Comments from the Devs

[Spider-Dan]

Not really. The difference would be that we're getting specialised versions of current classes in the form of jobs. Conjurer can nuke and heal right now but will specialise in healing. Getting an additional job that specialises in nuking but doesn't have the same healing skills WHM acquires?

Since jobs have access to the class-specific actions of their base class, the new job you propose would have all of CNJ's base healing abilities (but none of WHM's) with an added ability to nuke.

i.e. what we have right now

[vadre]

Since jobs have access to the class-specific actions of their base class, the new job you propose would have all of CNJ's base healing abilities (but none of WHM's) with an added ability to nuke.

i.e. what we have right now

Except the opposite? Instead of having strong healing abilities, they'd have strong nuking abilities. I don't really get where the issue is, in situations where jobs are used (i.e. 8-man groups if Yoshida's to be believed) the basic spells aren't likely to cut it at performing their individual role, so just having CNJ's basic cures wouldn't make any more difference than BLM/WHM pre-abyssea. Even then, they could limit base-class abilities if they really want to focus on specialisation.

I don't really get what the resistance is about, we know that each class will get more jobs and I'm merely hoping we get more options as each class, and therefore it's easier to get a hold of tanks and healers.

I may have misunderstood your point, if you're talking about THM they don't have sacrifice anymore so it wouldn't be 'what we have now' in that respect. Even if it did, adequate uses of additional resources and fighting styles can differentiate 2 magic nuker types from one another. Even then, CNJ could get a different job-type like a buffer/debuffer that's useful in groups.

[Spider-Dan]

Except the opposite? Instead of having strong healing abilities, they'd have strong nuking abilities.

Where are you getting "instead of" from? They would have all of the healing abilities of a CNJ, PLUS whatever nuking abilities the new job gives them.

I don't really get where the issue is, in situations where jobs are used (i.e. 8-man groups if Yoshida's to be believed) the basic spells aren't likely to cut it at performing their individual role, so just having CNJ's basic cures wouldn't make any more difference than BLM/WHM pre-abyssea.

If this is true, healing will be totally ineffective between 1.20 (where THM is nerfed and CNJ is the only healing game in town) and 1.21 (when WHM is introduced).

Put rather simply: given that CNJ's healing is expected to be serviceable in 1.20 (the update that purportedly brings the game to retail-quality), any nuking job added to CNJ would restore the dual-purpose, no-class-identity mage role that people bitched about pre-1.18.

Even then, they could limit base-class abilities if they really want to focus on specialisation.

I mean, they could, but they have already shown that at a bare minimum, jobs have access to even the class-specific actions of their base class. So unless they go back to the drawing board again before XIV-2...

[TacoTaru]

What's the deal with wanting to make CNJ a nuking class? Go level THM which is an actual nuking class <_<

[Spider-Dan]

What's the deal with wanting to make CNJ a nuking class? Go level THM which is an actual nuking class <_<

...unless they make more drastic changes, in which case it may not be.

CNJ is a pretty good nuking class today. THM was the best healing class two patches ago. There is no such thing as permanent class identity right now.

[TacoTaru]

It's been obvious since 1.19 CNJ was going to be the WHM class. Unless you're suggesting they may eventually going to devalue BLM's nuking ability or remove it entirely in favor of a new class, in which case it doesn't matter because you'd have to level a new class anyway. Drastic changes regarding the type of nukes/cures THM/CNJ has I can see. Completely flipping roles? Not likely at this point. While it may not have been so clear pre-1.19*, it's been apparent for awhile now which is which.

[CaptainN]

BST would make alot of people happy, but I can't deny the fact that this game needs more Mages :/

BST was great back in ffxi, would love to see it come back around in XIV

Would love to see BST in FFXIV but only after they made changes to the maps/mob placement. Current maps are terrible and the excitement of going to level in a dangerous remote location is completely lost here in FFXIV. God do they need more monster types, feel like i'm fighting the same shit here.

[Spider-Dan]

It's been obvious since 1.19 CNJ was going to be the WHM class.

So you're saying that it's been obvious since... the most recent major patch? That isn't exactly a useful precedent for the future.

The point is, telling people what they should have been leveling in a game going through major transition is folly. Pre-1.18, THM was clearly the best healer; from 1.18-1.19, THM had several useful actions that a healer could make use of; post-1.20, THM offers virtually nothing to any healer at all.

[TacoTaru]

I only had picked the game back up about a month prior to 1.19 and rerolled right before hand, is there something that made THM such a good healer that you shouldn't have had CNJ at 50 as well to begin with? I don't really see how Cure II and Protect/Shell/Stoneskin 1 was going to do you a lot of good in fights like Ifrit with their tiered versions are so vastly superior.

People who leveled CNJ thinking it was going to be BLM have it the worst since you didn't really need anything off THM that was crucial. It's not quite the same the other way around. That being said, there have still be months since it 1.19 launched and if you didn't really feel like grinding over again, uber-PL was available for awhile, and it still exists now albeit it needs a bit more focus. It's not like it takes more than a few days to get a 50.

*Edit* Yes I know Ifrit wasn't until 1.19, but Batraal and Ogre all the same.

[Spider-Dan]

Prior to 1.18, THM was godlike at healing; cone AoE sacrifice for miniscule MP and AoE siphon MP, to boot. (To be fair, CNJ was superior to their current iteration, as well; it's just that THM took a huge bat to the face in healing capability, while CNJ took a much smaller hit.) I suppose if you wanted to min/max, you could have ranked up CNJ for higher-tiered buffs, but it wasn't like now where healers buff from an MP conservation or enmity management standpoint. As I saw it, the primary benefit for dual R50 mages was for soloers.

[Patriarch]

Would love to see BST in FFXIV but only after they made changes to the maps/mob placement. Current maps are terrible and the excitement of going to level in a dangerous remote location is completely lost here in FFXIV. God do they need more monster types, feel like i'm fighting the same shit here.

I agree, and I can concur with so many other's opinions on here that this game is in need of more casters first. But how I would like to see BST come back around.

And to your same-mob comment, It's already apparent mobs in XIV are going to come about as the mobs in XI did. Same models, new name.

Clipper, Snipper, Bigclaw, ironshell, steelshell, land crab, nipper, robber crab, i could go on, etc

[miokomioko]

A pet class would at least add a little much-needed diversity to the class system. Also, I don't believe people asking for a pet class would necessarily mean lack of a 3rd mage since Arcanist/Geomancer is probably well down the development pipes by now.

[plue]

I'm surprised at the popularity of the option for another mage class. I'd personally rank it as the third option. Sure, there's only two magic classes in the game right now, but if you add a third one, it'll just be an iteration of the other two, perhaps with slightly different animations.

I'd really love to see a Thief class added, which doesn't seem like a popular choice. At least this would allow a new mechanic into the game, since all the other melee classes are pretty bland. Thief in my eyes would at least introduce diveresity.

If they let us vote though, my vote would go for a pet class. I'm not a fan of pet jobs, and I probably would never play it, but there are a lot of people that do, and this concept has been completely neglected. My only concern would be my complete lack of belief that SE could pull off this completely new mechanic with the state of things right now.

[Niiro]

PGL is more THF than MNK really.

Then again it seems they've got some weird plans for PGL in the future.

[Grey Jorildyn]

Eh, I dunno. PGL seems more like MNK than THF to me. Here's how I break it down:

Mnk aspects: punches for white damage, has counters, fist-based weapon skills with various effects, self-heal, has tank aspects and decent HP.

Thf aspects: blindside, "most evasive" class (but closer to mnk than thf in this regard), featherfoot.

[Niiro]

PGL is entirely dependent on evades and blindside for decent damage (someone at SE didn't think that one through btw), high DEX, less HP than other DoW (cept ARC?), accomplice (copied wholesale).

Granted each class in XIV is a mix of 2 classes from XI, but PGL's defining abilities and function in a party are much closer to THF than MNK. Chakra and H2H are about it.

Also nostalgia bomb, remember back in the day when low level THFs subbed MNK for SA+combo?

edit: just checked, PGL has the same HP/VIT as LNC (PGL has 10 more DEX, LNC has 10 more STR, themoreyouknow.jpg)

[Grey Jorildyn]

Ok I can see it that way too. It's not really one or the other in implementation, and that is its true weakness as a class. It's always kinda been the "nobody cares" class.

I definitely remember the h2h thieves in yhotoar using combo until viper bite haha!

[Priran]

this just in nullifying incoming damage and redirecting said nullified attacks is what a thf does. also what is counterstance

[Spider-Dan]

If you want to break it down that generically, "job that uses enmity-generating ability to facilitate tanking without being hit" doesn't sound like THF or MNK.

[Alkar]

But... but... class identity and uniqueness!

Healing on 1.20 THM (compared to 1.19) will basically be the equivalent of going from 75RDM/WHM to 75BLM/WHM (especially since THM is losing Siphon MP/Exaltation and their replacement MP management abilities are for attack magic only). The game will be hardcore bottlenecked at CNJ for everything.

The problem should be fixed when BLM is introduced (with Convert)... but that's presuming that jobs are even capable of equipping cross-class traits, which is far from guaranteed.

Lol no. This is nothing like subbing WHM in FFXI. In XI if you want stronger support spells you're forced to sub WHM (or SCH) and you can't simply pick a spell.
All THM needs to do is equip Cure and they can now toss heals if necessary. And considering tiers are getting removed we don't know how powerful Cure will be at 50. They could even make Cura work like Curasa does in FFXIII and heal a huge chunk of HP only if the target of the spell is missing a lot of HP compared to its max (that is a %).
In this game you can pick spells individually and you're not forced to go with the whole package... this is why more mage classes are needed as well because we don't have as many options as melees and most spells are getting removed completely next week.