Comments from the Devs

[Spider-Dan]

Because 99% of the population in Warcraft can and does get by with a single class, most of the time even with the specialization of their choice. This last part is key. Warcraft does have a form of "job change", and balance is so good for some classes that you can still pick whatever spec you want, for the content that 99% of the population sees.

So on the one hand, you are claiming that all but a tiny minority of players are happily class-locked and dedicated to their class. But when I say that players in class-locked games are usually confined to their main (and are therefore more likely to work through issues rather than reroll), Kaylia posts an interview showing that top players commonly(?) maintain endgame alts.

So which one is it? Is maintaining endgame alts the rare obsession of the super elite or is it commonly accepted practice for Serious Players? Or do you just literally mean that since WoW has 10m players, 100k are serious and 9.9m are casual?

[solracht]

I'm claiming that unless you're someone who is doing heroic modes (hardest content in that game) in first few weeks after they're released, you can do the raids as any class you want, and sometimes even the spec you want.

To clarify on your quote (I guess I could've worded things better), I don't know whether most players have endgame-ready alts or not (most people probably do, considering how easy it is to keep multiple characters geared), the point is that you don't need to use these alts if you don't want to, and you certainly don't need to forsake your main in order to see the event: you can actually play the class you want.

[Grey Jorildyn]

I think one of the disconnects to this entire argument is trying to compare the WoW community to the FFXIV community in terms of their job leveling habits.

It is perhaps the exception, not the rule, to have raid-ready alts in WoW or even Rift, but in FFXIV, it is the rule to do so. But you can't use those WoW players that level multiple classes for raids to the casual playerbase of FFXIV, as if it ought to be what is done in the game. Those aren't even the same type of players, and they certainly don't play the same type of game.

[Spider-Dan]

I think one of the disconnects to this entire argument is trying to compare the WoW community to the FFXIV community in terms of their job leveling habits.

It is perhaps the exception, not the rule, to have raid-ready alts in WoW or even Rift, but in FFXIV, it is the rule to do so.

And this is precisely my point.

In a game designed to encourage easy and frequent class-changing (as opposed to, say, having a respec fee), not only is it less of a "problem" for specific classes to be favored for certain activities, but it's also inherently more difficult to keep players from changing classes to whatever has any advantage. The only real barrier is whether or not they happen to have already leveled that class, and in a content-lean game like XIV, there are a lot of people with nothing to do but level up classes.

[solracht]

Why is that relevant? Said leveling habits were born because of the lack of balance we're discussing.

[Draylo]

whats tedious? lvling lol is no where near as bad as XI was back before ToAu.
ur join date says july 2007(before this makes me look like a jerk i spent 3- years @ killingifrit before ever coming to BG) so im not 100% sure if u ever got to experience the joy of crab parties or decro weapon parties, that was fucking tedious.

every party in this game is like a fucking bird party, only thing i find mind numbingly tedious is crafting and disciples of the land jobs.

Yes I have been playing long before my join date, I know how tedious FFXI was. I meant leve exping is slow, I know xp parties were fast but I had trouble finding them before it went P2P and I cancelled after so I dunno how it is now.

[Spider-Dan]

Why is that relevant? Said leveling habits were born because of the lack of balance we're discussing.

Then why are there so many people with 50PGL? No one ever leveled PGL for balance reasons. Same goes for THM in 1.18 or 1.19, or CNJ pre-1.18.

There were plenty of people with ARC leveled before 1.18, or MRD/LNC leveled before 1.19. A lot of people didn't level classes for balance reasons, but rather because:

a) they were bored and had nothing else to do in game, or
b) they wanted a higher-rank ability from a particular class

[Lordender]

So all I get from reading most of these replies is that lots XI/XIV players are willing to accept the typical status quo from SE when it comes to class balance that is full of second rate game development content. SE is always going to play second fiddle to the big boys if they don't have a magical plan to have these classes/content balanced so it doesn't heavily favor class stacking by 2.0.

Now that people are paying to play people are going to expect class balance to be taken a hell of a lot more seriously while having little patience. Waiting 3 months to see if their class lands on flavor of the patch because SE spun the prices right wheel to see which class lands on the 1$ mark to advance to the "show case showdown" isn't going to cut it.

[Niiro]

Then why are there so many people with 50PGL? No one ever leveled PGL for balance reasons. Same goes for THM in 1.18 or 1.19, or CNJ pre-1.18.

There were plenty of people with ARC leveled before 1.18, or MRD/LNC leveled before 1.19. A lot of people didn't level classes for balance reasons, but rather because:

a) they were bored and had nothing else to do in game, or
b) they wanted a higher-rank ability from a particular class

Or, and I know this sounds crazy but try and stay with me here, they liked the job.

After they found out they'd never be using it at any event worth a damn I'm sure they were very disappointed (I was).

Most people would consider that a bad thing.

[Lucavi]

Because 99% of the population in Warcraft can and does get by with a single class, most of the time even with the specialization of their choice. This last part is key. Warcraft does have a form of "job change", and balance is so good for some classes that you can still pick whatever spec you want, for the content that 99% of the population sees.

I don't know when the last time you played Warcraft was (if ever), but you keep on making a lot of comments about it that make absolutely no sense at all.

SD really is all about designing MMO policies for the 1%. I said it as a joke at first but, Jesus... You have fun there, SD, designing your MMO to cater to the hardest of core XIV players that will lap up anything SE spoonfeeds them so they can claim to be "first at it". The biggest raiders in WoW - the ones with multiple elite raid-geared characters - are getting paid each and every time they are first to clear the brand new content. How many XIV players are getting paid to clear... well... anything in XIV?. Further, these big bad raiders in WoW aren't class-stacking at all; they have all of those alts so they can quickly swap in and swap out different classes to try on different bosses. That is completely different from SE gamer's traditions of throwing a single class in droves at a boss in an attempt to burn it down; something that the "hardcore" in XI and XIV have been doing since the concept developed. See: any number of "burns" throughout history, and the latest Archer and Thaum-burns. It is also completely different from XI player's traditions of denying anyone who doesn't bring a specific class to an event, from participating in that event. At the very least, every class in WoW has a welcome place in raids, and many specs are welcome as well. Those specs that aren't as desired in PVE Raids are usually desired in high-end PVP (something that can also bring players money and relative fame, and again, something that is a completely alien concept in SE's MMOs), so it all pretty much balances out.

So lets see: WoW's is done to try different classes quickly and efficiently on each different fight (and there are a lot in each raid - far more than the true end-game bosses in XI/XIV) so they can get the first kills and clears and, thus, make that paycheck and grab all the prestige. SE's is done because people can't do it otherwise (nowadays), and it was traditionally done to get the event fucking over with so they can either do another, or do something else. Even I remember the days of mnkburning the shit out of Kirin to get through the 10 pop sets that the LS had gathered up. You're making a lameduck attempt to compare two barely-linked concepts with entirely different justifications and methods altogether.

Next you're going to start telling me that SE's normal end game events, when not bugged to hell and can actually be defeated in a natural, non-exploitative manner, are as challenging as Day 1 Hard Mode kills, when not bugged themselves (which they sometimes are - Blizzard is NOT perfect in that regard).

[Spider-Dan]

Or, and I know this sounds crazy but try and stay with me here, they liked the job.

Unless you're talking strictly about day-one PGLs, I don't see how liking a particular class is incompatible with leveling multiple classes because there's nothing else to do.

In other words, there's no way to tell how many people leveled up a bunch of classes out of boredom (which is a lack-of-content issue), and how many leveled them solely in pursuit of the flavor-of-the-month (which is a balance issue). And to my point, if you leveled ARC to 50 for 1.18, you still have 50ARC now, which means you have significantly reduced incentive to stick with MRD or LNC in 1.20 (even if you leveled one of them specifically for 1.19).

[Charismatic]

Or, and I know this sounds crazy but try and stay with me here, they liked the job.

After they found out they'd never be using it at any event worth a damn I'm sure they were very disappointed (I was).

Most people would consider that a bad thing.

Most people aren't Spider-Dan retarded.

[Lucavi]

Unless you're talking strictly about day-one PGLs, I don't see how liking a particular class is incompatible with leveling multiple classes because there's nothing else to do.

In other words, there's no way to tell how many people leveled up a bunch of classes out of boredom (which is a lack-of-content issue), and how many leveled them solely in pursuit of the flavor-of-the-month (which is a balance issue). And to my point, if you leveled ARC to 50 for 1.18, you still have 50ARC now, which means you have significantly reduced incentive to stick with MRD or LNC in 1.20 (even if you leveled one of them specifically for 1.19).

Are you as retarded as a bag of autistic infants, SD? Do you really mean to infer that if a person bought the game to punch shit as a pug, leveled pug to 50 with the intentions of punching the biggest, baddest dragons and going through the storyline (praised to the high heavens because, by God, SE wrote it!) as a character that is known for punching the shit out of things, that they are not going to be absolutely livid when they find out that not only do the players themselves not want them going as a class that punches shit for just about every end-game event in the book, but that the actual developers of content seem to agree with the players, considering that there are a select few events where punching shit in the face is actually a viable tactic? You think every person like this is just going to herp derp switch to a bandwagon class and everything's fine and dandy? Do you really think everyone loves the game that much to where they'd instantly switch with no gripes and continue paying and playing? Do you really not think that some people simply bought the game for its pretty graphics and to Punch. Shit.? Fuck, you can't even punch other people right now, so there's another incentive taken away right there.

You take away that punching from some people, and you take away that "validated punching"; the punching that comes from clearing tough bosses with friends and saving the world and whatever, and you're going to turn away some subscribers. Multiply that times however many jobs you put in the game that are horribly unbalanced. Its simple fucking elementary logic. Logic 101. Class dismissed.

Please answer the question.

[Spider-Dan]

Lucavi, when you learn to read, it would be great if you could read the first seven words of my post before you reply to it.

It should be pretty easy since you actually quoted it in your reply.

Oh, and just for fun: since you are always busy screaming that all FF MMO content is mindless and stupid, I would greatly appreciate if you could expand upon exactly what content there is in XIV that is too complicated and/or difficult to be defeated by PGL. Because otherwise, it would seem that there is no balance problem at all. Thanks.

[Lucavi]

Oh I see it. I see your Day one Pugs. That's the fucking point; by admitting to that, you're admitting that SE continues to potentially alieanate many, MANY players to their online games. What a brilliant tactic for retaining subs. Why, its no surprise at all why they needed to reboot XIV.

[TacoTaru]

I see we are back to "that's a drawing, not an in-game screenshot/sky is falling since THM no longer has Sacrifice" level of conversation.

[Spider-Dan]

Oh I see it. I see your Day one Pugs. That's the fucking point; by admitting to that, you're admitting that SE continues to potentially alieanate many, MANY players to their online games. What a brilliant tactic for retaining subs. Why, its no surprise at all why they needed to reboot XIV.

They're rebooting XIV regardless, and in case you haven't noticed, they just finished revamping the classes well ahead of that reboot. If your argument is that everyone with 50PGL bought the game because they wanted to punch things, you're delusional.

But I'm still waiting for an answer: how can it be possible for a strictly-PvE game to have a balance issue if the game is so easy and simplistic that everyone can do everything?

I look forward to you resolving your opposing positions.

[Corrderio]

Because melee are shafted in the current content? If that's not a balance issue, I don't know what is.

[Grey Jorildyn]

It is certainly a "balance" issue, but not with classes so much as content design.

That's actually a problem in a lot of games. TOR is certainly no exception to that either, even being the newest, shiniest thing on the market. Same problems arise and no one's really figured out a solid way to fix it.

[Cichy]

It is certainly a "balance" issue, but not with classes so much as content design.

That's actually a problem in a lot of games. TOR is certainly no exception to that either, even being the newest, shiniest thing on the market. Same problems arise and no one's really figured out a solid way to fix it.

Dint Yoshi say also that fights like Ifrit and Moogle will be taken out later? I imagine same thing will happen with Darkhold also. So shit we've seen is just temporary. Yeah I would like more content and stuff right now but Yoshi has to look at a big picture and he's the only one that knows where this is going.