Comments from the Devs

[Corrderio]

The main difference to me is that in FFXI/FFXIV it's actively encouraged to level multiple things (or more accurately, required in order to perform at your peak)

For the most part yes, but in XI it was for mostly SJs (/NIN, /SAM, etc.) and in XIV it was to have more abilities (Blindside, Second Wind, Keen Flurry, Cure, etc.). And in both games after you get to a certain point leveling that class doesn't do much for your main. (In XIV it was once abilities all became exclusive to that class, mostly around the mid 30s).

However, that's not the point people are making. The point is that after every update it's a roulette and one class becomes supreme over them all and unless you have that class leveled, your chances of doing the little content there is in this game are piss poor.

1.18 - Don't have ARC leveled? Tough shit.
1.19 - Don't have LNC leveled? Sux2BU
1.20 - Don't have ARC or THM to 50 yet? GTFO

That's the problem right now with this game. If SE expects the casual market to accept this game, this needs to change.

[Jamison]

As a supposedly more casual-friendly game, simply saying "well you can go level this class now, too" is counterproductive. Many players feel it a slap in the face to have capped one class only to be told "guess what? that's no where near good enough!". I don't mind that someone with the time and inclination to cap every class has a better character, but in XIV it is given *way* too much emphasis.

In theory, jobs takes care of this problem completely. They've said they'll be balancing group content based on jobs, and assuming that doesn't get too screwed up, it'll become a non-issue. 1.20 made this whole situation a lot better anyways, I can't think of any class you absolutely have to get over 25 or 30 for; some quite a bit less. It doesn't feel anywhere near as overwhelming.

[Corrderio]

In theory yes, however we're still in the dark on what jobs will exactly do. For all we know BRD could still have similar DPS to other jobs and be desired more because of their distance safety net/ease of combos, or another job will be the top of the totem pole and people will be pigeonholed into that job if they want to do content.

[Elcura]

For the most part yes, but in XI it was for mostly SJs (/NIN, /SAM, etc.) and in XIV it was to have more abilities (Blindside, Second Wind, Keen Flurry, Cure, etc.). And in both games after you get to a certain point leveling that class doesn't do much for your main. (In XIV it was once abilities all became exclusive to that class, mostly around the mid 30s).

However, that's not the point people are making. The point is that after every update it's a roulette and one class becomes supreme over them all and unless you have that class leveled, your chances of doing the little content there is in this game are piss poor.

1.18 - Don't have ARC leveled? Tough shit.
1.19 - Don't have LNC leveled? Sux2BU
1.20 - Don't have ARC or THM to 50 yet? GTFO

That's the problem right now with this game. If SE expects the casual market to accept this game, this needs to change.

THM, CNJ, GLA and MRD have always had their places.

MRD in 1.19 was useful (and strong). CNJ is always useful (even more so after 1.19). So is GLA. THM less so than the rest, weakest during 1.19, but still useful for shitty/starter Ifrit groups.

A rule of MMOs is if you pick a tank, healer or support class, chances are you'll never get left out. It's the DDs that need the love and work, flavour of the month is always to do with damage.

[Lucavi]

Assuming you are a player who has the time to max-out multiple classes, because those are the only people that matter in the world and the only customers worth catering to.

That's how you rake in the subscriptions, yo! Cater to the 1%

@Cichy: I share your sentiment, and your passion regarding tightly-defined roles regarding each class, but the problem is two-fold.

1) SE doesn't know how to, or is reluctant to create enough abilities (useful or situational) for each class to truly distinguish them from another.
2) The balance issue, of course. SE doesn't seem to design their content around "how do you kill a mob", but more about "said mob has XXX HP; drain it all and you win". If there's a mob that spams a shit ton of AOE whenever you get within 2 feet of him, well, tough titties, in SE's eyes. That cock-blocks more than half of the classes for whatever game they're designing, and this wouldn't be a problem for one or two fights, but this is quite often the golden standard for SE's design policy. I'm starting to forget why its so hard to achieve some kind of happy medium between individualistic fights where a type of damage is preferred, and generally tough fights where no damage type is preferred, but there are enough challenging mechanics in the fight to trouble any type of class, ranged or otherwise. Fights in other games that come to mind are any with "hotspots" - parts of the floor or environment that become spectacularly lethal if stood on, and constantly move, or fights with constantly shifting hate, or fights with adds that spawn in all directions.

As I type this, I'm reminded of the Matron Verosa fight in Rift. For those that played that game, can you imagine SE's take on a fight like that? One invincible mob for most of the fight, with two other mobs that must be beaten that all have different attack types and aggro patterns, and then you have to fight all 3 at the same time? That fight incorporates tons of now-basic strategies - cleaves (so don't stand at the front), explosive charge attacks (so don't stack together when this mob charges), high-damage attacks (so focus fire on this mob when I say so, then quickly switch) - all while the tank must hold hate on everyone at the same time. I also remember that fight bodying lots and lots of players back in the day.

I can't imagine how SE would actually make that fight work, whether due to the engine, game design or whatever, but it'd sure be nice to have some of those mechanics around instead of "kite the boss while the arrow guys put arrows into the boss. Again." tactics.

[shidobu]

just wanna point out it takes nearly less than a week to get a 50 class if your dedicated
there is no excuse to not have multiple 50's in this shitty game atm, when there is not much content keeping you busy.
Your either lvling dow or doing 1 of 3 events (moogles,ifrit,darkhold). Sitting around complaining that you can't do anything is just retarded when you have the means to lvl in this game solo. Yea leves suck but its better than nothing. And they are better now than they have ever been.

[Lucavi]

I don't think that's a valid excuse for the merits of a class system. "Not much content keeping you busy, so level them all!" should never be an excuse that comes to mind from the playerbase on why someone should have every, or multiple classes maxed in a paid MMO. What the hell are you paying for if there's "not much content keeping you busy", then?

[Corrderio]

MRD in 1.19 was useful (and strong). CNJ is always useful (even more so after 1.19). So is GLA. THM less so than the rest, weakest during 1.19, but still useful for shitty/starter Ifrit groups.

Well I didn't include GLA mostly because you bring them to tank, not to damage. And you're right about MRD being godly in Strongholds (I keep forgetting about them since I hardly did them).

[Hiroishime]

You didn't hear Cichy? We're up to SIX Archers now.

Lol. there is actually achievement for the under 10min kill.

[Raldo]

So, you agree with Spider-Dan that imbalance are fine when you can switch your classes, but they are not fine when you can switch your characters?

Oh, is that what he said at some point? You all were wall-o'-texting the last page or so and I glazed over most of it; certainly didn't see that. I only caught the argument that switching characters in other MMOs was somehow very similar to FFXI/FFXIV's leveling multiple jobs and felt the need to butt in.

/shrug I came in to this discussion late. Balance is important. I thought Spider-Dan was saying that balance to the point where one class is not favored above others was highly unlikely and/or impossible so long as they all function differently, which I completely agree with. That said, I'm not even sure what the core of this whole discussion is about anymore.

Yeesh, I'm almost glad that I'm not in a linkshell right now; my archer is only 20-something.

[shidobu]

I don't think that's a valid excuse for the merits of a class system. "Not much content keeping you busy, so level them all!" should never be an excuse

Agreed, but why pigeon hold yourself to one class when there is multiple classes to experience. LS mate who recently only had Gladiator only just finished 50 archer last night and had the time of this life leveling it (his words). Im not saying you have to use the class but, it be silly to not level it because your a purest gladiator or purest con.

What the hell are you paying for if there's "not much content keeping you busy", then?

That's a good fucking question but I'm actually having fun but thats only because of the people im playing with.
Im not gonna knock anybody for wanting to play 1 class and 1 class only but. Im sure as hell gonna have issues with the person that wants to do events on a high end lvl that can't be flexible/adaptable as the rest of the shell. If you expect to come and be a part of a group effort, you better be putting in the same amount of effort as everyone else has. That includes having max 50's for every event.

[Lucavi]

1) A valid point, but nowhere did I say that anyone would want to pigeon hole themselves into playing only one class. I said, specifically that "if a person wants to play a certain class above all others, and that class is underpowered due to the game being unbalanced, that person may not have any further reason to play that game, much less pay for it". Any logical person who decided to continue playing the game would level multiple classes, but if someone purchased the game under the premise of being able to enjoy playing one singular, particular class (and you'd be surprised at how many people will do this in games, much less MMOs, and there's nothing wrong with it), it is their choice to later switch classes to try them all out. Every person who has ever played a class-locked MMO has done the same: that's why there are alts. But if that person bought the game for a particular class, and it turns out that the class is weak because the devs either don't know what the fuck to do with it (see: Drg for half a decade) or because the devs have no idea how to balance multiple classes that possess only thinly-veiled differences (what has been seen thus far in XIV, and to an extent, in XI), you're going to see a pissed off person, who may decide to roll out and play a different game, instead of just shrugging shoulders and switching to a flavor-of-the-month job. As a company, you're only hurting your subs and sales by not attempting to balance classes to keep them all relatively useful for all sorts of events.

2) I'd knock someone for being that way as well, especially if they want to get into end-game action. What I wouldn't knock, however, is a person in XI who leveled bard, white mage and paladin to help the team, yet wanted to play Drg forever, and either barely or never gets to go to any fight of worth because the devs don't know the first thing about balance, so that player gets burned out of constantly doing content on jobs that they don't want to, and quits the game, never looking back. Even if you enjoy other jobs, most everyone has -that- job; the job that they find more enjoyable than any other, and the job they most associate with. If you never get to use -that- job for anything of worth, you're going to hold a grudge eventually. That's not a good way for a company to sell and hold subs, which is why Blizz tried so hard to boost up jobs (and took it a step farther by even trying to balance specs themselves, for largely the same reasons) that were floundering behind. Its why games like Rift tried so hard out of the gate to achieve balance (even though they failed out of the gate with classes like Sab blowing everything up) and made so many constant patches.

If nothing else, that kind of attention to lesser-used classes shows the players that the devs are on their side. How many people who played XI (and by a lesser extent) XIV for years actually felt that SE was on their side? How many felt like SE wasn't just incorporating their own vision into everything; players be damned?

[Draylo]

just wanna point out it takes nearly less than a week to get a 50 class if your dedicated
there is no excuse to not have multiple 50's in this shitty game atm, when there is not much content keeping you busy.
Your either lvling dow or doing 1 of 3 events (moogles,ifrit,darkhold). Sitting around complaining that you can't do anything is just retarded when you have the means to lvl in this game solo. Yea leves suck but its better than nothing. And they are better now than they have ever been.

How about the fact that its extremely tedious? lol

[Spider-Dan]

And even if they were the only players that matter, I'm not sure half of them actually enjoy all that grind. They do it because they "have to" to be efficient.

I imagine they do it for the same reasons that the players in the top WoW guilds maintain 2-4 characters at endgame (as you cited).

If WoW's balance is semi-ideal, and even endgame players in that game feel the need to maintain multiple classes, why should FF even aim for single-class solutions?

[shidobu]

How about the fact that its extremely tedious? lol

whats tedious? lvling lol is no where near as bad as XI was back before ToAu.
ur join date says july 2007(before this makes me look like a jerk i spent 3- years @ killingifrit before ever coming to BG) so im not 100% sure if u ever got to experience the joy of crab parties or decro weapon parties, that was fucking tedious.

every party in this game is like a fucking bird party, only thing i find mind numbingly tedious is crafting and disciples of the land jobs.

[solracht]

If WoW's balance is semi-ideal, and even endgame players in that game feel the need to maintain multiple classes, why should FF even aim for single-class solutions?

Because 99% of the population in Warcraft can and does get by with a single class, most of the time even with the specialization of their choice. This last part is key. Warcraft does have a form of "job change", and balance is so good for some classes that you can still pick whatever spec you want, for the content that 99% of the population sees.

I don't know when the last time you played Warcraft was (if ever), but you keep on making a lot of comments about it that make absolutely no sense at all.

[Spider-Dan]

Oh, is that what he said at some point?

That's actually not what I was saying. I was saying that it is inherently more difficult to balance the game when players have very little incentive to stay on one class. There is not (and almost certainly never will be) a Need/Greed system that prioritizes drops based on what class you are currently on, and outside of that, if you have multiple jobs leveled, the tiniest discrepancy in performance can convince you to switch.

But most of this balance argument seems silly anyway. For all the talk about how amazing and wonderful WoW's balance is, do you think there is any less bitching about balance on Blizzard's forums? No matter how well you balance, people will always complain; hell, people complained about CNJ vs. THM when the only real difference was cone vs. radial (and both classes were dramatically superior healers compared to now).

[Fievel]

people will always complain

Pretty much sums it up, no matter what they do people will always complain. Doesn't matter what game or what company.

[shidobu]

Btw are we getting anything this month or all new content for Feb?

[TacoTaru]

Afaik nothing until Feb, except what is coming 1.20b (unless that already happened and I didn't pay attention).