Comments from the Devs

[Takiwaki]

Thank you.

In a game where characters are class-locked, balance is critically important.
In a game where this is not the case, variety is more feasible.

Variety and balance are always competing interests. This should be particularly obvious to XIV players, because when everybody could do everything, what was the number one complaint? "Lack of class identity" (read: no variety).

Job change allows Final Fantasy games to implement more variety without being hamstrung by balance.

I agree with this, but this is also the main issue with SE and the FF style, When SE decides to break away and change their idea that Class/Jobs and Roles are one in the same things will be better, when they decide to change the fundamental issue that every single job has to play the exact same way as every other then we can have progress. Even if every job can do everything it becomes a matter of how its done that can differentiate a Warrior from PLD or one DD from another. IF both Warrior and PLD can tank and tank well if done correctly the only thing that should matter is how its done (playstyle) and the players preference of what he feels like playing at that point in time. The major issue right now is that every single class in the game works with the same basic mechanic. MP TP WS. When that changes SE will finally move forward.

I do disagree a bit though about variety and balance being competing interests. I really do not see why you cant have both. In a sense isnt leveling another job and being able to switch jobs almost the same as leveling an alt? I mean when you think about it how different is it? So you have all jobs available to one character.

[Kaylia]

Thank you.

In a game where characters are class-locked, balance is critically important.
In a game where this is not the case, variety is more feasible.

Balance has nothing to do with your ability to change characters, but how many characters/classes the game expect you to bring to max level.


Now, is it a good thing that a game requires you to level many characters/classes to be efficient? It's a long debate, but if the answers is no, then balances is important.

[Lucavi]

Look at how many thriving MMOs allow job change. Clearly, the fundamental problem with FF MMOs has been exposed.

Your argument is nothing more than a thinly-veiled "why isn't SE making WoW?" appeal. I could use the same logic to argue that all FPS should copy CoD.

You want to talk about proof-in-the-pudding? How's the subscriber retention rate for the hopelessly unbalanced and anachronistic FFXI vs. the endless stream of WoW clones being released? Why would anyone play WoW-but-worse when they can just play WoW? (I mean, unless it's WoW with lightsabers.)

My argument is a "why hasn't SE learned from their mistakes" argument, and less of a "why hasn't SE made WoW fantasy XI" one. You can attempt to make that claim, but that's all that it is; a weak attempt. Nice attempt at strawmanning with an entirely different genre, by the way.

The subscriber retention rate for XI? You mean the same 75k subs with multiple mules? Are we supposed to cheer for that? Is that supposed to be something to be proud of? Seriously? Lets talk profit and subs. How's XIV's profit margins? How's WoW's profit margins? How's Rift's profit margins? How's LOTRO, a free to play MMO,'s profit margins? SW needed, what? 150k subs to start making bank? How many are they up to now? Over a mil? Even on that shitty chart of yours, which clearly states that the figures are inaccurate, you have Rift, LOTRO, and of course, WoW ahead of XI. Plus you have the fact that XI only makes a fraction of its profit off of mule subs, despite them showing up on fancy charts and graphs. Try harder.

You can try to spin it all you want, but reality is reality. XI, otherwise known as Mule Fantasy XI, has the same 75k people playing that played 4 years ago, all propped up with anywhere from 1-4 mules, which skew the subscription rate horribly. The game is run by skeleton crew which pops out minor updates here and there, and hasn't released a true expansion in years. But lets talk XIV, the new kid in town; the golden child that was supposed to do everything better. What wonderful things do you have to say about XIV, SD?

Please, enlighten me.

[Lordender]

Heres my argument as a player and why if they don't change their mindset i'm not going to waste my time on XIV even when the magical 2.0 comes out.

I want to play the classes I want to play because I find the said class fun and should I make the choice to do endgame with those classes I can compete with the best of them meaning its all on my ability as a player to do well, not be artificially handicapped because the job I want to play isn't good for the event. I don't want to have to play a class I don't want to for x-event because "its either come as that job or don't get invited" This same mindset came right over from XI. I don't know any other way to say it really, maybe they need to do a better job at making encounters so it doesn't heavily favor some class and telling me "well, we need 4x the same class" is fucking lazy design.

[Lucavi]

Its okay to be weak and underpowered in SE online titles because you're always free to change classes~!!

[Raldo]

We want class identity! -->
These classes are different enough that some classes are vastly better than others for certain encounters!

Why can't I use my abilities I already learned on other classes? -->
Why do I have to level everything in order to be useful?

I want to be able to equip anything, anytime! -->
Why can mages wear heavy armor? and/or Why is my gear gimped?

Sadly, I'm not sure SE has a winning option for many complaints.

[Draylo]

Spoiler: show

http://users.telenet.be/mmodata/Charts/Subs-2.png

Age of Conan?
Warhammer Online?
LOTRO?

Please let me know which of those "don't count."

The point is that if you build a game that's Yet Another WoW Clone, people will buy it, play it, get tired of it, and go back to the real thing. If your goal as an MMO developer is pump-and-dump, then that's a great strategy. Otherwise, unless you have a property like Star Wars (and sometimes even if you do), you are going to have problems keeping your subs.

This ^

[Draylo]

Its okay to be weak and underpowered in SE online titles because you're always free to change classes~!!

What job is truly weak and underpowered to the point of being completely useless?

[Achitophel]

I can see how bringing up subscription numbers can be useful in making a good point (not a good argument, but a good point) in some instances, but really....Jersey Shore. Survivor. Apprentice.

Popularity = income, yes. It doesn't always equal quality, though, so why are people's arguments revolving around it as if it does?

[Charismatic]

What job is truly weak and underpowered to the point of being completely useless?

PUG? Unless you're talking about FFXI... then probably PUP, idk. It sure was at one point but it's been a while since I played, maybe it has a use for something now.

Also BST.

[Draylo]

PUG? Unless you're talking about FFXI... then probably PUP, idk. It sure was at one point but it's been a while since I played, maybe it has a use for something now.

Also BST.

Nah I meant FFXI, as we don't know the job system for FFXIV yet. PUP isn't that weak, although it it close it can deal decent dmg with proper builds w/Stringging Pummel/V smite or the puppets nukes(which was the case in the old days mostly, they outnuked blm on ZNMs from what I recall). BST had its events where it shined, solo play.

[Rocl]

In what case would you bring a Scholar over a proper BLM or WHM? :\

It's even down to one unique Voidwatch proc lulz

[Draylo]

Embrave for them zergs ! SCH was pretty beastly in the past, now its use has lessened a lot I'll admit but it isn't completely useless.

[Corrderio]

We want class identity!

This is something I'd kill to hear form Yoshida. If he thinks as of now if classes are truly unique or not. That would probably be the make or break point for me.

[Spider-Dan]

The subscriber retention rate for XI? You mean the same 75k subs with multiple mules? Are we supposed to cheer for that? Is that supposed to be something to be proud of? Seriously?

So wait... when it's convenient for you, it's all about the money and the scoreboard. But when I point out that virtually every non-Korean MMO in the post-WoW era has all the staying power of a yearly Madden release, suddenly now it matters where the money is coming from?

Tell me: which subscription dollars are worth more money than others? Is the money from a second XI account somehow harder for SE to spend?

Lets talk profit and subs. How's XIV's profit margins? How's WoW's profit margins? How's Rift's profit margins? How's LOTRO, a free to play MMO,'s profit margins?

What do any of those things have to do with mules and secondary accounts? Money is money is money. If you want to make a WoW clone and go from 0 - 800k - 100k subs in the space of a year, go nuts. I don't think that's a viable long-term strategy.

Even on that shitty chart of yours, which clearly states that the figures are inaccurate, you have Rift, LOTRO, and of course, WoW ahead of XI.

I eagerly await your citation of superior MMO statistics. It should be trivial for you, since you've been talking about "mule subscriptions" and "profit margins" as if you actually know something and are not just pulling numbers out of your ass.

Oh, and if you are going to babble about "profit margins" at the same time you are citing LOTRO as being "ahead of XI," a seemingly relevant detail is that LOTRO was steadily cruising at a cool ~50% of XI's subscription (<--- this word is important) rate until it went F2P, at which point the number of active accounts (NOT subscriptions) inexplicably jumped over XI's.

And you're actually mentioning LOTRO as something you think proves your point? Please.

But lets talk XIV, the new kid in town; the golden child that was supposed to do everything better. What wonderful things do you have to say about XIV, SD?

Oh, XIV has certainly failed... but not because they didn't copy WoW enough. Tanaka was bent on ignoring the lessons that SE learned from XI. And had SE taken your advice and just released a reskinned WoW (because hey, why try to make something new when you can just copy what's making money today?), XIV would still be nearly as dead as it was a week ago. Again, why play WoW-but-worse when you can play actual-WoW or WoW-with-Jedis?

I also find it interesting that you place so much weight on copying success, yet I rarely hear you laud the interminable grinding that is integral to the hugely successful Korean MMOs. I guess only the champ counts?

[Spider-Dan]

Balance has nothing to do with your ability to change characters, but how many characters/classes the game expect you to bring to max level.

It's more than that.

In class-locked games, slight variances in balance mean you might bitch and moan, but you still work with it; you have too much invested in a character (be it exclusive gear, crafting levels, faction status, area access, etc.) to simply reroll after each patch.

In FF, if one job is slightly better than another, and you have them both leveled, you simply change jobs. The threshold for "unbalanced" is made incredibly small; if people who have multiple jobs leveled all switch to the job that is 2% better, the end result is that the 2%-worse job is now considered "useless."

[Ambrosia]

Yeah I think at this point in time very little if anything can be said about FFXIV as being wonderful. That ship has long sailed off towards the sunset considering that close to 100% of the game is going to get revamped one way or another (some may be minor changes others will be much more drastic). I think a more accurate statement now would be: Let's talk about FFXIV Version 2.0, the new kid that will be moving to a neighborhood near you sometime 4th quarter 2012/1st quarter 2013. This will be the golden child that will supposedly do everything better (or almost everything). What wonderful things do you have to say about FFXIV Version 2.0?




Well at this point in time very little I guess. There is one photo showing in game footage... I think. There is one link on the official site that takes you to Version 2.0. And there are a couple of .pdf roadmaps and several drawings. I would say that information will most likely be sparse between the updates that are still coming for Version 1.0. Things may pick up by the time summer hits. The current game will get ported over to the version 2.0 client sometime in April/May and have its first worldwide promotional trailer at E3 which is happening June 5-7. It would be nice if they had something like an hour long discussion like Arena Net has had in the past with conventions, but I know this probably will not happen. I hope at least the trailer is a good 10-15 minutes and not some teaser trailer lasting only 30-60 seconds.

[Cichy]

Yeah I think at this point in time very little if anything can be said about FFXIV as being wonderful. That ship has long sailed off towards the sunset considering that close to 100% of the game is going to get revamped one way or another (some may be minor changes others will be much more drastic).I think a more accurate statement now would be: Let's talk about FFXIV Version 2.0, the new kid that will be moving to a neighborhood near you sometime 4th quarter 2012/1st quarter 2013. This will be the golden child that will supposedly do everything better (or almost everything). What wonderful things do you have to say about FFXIV Version 2.0?




Well at this point in time very little I guess. There is one photo showing in game footage... I think. There is one link on the official site that takes you to Version 2.0. And there are a couple of .pdf roadmaps and several drawings. I would say that information will most likely be sparse between the updates that are still coming for Version 1.0. Things may pick up by the time summer hits. The current game will get ported sometime in April/May and have its first worldwide promotional trailer at E3 which is happening June 5-7. It would be nice if they had something like an hour long discussion like Arena Net has had in the past with conventions, but I know this probably will not happen. I hope at least the trailer is a good 10-15 minutes and not some teaser trailer lasting only 30-60 seconds.

Pretty much, all this discussion right now is just beating a dead horse. We know 14 failed, has shitty subs, was shitty all around, etc, etc. There's nothing else to do but wait.

[Kaylia]

It's more than that.

In class-locked games, slight variances in balance mean you might bitch and moan, but you still work with it; you have too much invested in a character (be it exclusive gear, crafting levels, faction status, area access, etc.) to simply reroll after each patch.

In FF, if one job is slightly better than another, and you have them both leveled, you simply change jobs. The threshold for "unbalanced" is made incredibly small; if people who have multiple jobs leveled all switch to the job that is 2% better, the end result is that the 2%-worse job is now considered "useless."

I still don't understand why you believe it's any different. If a class perform 2% better than another, it will get picked if that 2% is needed. Not that anyone was ever picked in FFXI because of that 2% dps increase, you were looking at "This melee class give 10 times more tp", "they can't tank for shit", or "it does half the dmg this other class do".

Here is an interview with one of the top guild in WoW that illustrate what you think doesn't happen.
http://www.mmo-champion.com/content/...way-Blue-Posts

Q: It seems like more alts were part of the raid than mains for this dungeon. Is this correct?
A: Yes, it is. For the Spine, 3 of the Mages were alts and 2 of the resto Shamans were alts. We wanted to prepare for the unexpected. So since FL, we consistently farmed for alts.

Q: Is there a reason why you did that?
A: Every patch, we as a guild, had problems with limited roster. However, we feel that composition is far more important than the number of raiders. Say we have 25 people online. If those 25 people have access to most of the classes, creating a fitting raid composition becomes very easy.

For DS, each member had 2-4 classes ready for progression.

Q: For this raid, class specs seemed very critical. Can you give us a word on that?
A: For tanks, Paladins were far inferior to DKs and Druids. Thus, prot Paladins were benched. Also, enhancement Shamans and Hunters had to be benched for Madness encounter as the pets weren't attacking tendons. For healers, holy Paladins and resto Shamans were good. Other healing classes had to be on stand-by. And for caster DPS, boomkins had to be benched most of the time. I want to thank all of them for sticking around for the entire duration of the fights.

The differences between "job changes" and "alt" is purely technical, and given a proper gameplay, they could be the exact same. It has nothing to do with game balance. The biggest difference between both is typically loot distribution, but it could be solved easily by allowing people to trade the gears they win to "alt". There is also things like inventory, achievements, what you have to repeat, etc, but in every cases, it's just a question of game design.

[Lordender]

Yeah I think at this point in time very little if anything can be said about FFXIV as being wonderful. That ship has long sailed off towards the sunset considering that close to 100% of the game is going to get revamped one way or another (some may be minor changes others will be much more drastic). I think a more accurate statement now would be: Let's talk about FFXIV Version 2.0, the new kid that will be moving to a neighborhood near you sometime 4th quarter 2012/1st quarter 2013. This will be the golden child that will supposedly do everything better (or almost everything). What wonderful things do you have to say about FFXIV Version 2.0?




Well at this point in time very little I guess. There is one photo showing in game footage... I think. There is one link on the official site that takes you to Version 2.0. And there are a couple of .pdf roadmaps and several drawings. I would say that information will most likely be sparse between the updates that are still coming for Version 1.0. Things may pick up by the time summer hits. The current game will get ported over to the version 2.0 client sometime in April/May and have its first worldwide promotional trailer at E3 which is happening June 5-7. It would be nice if they had something like an hour long discussion like Arena Net has had in the past with conventions, but I know this probably will not happen. I hope at least the trailer is a good 10-15 minutes and not some teaser trailer lasting only 30-60 seconds.

Totally agree, none of us really know how the game is going to be in the new client/software, what kinda things that will be possible in terms of game balance/mechanics. I mean is the current balance of the game a product of just shitty speghetti code? soft/hardware limitations or is it just a lack of thought from the dev-team when making current content? I think a lot of us who post here are just skeptics at this point because we only have SE's history to go on. I am hoping that they did learn about balance from the past by really studying the mistakes from XI and making the class system interesting instead of having a couple that just completely blow the others out of the water and we end up in a musical chair scenario where after every patch a new flavor of the patch class is just so far ahead of everything else.