Comments from the Devs

[Niiro]

this just in nullifying incoming damage and redirecting said nullified attacks is what a thf does. also what is counterstance

A model copied to shield block and parry as well, it's not as unique as it once was.

The defining characteristics MNK has had in prior FFs have generally been high (usually highest) HP, high damage, low DEF, a "Boost" ability, and a counter ability. PGL just doesn't exhibit as much of those and functions closer to THF.

edit; everything past here was just me going off on a tangent

Also it just occurred to me (though not relevant to gameplay really) is the lore of PGL in XIV. They're a bunch of shady-ass loan sharks, that seem more in line with THF or MNK?

Granted we're all assuming Jobs will have their own break-off lore from Classes, since the lore of classes is interpreted via the real-world organizations they mirror and/or the overarching theme of the city they're in.
ul'dah: bloodsports, gambling/moneylending, life insurance/scam artists (GLA, PGL, THM)
limsa: enterprise, endeavor, independence, pirates/privateers, eyepatches (MRD)
grid: boring "one with nature"/protect the wood crap across the board really (ARC, LNC, CON)

[Spider-Dan]

Lol no. This is nothing like subbing WHM in FFXI. In XI if you want stronger support spells you're forced to sub WHM (or SCH) and you can't simply pick a spell.
All THM needs to do is equip Cure and they can now toss heals if necessary.

THM healing in 1.20 is analogous to 75BLM/WHM healing in XI. Both involve a job with no native healing ability using support abilities to heal and leveraging their big native MP pool.

And considering tiers are getting removed we don't know how powerful Cure will be at 50.

But what we do know is:

1) even though "tiers are being removed," CNJ is getting two different spells, one of which "restores a portion of HP" and the other "restores a large portion of HP." But don't you dare call them Cure and Cure II! They will clearly be named differently. Which matters.

2) the only advantage a THM will have casting Cure (compared to, say, MRD) is a) bigger MP pool and b) more MND. That's almost exactly like comparing BLM/WHM to, say, DRG/WHM.

The reason why I say THM is moving from RDM/XXX to BLM/WHM is because right now, THM has their own native full-strength healing ability and several tools to replenish their MP pool (Siphon MP, Exaltation). After the update, they will have neither (THM's MP restore/management abilities are for attack magic only).

The end result is that you wind up with a sub-healer whose only real advantages over a curing melee are a huge MP pool and the fact that they aren't engaging during fights. Sounds like BLM/WHM to me.

In this game you can pick spells individually and you're not forced to go with the whole package... this is why more mage classes are needed as well because we don't have as many options as melees and most spells are getting removed completely next week.

It's absurd for the playerbase to (shortsightedly) clamor for "more unique class identity!" and then immediately complain that they need more classes to replace all the abilities that were just stripped from the existing classes. Make up your mind.

1.20 is shaping up to be a seminal lesson in being-careful-what-you-wish-for. I personally look forward to the rivers of salty tears when the "class identity!" mob realizes that they can't do anything ever without a CNJ strapped to their belt. XIers already experienced this phenomenon in '03 WHM and '07 RDM; it is not a desirable outcome.

[TacoTaru]

Except you have no idea how the new cure will function (flat number/range based on stats, percentage based on player HP, etc) which really makes your claim of "OMG ITS NOW BLM/WHM LET ME REASSIGN MY LEVELS, SE" entirely speculatory and borderline paranoid. Is THM going to be as good a healer after 1.20? No you won't have access to Cure III or a form of Regen, but seeing as you never had Cure III to begin with and probably settled with Cure II, it's possible the baseline Cure will scale enough to match what you already were relying on to begin with. It's easy to speculate anything when nothing is known!

Oh and there's also that part where you are a BLM and not a RDM to begin with.

[Lucavi]

You can't call them Cure II and Cure II until you see the recast timers and cast timers on them. If you see clones of Cure, but with more healing and more MP, then yeah, call em Cure II and III. I wouldn't be surprised to see this, because that would just be "oh so Final fantasy", which is half the reason why this game is rotting in a ditch right now. It'd be nice to see them spice things up, but we'll see what happens.

[Spider-Dan]

Except you have no idea how the new cure will function (flat number/range based on stats, percentage based on player HP, etc) which really makes your claim of "OMG ITS NOW BLM/WHM LET ME REASSIGN MY LEVELS, SE" entirely speculatory and borderline paranoid.

Here's what we know about the spells:

CNJ Mag. 1 Restores a portion of the target's HP.
CNJ Mag. 2 Restores a large portion of the target's HP.

Interpret that as creatively as you like. The bottom line is that CNJ is getting one spell that any class can use, and another class-exclusive spell that heals more. Does it really make a difference if one of them is called "Cure" and one is called "Restore"?

Is THM going to be as good a healer after 1.20? No you won't have access to Cure III or a form of Regen, but seeing as you never had Cure III to begin with and probably settled with Cure II, it's possible the baseline Cure will scale enough to match what you already were relying on to begin with.

Why would THM ever cast Cure2 when they can cast Sac2 for MORE instant healing, lower MP cost, and regen?

In any case, you're sidestepping the point: THM will be able to cast Cure of (approximately) the same potency as an ARC, just with a bigger MP pool. This is true in the same sense and to the extent that BLM/WHM, BRD/WHM, and DRG/WHM all cast equally potent Cures. That doesn't make them a substitute for a RDM, much less a WHM.

Oh and there's also that part where you are a BLM and not a RDM to begin with.

THM is actually neither of those, but I'd say the class with native healing spells that can capably mainheal a party resembles RDM more than BLM.

[Alkar]

Again: BLM/WHM and THM equipping Cure are two completely different things. In one case you're sacrificing extra stats and abilities that could increase your damage output in the other you're simply equipping a spell and this has no real effect on your damage considering most of the abilities and traits are learned naturally as you level up.
And no, I don't see the connection between wanting more magic classes because entire categories of spells have been removed and wanting class uniqueness.
WHM and BLM always had some sort of enfeebling and buffing capabilities but considering those have been greatly removed from their lists wanting more classes and jobs to focus on those is kinda normal. Bard already covers part of the buffs and an enfeebling class is most likely on the way.
But hey, SE was gonna give WHM to THM so they could heal as well as a CNJ right?

[Spider-Dan]

Again: BLM/WHM and THM equipping Cure are two completely different things. In one case you're sacrificing extra stats and abilities that could increase your damage output in the other you're simply equipping a spell and this has no real effect on your damage considering most of the abilities and traits are learned naturally as you level up.

Are you trying to imply that subbing WHM was some crazy, unreasonable sacrifice for 75BLM? In the LV75 era, WHM was literally the most popular SJ for BLM in the game (by nearly a five-to-one margin!), and the 2nd most popular job combo in the entire game. Please do not try to spin BLM/WHM as some sort of rare, unacceptable compromise. (And if you're thinking of making an impassioned plea for the incredible superiority of BLM/RDM over BLM/WHM, don't bother; you can literally replace my previous citations of 75BLM/WHM with 75BLM/RDM and everything I said is precisely as true.)

That being said, you're confusing the issue; the question is not whether 75BLM could reasonably sub WHM (note: they could) or whether THM can acceptably equip Cure, but their effectiveness as a healer when making that choice. And the plain and simple fact is that THM equipping Cure (compared to another melee) is the functional equivalent of BLM/WHM (compared to melee/WHM).

And no, I don't see the connection between wanting more magic classes because entire categories of spells have been removed and wanting class uniqueness.

Maybe next, SE can remove all tanking abilities from MRD and PGL (in the name of "class identity"), so you can complain that there should be more tanking classes?

You're asking for an enfeebling class to be created when one already exists right now and is being blown up as a direct result of your cries for class identity. This makes no sense.

[TacoTaru]

So until CNJ gets their second curing ability, what differentiates them between a THM equipping cure and a melee equpping cure other a bigger MP pool (which may or may not be bigger than THM)?

[Spider-Dan]

So until CNJ gets their second curing ability, what differentiates them between a THM equipping cure and a melee equpping cure other a bigger MP pool (which may or may not be bigger than THM)?

Fundamentally, there really isn't a difference, I suppose... in the same sense and to the extent that there really isn't a difference between WHM/XXX and XXX/WHM from LV1-10.

Well, to be precise, there's also the CNJ-only Sublimation ability, but the obvious retort there is, "What about before CNJ gets that ability?" So yeah, as long as you're willing to go far enough back into the lowbie game, most everything tends to flatten out.

[Alkar]

Are you trying to imply that subbing WHM was some crazy, unreasonable sacrifice for 75BLM? In the LV75 era, WHM was literally the most popular SJ for BLM in the game (by nearly a five-to-one margin!), and the 2nd most popular job combo in the entire game. Please do not try to spin BLM/WHM as some sort of rare, unacceptable compromise. (And if you're thinking of making an impassioned plea for the incredible superiority of BLM/RDM over BLM/WHM, don't bother; you can literally replace my previous citations of 75BLM/WHM with 75BLM/RDM and everything I said is precisely as true.)

That being said, you're confusing the issue; the question is not whether 75BLM could reasonably sub WHM (note: they could) or whether THM can acceptably equip Cure, but their effectiveness as a healer when making that choice. And the plain and simple fact is that THM equipping Cure (compared to another melee) is the functional equivalent of BLM/WHM (compared to melee/WHM).


Maybe next, SE can remove all tanking abilities from MRD and PGL (in the name of "class identity"), so you can complain that there should be more tanking classes?

You're asking for an enfeebling class to be created when one already exists right now and is being blown up as a direct result of your cries for class identity. This makes no sense.

BLM/RDM did not have access to all the support cures and spells /WHM had but yes, it was the better option for damage dealing on BLM. There was no reason to go /WHM unless the group needed a support and in that case RDM main was always a better choice and always present either way thanks to its enfeebles and Refresh/Haste.
You can spin it all you want but /WHM was not the best choice and it did bring shortcomings. In FFXIV those shortcomings do not exist because instead of using CNJ as a subjob you simply set one spell from that class and that's it!
And yes, I am demanding more magic classes because in case you didn't notice there are only two compared to 5 melees. So it's not ok to want a magic class to have enfeebles as its main tool but it's perfectly ok to have multiple melees that all have the same purpose.
But hey, obviously the guy that believed in THM>WHM to make up for the healing nerf THM received will never get any of this "class uniqueness" business.
I'm actually glad that classes have a purpose now other than exping everything to the top and being a copy/paste of each other.
I've never liked this "everyone gets everything" type of deal in FF games, some limitations need to be applied to make the game actually fun to play instead of a grindfest to reach the cap with every class so you can actually be efficient with your main.
And like it or not, a dedicated healer will ALWAYS be present in any game. Before the nerfs THM was the choice, now CNJ is being changed into the actual healer of the game. I really think you're simply pissed off that your precious THM was nerfed to hell when it could solo anything before.

[Spider-Dan]

You can spin it all you want but /WHM was not the best choice and it did bring shortcomings.

As I just said, it doesn't matter; you can replace BLM/WHM with BLM/RDM in my previous examples and nothing changes. I cited BLM/WHM because (contrary to what you're trying to imply) it was by far the most popular BLM subjob in the 75 era.

And yes, I am demanding more magic classes because in case you didn't notice there are only two compared to 5 melees.

You're right, there are only two mage classes. Maybe they should alleviate that by... severely restricting which roles those two classes can play! Class identity for the win!

But hey, obviously the guy that believed in THM>WHM to make up for the healing nerf THM received will never get any of this "class uniqueness" business.

Are you serious? Your own complaining proves me right!

Perhaps you should have asked for more classes BEFORE you insisted on class identity! I mean, honestly... what did you expect what you were shouting for "more uniqueness" in a game with only two mages?

Have fun lying in the bed you have made.

I've never liked this "everyone gets everything" type of deal in FF games, some limitations need to be applied to make the game actually fun to play instead of a grindfest to reach the cap with every class so you can actually be efficient with your main.

This is a very interesting statement to make, right as you tell THMs that they should suck it up and level another class if they want to heal.

[Grey Jorildyn]

I'm pretty sure BLM/WHM was the spec of choice for the survivability that Stoneskin provided.

[TacoTaru]

You got Stoneskin /RDM unless I'm getting whooshed.

[Rocl]

Ironically, RDM provides what would be better survivability due to Fast Cast for defensive spells and Phalanx. And Gravity when applicable.

Also every BLM/WHM in the heyday of the 75-era was either pants-on-head retarded or a japanese player pretending to be a white mage nuking in full Errant.

[Grey Jorildyn]

Actually I think you're right. I forget why BLM subs WHM instead of /RDM... more HP maybe? It couldn't be for Erase. Anyway, it's not really important lol

[TacoTaru]

As Rocl put it, they were retarded.

[Corrderio]

Other than SMN and sometimes RDM, was there ever a job that subbed WHM?

[Fievel]

Other than SMN and sometimes RDM, was there ever a job that subbed WHM?

Don't hate on my war/whm tanking skills

[Takiwaki]

Other than SMN and sometimes RDM, was there ever a job that subbed WHM?

BRD, COR?


edit:
wow I just realized this is the 14 thread lol

[Corrderio]

Oh right, BRD totally skipped my mind.