Comments from the Devs

[Thiefami]

My stance is if you do not have hardcore time then you shouldn't expect hardcore results. It's not about dedicating your life to the game, but it is about being sensible on what to realistically expect if you cannot play the game for prolonged period of time, like others do. DKP or no I personally feel not everything should be available to the casual gamer. In xi I never had a relic/mythic/empyrean, or even the niceties that came from the majority of HNM experiences, but it did not stop me from enjoying the game. The gear I could get with the time I could manage was sound and fair to me. As much as I love token rewarded gear I feel that it should not be the staple for all higher tier rewards.

[shepardG]

Last DKP i was a part of was based not just on attendance points, but also on percentage of events overall attendance. Additionally we had seperate DKP for limbus. It worked, but not really :/

I came into a shell (iizerg) and it was just winding down from what I would consider it's peak. panda was litterly churning out relics one every 2 months. just fucking owning the HNM, ixion scene, and fucking up tiamat constantly. Thing was, I joined a Hardcore HNM/event shell but i had a real life for the most part. It was tough. It took away alot of the fun of the game when i litterly associated it with work. I was not in the same situation as 95% of the rest of the LS.

I will always love FFXI, it was my first foray into MMO's and as a collector of all things FFXI (yeah even dirge of cerberus ><) It will always be around. Thing is I can't handle a video game like FFXI again,
and honestly, i don't think the mass market of MMO players want to deal with out of game DKP systems, when an in game token system would work more for everyones favor (yes, even the hardcore folks who want hardcore results)

I mean, mythics were on the right track until they threw alexandrite into the mix. I don't think alexandrite should have had such a shitty drop rate, nor should it have been player controlled. If each salvage, every one who participated recieved between 250-300 (random number) alex like nyzul tokens or ampoules, it would still take you about a year to finish a mythic, AND it reduces RMT because there isn't a currency that revolves around gil floating around. (this is assuming you went every day)

Thing is, there are some folks who could care less about a mythic, and those folks have the armor drops to provide motivation. hell you could even have made temp items like teleport scrolls and reraise items buyable from an NPC with alex, so they aren't just wasted for the folks who could give two shits about a kenkonken. All parties are motivated by armor, but when you come up empty handed atleast you could either 1. save up towards your mythic, or 2. ease your traveling/dieing woes.

It's just too easy for RMT's to exploit economies when you have these different currencies rolling around but they can all be bought by gil. The hardcore folks who would disk out 2k RL dollars to buy the gil, aren't doing it so they can get all the redundant stuff like herald's gaiter's and e.bodies. their paying that kind of cash because their buying a relic. If that relic were unobtainable except by ... wait for it... hardcore play, then you've just cut out a huge portion of RMT's customer base.

Not to mention the fact that everyone, not just the folks who can play 24/7, are getting a fairly decent reward. There was ways to make FFXI so good, and fair. The dev's just never put the thought and effort into it.

[Patriarch]

Token systems work well too, but why can't we have the rewards that cater to the hardcore crowd at the same time? I don't want to have every item accessible to the casual player.

Granted I can't play religiously like some, but I can put a good deal of time in because I play at work lol. When everything is obtainable through an in game point system, given a little time everyone will be walking around in the same gear. If SE could develop a system to cater to both crowds.. But we all know people are going to hate the system somehow. Can't have the best of both worlds.

I still want to feel special when I walk around in full crimson +1 and yoichi

[Grey Jorildyn]

DKP systems are bad because they're arbitrarily dictated by the guild's leaders, thus they're always tailored to put someone in advantage. It may be the leaders themselves or the no-lifers who are always ahead of you for a mere point, but it doesn't matter who that person is.

DKPs really do nothing other than making a MMORPG less rewarding and creating animosity between guildmates.

DKP systems are a tool. They are not inherently bad. Some of the people you've had experience with in dealing with DKP system clearly are however. I've developed several fair and balance DKP systems in my time as a guild leader. None of them rewarded me anymore than anyone else in the guild. Transparency is clutch with something like this. If you've been had by an awful leader and an unfair DKP system, then sorry bro, but you're not providing anything objective here.

[Siatdiat]

I still want to feel special when I walk around in full crimson +1 and yoichi

lol

[Lucavi]

Now he's just got to be trolling at this point.

[Niiro]

My stance is if you do not have hardcore time then you shouldn't expect hardcore results. It's not about dedicating your life to the game, but it is about being sensible on what to realistically expect if you cannot play the game for prolonged period of time, like others do. DKP or no I personally feel not everything should be available to the casual gamer. In xi I never had a relic/mythic/empyrean, or even the niceties that came from the majority of HNM experiences, but it did not stop me from enjoying the game. The gear I could get with the time I could manage was sound and fair to me. As much as I love token rewarded gear I feel that it should not be the staple for all higher tier rewards.

This is a very poor and antiquated view. Not being able to play as often as others shouldn't deny one access to the same game content, it's rewards should simply come at a slower pace relative to their available play time.

People that don't have as much spare time to play don't appreciate a game that spites them because of it by excluding them, and a game like XIV can hardly afford to alienate such players (see: adults). In game accomplishments should be rewarded based on man-hours of effort, not based on who has the least amount of real life obligations.

People who don't want normal players to access the same content as "hardcore" players need to take a good look in the mirror and ask themselves; do you play an MMO because it's fun or do you play it to feel superior to others who have less spare time?

[Achitophel]

My stance is if you do not have hardcore time then you shouldn't expect hardcore results. It's not about dedicating your life to the game, but it is about being sensible on what to realistically expect if you cannot play the game for prolonged period of time, like others do. DKP or no I personally feel not everything should be available to the casual gamer. In xi I never had a relic/mythic/empyrean, or even the niceties that came from the majority of HNM experiences, but it did not stop me from enjoying the game. The gear I could get with the time I could manage was sound and fair to me. As much as I love token rewarded gear I feel that it should not be the staple for all higher tier rewards.

A rational response not based around selfish desires, I like it. I was known as a pretty competent player on my server back in the day, but didn't have the time or schedule to accommodate HNMing. As a main monk, that meant I rocked a brown belt while guys that had a third job or some such as a monk were rocking the black. It wasn't until years later when I had the time and desire to do join a HNMLS that I got mine, but that's okay.

Reward should be commensurate with the time and dedication put into it. Even if it doesn't work out in your favor. And that's that.

[miokomioko]

Not being able to play as often as others shouldn't deny one access to the same game content, it's rewards should simply come at a slower pace relative to their available play time.

^ The answer.

Less playtime should never outright shut someone out of ever experiencing some content or getting a reward. It should just take longer. There should always be some sort of progress towards any goal as a product of playing the game.

[Lordender]

DKP system is only as good as the person running it. I have seen it ran well and bad over my time that I played WoW. It is a great system when you have someone who is fair and objectionable and its terrible when you have someone who doesn't know what the fuck they're doing.

The only gripe I have with the system is sometimes it causes wheeling and dealing amongst people in your guild. If you make a strong circle of a few friends you can abuse the system especially if theres some minority of classes.

[Nevex]

Reward should be commensurate with the time and dedication put into it. Even if it doesn't work out in your favor. And that's that.

This would make complete sense, if we weren't talking about a game.
This is the #1 problem that affects all MMO's: you start playing them because you want to play a game, and later they turn into a job.
DKP systems make this flaw even more apparent, which causes players to become alienated and eventually quit.

[Thiefami]

^ The answer.

Less playtime should never outright shut someone out of ever experiencing some content or getting a reward. It should just take longer. There should always be some sort of progress towards any goal as a product of playing the game.

I agree with it taking longer, actually, it is the reason I used Relic, Mythic, Empyrean as an example. Is it possible for a casual player to attain these weapons? Yes. It is very possible. Is it realistic for a casual player to attain them? No, not really. Not in the time frame they are actually expecting. Shit, how many people you know that played over 4 hours a day that gave up on one of the above? My opinion is extreme content should not be dumbed down to appease those of us who have jobs and lives that cannot play all day.

If you have the luxury of playing for 12 hours a day you should be a prime candidate for legendary items. If you come home from work and manage to squeeze in 5 hours a day, you are pretty much hardcore. You likely will not clear the content as quick as the person who is literally on all day, but you are more likely to reach the goal in a suitable time frame than....say..someone who has 2 hours a day.. realistically, you should hang it up. You likely will not complete the legendary items. It really isn't meant for you. Now just because it isn't meant for you doesn't mean you cannot try. No one is there to stop you. Technically the content is there for you to take a stab at it. That kind of dedication required is precisely the reason why the '2 hours (maybe) a day' guy, on very rare occasions, completed a Mythic or an Empyrean.

I knew a guy who literally farmed the same drop for years with his 2 to 3 hour a day play schedule and managed to finish a Relic. For years! His entire play schedule! I told him how proud and impressed I was with his dedication, but I could not do that. He is the exception, not the rule.

I completely agree that most content should be available to everyone, but realistically not everyone will have the resources most players will have. That resource may be playtime, it may be a linkshell, it may be friends. Whatever it is, and whatever you are lacking you should honestly ask yourself, 'are my goals realistic?' if you do not want to waste time. In a perfect scenario this game would have extreme endgame content, and then regular wide variety end game content with something for everyone (even the hardcore players).

[Thiefami]

double post

[Niiro]

Relics are one of the better examples of a preferable reward system (gradual progress) only faulted by the sheer amount of material needed to obtain them (or rather, faulted by being specific to only the highest achievements, which logically should require greater amounts, but I'm getting off point here).

The more obtuse, disdained models people want to get rid of are the all-or-nothing, low drop rate, sadistic RNG kind. Dynamis (or salvage, or kings, etc) as it was had the extreme potential for participants to walk away with nothing to show for it much of the time (often most), perhaps with only the prospect of progress towards a given goal (see: DKP, which is itself a prospect, no matter how much a player accumulates it will never increase the drop rate of that chapeau).

This is the kind of model we don't want.

If participators in dynamis received evenly distributed currency with every run that could be used to buy AF2, upgrade AF2, or further a relic it would remove the potential of it being a 3 hour exercise in futility.


edit: and as has been proposed, there are many ways to make a token system (as above) dynamic to reward more skilled/creative play rather than just a "salaried" event with no surprises.

[Sephiroth]

There are two big problems with this scenario, both of which have to do with the innate presumption that there is only one desirable item, ever:

1) If new, more desirable items are introduced, persons 5-9 (or whatever) are first in line for the new items

2) If other people slack off after getting their one item, person #10 will jump them in line for future items

Obviously, DKP (or any other system, really) doesn't work very well if there is only one item that people want and they lose incentive to participate after getting it.

That's a fair point but there is always one item that everyone wants first and people will prioritise because they know if they spend their points on a lesser item they'll never get what they really want due to the demand.

Look at Ifrit, it drops 7 weapons but everyone attending wants either an axe or a lance. If you go spend your DKP on a crappy cudgel or whatever you'll be last in your LS to get your axe or lance. So it becomes a case of everyone saving points until they get what they want first, which leads to my above scenario.

The way XIV is heading it simply doesn't have a variety of good loot. Before new content is released the current content has be cleared. No one did Darkhold after 1.19 and no one will be doing Ifrit after 1.20. Moogle will likely have 2-3 drops that everyone wants too with the rest being retainer filler.

Token systems work well too, but why can't we have the rewards that cater to the hardcore crowd at the same time? I don't want to have every item accessible to the casual player.

Why do you want items that only the hardcore can get? Items should be distributed based on skill, not how much time you have to play. Playing 50 hours a week doesn't always make you a better player than the guy who plays 10. The "casual" player could be efficient and accomplish more, perhaps beating Ifrit on the 50th try rather than the 500th attempt the "hardcore" player is at.

[Elcura]

Why do you want items that only the hardcore can get? Items should be distributed based on skill, not how much time you have to play. Playing 50 hours a week doesn't always make you a better player than the guy who plays 10. The "casual" player could be efficient and accomplish more, perhaps beating Ifrit on the 50th try rather than the 500th attempt the "hardcore" player is at.

fffffff is clearly an idiot, you'd do well to ignore him.

[Wulfgang]

As much as I hated camping F/N and the randomness of going without E Body for 5 years, I did largely enjoy it. Not suggesting they make another FFXI-esque kings system for rewarding endgame players, but I think adding a once per day pop NM that has some nasty loot and is nearly impossible to kill would be awesome; at the minimum it would give people something to look forward to all day besides grinding crafts / Ifrit.

[CrstyCptSteveWitherspoon]

Relics are one of the better examples of a preferable reward system (gradual progress) only faulted by the sheer amount of material needed to obtain them (or rather, faulted by being specific to only the highest achievements, which logically should require greater amounts, but I'm getting off point here).

The more obtuse, disdained models people want to get rid of are the all-or-nothing, low drop rate, sadistic RNG kind. Dynamis (or salvage, or kings, etc) as it was had the extreme potential for participants to walk away with nothing to show for it much of the time (often most), perhaps with only the prospect of progress towards a given goal (see: DKP, which is itself a prospect, no matter how much a player accumulates it will never increase the drop rate of that chapeau).

This is the kind of model we don't want.

If participators in dynamis received evenly distributed currency with every run that could be used to buy AF2, upgrade AF2, or further a relic it would remove the potential of it being a 3 hour exercise in futility.


edit: and as has been proposed, there are many ways to make a token system (as above) dynamic to reward more skilled/creative play rather than just a "salaried" event with no surprises.

This exactly. No more making time to do a 2-3 hour event 1-2x a week and literally having nothing to show for it, again.

Simple example of warhammer which had a decent system though flawed in how many times you could do the event for a while...
When, as a faction, you locked zones and got to invade the other factions city you were given a dice roll(totally broken dice roll) for a loot bag that could contain a piece of gear you wanted. There were like 1-3 gold bags iirc depending on the stage and number of people that contained a RANDOM piece of loot that everyone wanted. If you got the gold bag, sweet you could get the RANDOM piece of gear OR take 5~10 tokens. If you didn't get a bag you were given something like 2-3 tokens for just completing the stage. Best part was if you got a bag, it had the loot FOR YOUR CLASS in that bag. So no wasted gear (unless you already owned that gear/didn't want it, but you could always take the tokens). Tokens could then be turned in at an npc for the same loot from the bags.

Simple but effective. Plenty of runs I never got a bag but after a certain amount of runs and tokens saved I could at least pick up a piece of gear. Gave me a sense of progression and required some time. Just adjust the amount of tokens dropped/tokens needed for gear.

[Corrderio]

Confirmed you can't dye AF.

I've confirmed with the dev. team that they won't be making it possible to dye job-specific equipment in the future. For some people, jobs and their equipment hold a special image in their minds and there might be those put off by the fact that the image can be altered by being able to dye them multiple colors. We want to maintain that special image by keeping the equipment uniform.

However, in the future, it might be possible to release different colored job-specific equipment as new items.

This has to be one of the worst excuses I've heard yet.

[Kaiyoko]

Confirmed you can't dye AF.

This has to be one of the worst excuses I've heard yet.

To me it's a valid excuse. You don't see WHM AF anything but white and red primarily for example.