly, your first statement is nothing but opinion. Secondly, DKP systems have been evolving for years. Just because you don't know anything about them doesn't mean they "will always suck".

Oh yeah? Modern MMOs encourage solo and low-man activities? Rift has lotsa 20-lowman content right? Or maybe its 10-lowman content. Or SW:TOR promising to add 8-16-lowman content right? Maybe WoW has solo/low-man content... or maybe it doesn't. And since when did solo content actually get you things that mattered in games that have it? Also, which games are those exactly? Aion? lulz...

It would really behoove you to learn something before making a completely incorrect post like this.

---
Now to business. A token system isn't perfect. RNG is farther from perfect. But modern MMOs (since I know a thing or two about these) seem to like putting token systems in certain types of content or in older content. PvP systems are notorious for using token-esque systems as well. The idea is that they want to reward everyone for taking part in the content equally, even if they don't put in equal effort. Player-based DKP systems try to fill in that gap and reward player effort and/or only grant rewards things are "earned" (such as drops from, you guessed it, RNG gods)--like ZeroSum system.

Need/Greed/Pass isn't bad, but in the current game environment it is complex to implement. This isn't a game where you declare a "main" or are bound within an archetype (ie. class). It's too open-ended right now. That's been the problem with the Final Fantasy Online series since XI. Loot is a primary motivator for the most amount of players out there, and not designing the game with a good loot distribution system is asstastic. XI didn't have one, and XIV is so far from one it's not even funny. Interestingly enough, we've seen them move away from the open-endedness more and more with each patch. Class identity is improving, but still not where it ought to be across the board. An increased amount of skills get restricted each patch too. This upcoming patch is going to further emphasize class identity with extra class balance. 1.21 is going to solidify it with the addition of jobs.

They're all tied together in a big way that isn't so visible to the average player who doesn't bother to look at gaming systems and just plays to play. It's all right there in front of you though. Even if we get need/greed/pass, people will still bitch about the lack of built-in restrictions to the system. Quite frankly, you ain't gonna ever see them since in happy JPland, everyone shares to enhance the group (right?) and here in the west, too many people play to better themselves only.

[Jakson]

If you speculate in the speculation thread, nobody will complain.

Ehh, idk about that.

[Cayos]

Nobody will complain about the act of speculating*

[Jeryhn]

If you speculate in the speculation thread, nobody will complain.

You must be new here.

[Draylo]

DKP just doesn't work in today's MMOs. You get people with no real lives turning up to 100% of events and because you missed one due to having a fun night out or whatever you're suddenly last on the list to get your item, which could mean waiting months or years longer depending on the item rarity. All because you missed one event.

The game should decide loot on an individual basis. Token/currency exchange is the best way to do it. That way if you miss one event you're just one event behind the 100% attenders rather than back of the queue and months behind.

So you should have the same chances for an item as someone who attends every run when you don't? How does that seem fair at all? I think DKP systems work just fine, if you can't play the game then you should expect to wait for something. If events are scheduled at certain times, I don't understand how someone has no life if they attend all those events considering that's what most people join end game groups for, scheduled and varied events.

[Niiro]

The greater issue doesn't lie with DKP, which is a player-made effort at a more fair token system.

It lies with the Great and Wise RNG, which does not heed to your feeble human attempts to create a reasonably balanced effort:reward ratio.

...

[Draylo]

Except I was talking to him and not you? But grats on quoting your opinion bro.

[Niiro]

Wasn't assuming you were, I was merely pointing out the flaw in the logic that people who attend more will have a greater "chance" at obtaining an item.

If an item drops 1% of the time and a person misses 1% of [event] there is always the potential that their effort will be meaningless.

An item is just as likely to drop the 1st time you kill something as the 200th, playing roulette with low drop rates and ability to attend is and always will be unfair to the player.