Comments from the Devs

[Thiefami]

Truth is, a lot of players pick classes because of how they look and feel.
From this point of view, the concept behind a Paladin (knight, defender of innocents, casts holy heals) is completely different from that of FF14 Gladiator (fights in arena, blood and sand, slight roman inspiration). Of course, you're free to disagree.


Point isn't playing just one class, or multiple ones. It's playing what *you* wish to play.
In FFXI, you only needed 1 basic job to unlock all advanced ones. That was a fair price to pay, since you'd also use that basic job for subjob purposes anyway.
What matters is to give players choices, opposite to force them into pre-determined grow paths.



Great. I'm sure he'll keep subscribing for months just because he can't stop having fun "bashing his head against the wall". Or that he'll be glad to be mocked by other because he's using PLD for solo play.
That's the kind of design that keeps games into a niche.



Solved? Not at all.
My point was simply statistic. You wish to bring people to the game? Let them pick (and use) the jobs they like the most from the start.
Endgame, you can create all kind of branches/alt-jobs to appeal the true rpg lovers.

I agree completely with everything you just said. FF online series has a freedom of choice (to switch from class to class at a whim), but at a cost (level classes you have absolutely no interest in). While other mmos you cannot freely switch a class on the fly you will never have to level a class you did not want to play. If they want to attract as many people as possible I would agree with Toms suggestion for endgame. I think when discussing game mechanics people forget that the whole entire point of the road to 2.0 is to win back and claim new players, not cater just to the currents liking.

[Alkar]

The "cost" is absolutely acceptable. There's no reason to force me to make a new character in order to experience a new job/class other than stupid design.
And maybe you find out that playing Conjurer or Thaumaturge isn't exactly an horrible experience and that those classes can be just as entertaining as those you wanted to play right away.
You can reach level 15 in a few hours, it's not an impossible task and if you're not willing to put that kind of effort in an MMO you're probably playing the wrong genre.
Many people tried out certain jobs in FFXI simply to have another option in their subjob list and ended up capping it entirely.
Gameplay wise, classes and jobs cover the same roles. There's no reason to hate Gladiator and like Paladin because both are meant to tank. If you enjoy White Mage you won't find Conjurer boring or horrible. Even Archer and Bard aren't that different in this game, the latter simply has party buffs that improve everyone's performance (including your own).
The only thing I keep seeing here is "Gladiator is not called Paladin so I don't like it". What was Paladin in past games? A warrior with access to White Magic. Can you do that with Gladiator? Yes.
Oh and all you have to do is equip a Conjurer's Arm for the first time and you can have your Paladin.

[miokomioko]

You can reach level 15 in a few hours, it's not an impossible task and if you're not willing to put that kind of effort in an MMO you're probably playing the wrong genre.

I think this is the most relevant response to boo-hoo'ing over needing to level a secondary class to unlock a job. It's unbelievably fast and simple to do so compared to most MMORPGs' tasks for tangibly developing your character in such an effective manner. The time/benefit ratio for cross-class horizontal growth in XIV is undeniably good. I can't say the same for a lot of other games.

[Spider-Dan]

Truth is, a lot of players pick classes because of how they look and feel.
From this point of view, the concept behind a Paladin (knight, defender of innocents, casts holy heals) is completely different from that of FF14 Gladiator (fights in arena, blood and sand, slight roman inspiration). Of course, you're free to disagree.

Fair enough. If you simply don't like the lore of XIV, there's not much that can be said.

Point isn't playing just one class, or multiple ones. It's playing what *you* wish to play.
In FFXI, you only needed 1 basic job to unlock all advanced ones. That was a fair price to pay, since you'd also use that basic job for subjob purposes anyway.

XI:
MNK from 1 to 18
WAR/MNK from 1 to 30
PLD/WAR from 1 to 60
(WAR from 30 to 37, PLD from 60 to 75)

XIV:
CNJ from 1 to 15
(MRD from 1 to 14)
GLA from 1 to 30
PLD or GLA from 30 to XX

XIV's system is dramatically improved from XI's. Not only is the lowbie leveling MUCH faster, but unlocking your job does not send you back to LV1 on that job.

Great. I'm sure he'll keep subscribing for months just because he can't stop having fun "bashing his head against the wall". Or that he'll be glad to be mocked by other because he's using PLD for solo play.

Who will be mocking you when you're soloing? I don't understand your point.

Soloing is the one circumstance where you can be a completely unique butterfly without worrying about the pressures of society. If you prefer to solo on PLD, great! If you want to solo on GLA instead, also great! If you want to solo throwing pebbles as ARM, go nuts! Why would anyone else care?

My point was simply statistic. You wish to bring people to the game? Let them pick (and use) the jobs they like the most from the start.

This wasn't the case in XI; even WoW has an "advanced" class that you have to unlock.

In any case, I think XIV's system is completely fair when considering that there is no way you can be productive in this game while leveling exactly one class/job. If a player buys this game with that expectation, he will be disappointed in numerous ways (and rightfully so; that's the antithesis of what FF MMOs are about). So even if you allowed single-class-minded players to unlock PLD on day one, you would not actually improve their gameplay experience at all.

[Corrderio]

I think this is the most relevant response to boo-hoo'ing over needing to level a secondary class to unlock a job. It's unbelievably fast and simple to do so compared to most MMORPGs' tasks for tangibly developing your character in such an effective manner. The time/benefit ratio for cross-class horizontal growth in XIV is undeniably good. I can't say the same for a lot of other games.

To be a tad more accurate, you may need to take that one class you mentioned and/or another to the mid 30s for other skills (Second Wind/Featherfoot for DRG for example). Sure I'm nitpicking, but after awhile, leves extremely boring and PTs in that range are pretty scarce.

[Pooke]

Agreed. In fact the speed that you are able to cap out a class/job is something I would take any day over the insane grind/quests that single class games, such as Aion, do. I'd honestly say I hit 50 on all dow/dom much quicker than coming close to capped level in Aion. There was nothing more mind fucking than grinding low amounts of exp from mobs, repeating quests, or doing solo dungeons that had long lockouts. Each level in Aion from 50 and beyond was well over 100 million exp, and getting 30,000 from soloing mobs, quests offered only a couple million exp...uhg! In FFXIV you can do party or solo play and get great exp either way. Spamming the GC leves for seals now, and I wish I was able to get on those a lot earlier with how much exp you get, plus seals rewards of course!

I was one of those that absolutely despised touching conjurer or thaumaturge, but after giving it a try, they were actually the most fun. Maybe it was because we're in an aoe era for party exp, but it was a heck of a lot of fun, though because of it I hated marauder the most lol (now it is back to being a beast at least as warrior!).

Refusing to even try to level something out of your preference which will benefit your character seems a little silly to me, leveling is so quick, I don't know how it could even be painful. Don't expect positive results if you choose to be stubborn.

[miokomioko]

There's a guy in one of my linkshells that always died from Hellfire because he refused level GLA to get Sentinel, even after it was reduced to Lv.22. Now, because BLM and WHM require Lv.15 PGL, he won't unlock them. "I guess SE doesn't want me to play their new jobs." He has some weird purist role-playing obsession with his character even though he doesn't actually role play. I just don't fucking get why people like that play this game outside of some weird Final Fantasy fanboyism thing...

[Spider-Dan]

To be a tad more accurate, you may need to take that one class you mentioned and/or another to the mid 30s for other skills (Second Wind/Featherfoot for DRG for example). Sure I'm nitpicking, but after awhile, leves extremely boring and PTs in that range are pretty scarce.

Featherfoot is LV2.
Second Wind is LV6.
You could knock both of those out in 10 minutes, including travel time.

And that's not an isolated incident. The highest level non-exclusive abilities are:

Chameleon- LV42 (this, honestly, should be adjusted; it's way too high relative to how many jobs can make use of it)
Sacred Prism- LV34 (worthwhile if your job can equip it, or you lowman a lot)
Sanguine Rite- LV30 (nice for BRD to have, but far from required)
Stoneskin- LV26 (worthwhile for everyone)
Quelling Strike- LV22 (if you would use this, you want Chameleon anyway)
Sentinel- LV22 (worthwhile if your job can equip it)

Everything else of value is sub-20, which is pretty damned reasonable.

[Cichy]

There's a guy in one of my linkshells that always died from Hellfire because he refused level GLA to get Sentinel, even after it was reduced to Lv.22. Now, because BLM and WHM require Lv.15 PGL, he won't unlock them. "I guess SE doesn't want me to play their new jobs." He has some weird purist role-playing obsession with his character even though he doesn't actually role play. I just don't fucking get why people like that play this game outside of some weird Final Fantasy fanboyism thing...

and you get "dude dont tell me how to play"

[Alkar]

To be a tad more accurate, you may need to take that one class you mentioned and/or another to the mid 30s for other skills (Second Wind/Featherfoot for DRG for example). Sure I'm nitpicking, but after awhile, leves extremely boring and PTs in that range are pretty scarce.

That's optional and not a "requirement" to unlock anything. Even then I've hit 30 in less than a week while playing a few hours a day so it can be even faster. Also if new people join there will be more party members available and we all know how quick party exp is in this game.
In comparison getting to level 30 in XI to unlock advanced jobs was a chore back in the day and no one complained about the requirements being "crazy".

[Corrderio]

That's why I said it was nitpicking, but most people would probably expect you to have your classes high enough for the sub class abilities you can use as a job. And it can be a bit annoying having to get an entire new set of gear for roughly 2 abilities.

[Trocian]

Agreed. In fact the speed that you are able to cap out a class/job is something I would take any day over the insane grind/quests that single class games, such as Aion, do.

Except other games try to hide the grind with quests, with FFXIV the only real way to level is to kill monsters over and over again. Leves are kinda like your average "kill 10 of these mobs"-quest, but it's nothing compared to what other games offer.

After playing WoW/WAR/RIFT/Aion/whatever, going back to FFXI-style leveling is really really horrible, regardless of time actually needed to get a level.

[Niiro]

That's why I said it was nitpicking, but most people would probably expect you to have your classes high enough for the sub class abilities you can use as a job. And it can be a bit annoying having to get an entire new set of gear for roughly 2 abilities.

While I agree, it's much easier to bring up low jobs in groups associated by gear.

GLA-MRD-LNC, ARC-PGL, CON-THM

Take one job in the group a couple levels, then the next, then the next, etc. Not only does it save hassle of gearing many jobs at different levels but the horizontal growth is enhanced that much more.

As someone that soloed every job to 50 (yes, you read that correct, never been in a single exp party) given the increased exp from leve mobs and leve completion with 1.21, it's probably even easier.

[Alkar]

Gear is not even an issue with leves giving you gear so often. I haven't purchased anything for my ARC and I got to 34 doing leves just fine.
The only thing I did was camp a couple NMs for bows and that's it.
In 4 leves I hit 34 and I'm almost at 35, exping is so easy now. Add a few behests in there and you get even more.
Hamlet defense will probably be another event that rewards exp in good quantities.

[Meko]

Except other games try to hide the grind with quests, with FFXIV the only real way to level is to kill monsters over and over again. Leves are kinda like your average "kill 10 of these mobs"-quest, but it's nothing compared to what other games offer.

After playing WoW/WAR/RIFT/Aion/whatever, going back to FFXI-style leveling is really really horrible, regardless of time actually needed to get a level.

I agree with this. While it took me a while to adjust to the WoW type, quest driven leveling, I prefer it over camp and grind grouping. When I'm questing, most of the time I don't need anybody else to run with. I don't have to wait on a group or additional members, I can go quest and gain exp/loot/coin etc. Also, in regards to leveling sub classes. This again is something that I didn't see as an issue after playing XI (my first MMO). However, I had a few friends try FFXI that had never played before and every one complained about having to level other classes/jobs. Their mindset was "If I want to be a THF, why do I have to level WAR/NIN/ETC?". While it didn't bother me at the time, it got me thinking that they had a very valid point. While at some point people level other classes anyway, aside from those people that latch onto one class/job and never stray, it's nice to not be forced into leveling classes that you don't want or care about.

That being said, I actually think Rift did a pretty damn good job with the class/tree system. Being able to be an archetype then mixing and matching between other classes (skills) makes it fun and interesting while not forcing me to level every single one.

[vadre]

I agree, I think the whole system in its entirity should have been scrapped in favour or something more accessible as soon as Yoshida took over.

Scrap all the classes, reintroduce jobs as the basic accessible features, give each job the basic tools necessary to solo (e.g. give white mage an effective banish/holy build that works to a point that on similar level enemies the damage is respectable) and all other jobs some basic form of heal (BLM could use drains, warriors could use first aid or some bs) and implement interesting repeatable event-style guild leves (sort of like GW2's events but implemented in a way that is more expected with SE's skill level, so events you initiate when you get the leve, but others can join) that are semi-light hearted and engaging where people can just meet up and have fun together without having to compete.

To me, something like that would just have made more sense. They could add levels of customisation in all kinds of different ways like talents, traits, gear bonuses that don't require the player to basically do things they don't want to do in order to have fun.

The whole job/class system to me feels like it's overly convoluted, and still isn't playing to the real strengths of the FF brand (I'm sure when people hear about a FF MMO they expect to log on and see people actually adventuring dressed up like classical FF characters, not trying to maneuvre their way around an awkward system).

[Reve]

I agree, I think the whole system in its entirity should have been scrapped in favour or something more accessible as soon as Yoshida took over.

Scrap all the classes, reintroduce jobs as the basic accessible features, give each job the basic tools necessary to solo (e.g. give white mage an effective banish/holy build that works to a point that on similar level enemies the damage is respectable) and all other jobs some basic form of heal (BLM could use drains, warriors could use first aid or some bs) and implement interesting repeatable event-style guild leves (sort of like GW2's events but implemented in a way that is more expected with SE's skill level, so events you initiate when you get the leve, but others can join) that are semi-light hearted and engaging where people can just meet up and have fun together without having to compete.

To me, something like that would just have made more sense. They could add levels of customisation in all kinds of different ways like talents, traits, gear bonuses that don't require the player to basically do things they don't want to do in order to have fun.

The whole job/class system to me feels like it's overly convoluted, and still isn't playing to the real strengths of the FF brand (I'm sure when people hear about a FF MMO they expect to log on and see people actually adventuring dressed up like classical FF characters, not trying to maneuvre their way around an awkward system).

FFXI was my first MMORPG too so I didn't really see the problem with leveling other jobs. Looking at it now, I can see how strange it is to level something you have no interest in playing. There have been subjobs where I would just count down the exp until I hit Lv.37 because I really hated that job's playstyle. I think people find a play style that works for them and they stick with it. The job system allows you to switch play styles so you can play as your favorites on one character. The whole Archer, Gladiator, etc. thing should have been thrown out the window and restarted with FF-jobs. I agree with you that if they wanted customization do it through other means, like you said gear, talents, traits, different builds that could be changed.

[Corrderio]

I agree, I think the whole system in its entirity should have been scrapped in favour or something more accessible as soon as Yoshida took over.

Scrap all the classes, reintroduce jobs as the basic accessible features, give each job the basic tools necessary to solo (e.g. give white mage an effective banish/holy build that works to a point that on similar level enemies the damage is respectable) and all other jobs some basic form of heal (BLM could use drains, warriors could use first aid or some bs) and implement interesting repeatable event-style guild leves (sort of like GW2's events but implemented in a way that is more expected with SE's skill level, so events you initiate when you get the leve, but others can join) that are semi-light hearted and engaging where people can just meet up and have fun together without having to compete.

To me, something like that would just have made more sense. They could add levels of customisation in all kinds of different ways like talents, traits, gear bonuses that don't require the player to basically do things they don't want to do in order to have fun.

The whole job/class system to me feels like it's overly convoluted, and still isn't playing to the real strengths of the FF brand (I'm sure when people hear about a FF MMO they expect to log on and see people actually adventuring dressed up like classical FF characters, not trying to maneuvre their way around an awkward system).

Pretty good summary, though I think classes should say for the flexability/solo aspect. They just need an actual branch and add some more depth/consideration to it. For me an example would be Gladiator branching off into Paladin and Dark Knight. Gladiator would have a lesser form of Sentinel, Rampart, Souleater, etc. but when it switches to one class it gets more potent versions of the abilities and locks out others and a few other things (Like a new tier of equipment only PLD/DRK can use)

Funny thing is. I came up with a class/job branch a few nights ago. Managed to come up with 10 classes and 2 jobs a class. I didn't go into much depth past that though.

[Aratharn]

I agree with you that if they wanted customization do it through other means, like you said gear, talents, traits, different builds that could be changed.

Or materia. Missed opportunity there.

[vadre]

Or materia. Missed opportunity there.

I think materia really should've been about utility over power and customisation would've been the perfect avenue for it. Rather than it being a constant competition each patch to see whether materia-slotted crafted gear or dungeon gear works, they could've made materia provide what would otherwise be things like set bonuses and traits, and allow it to be slotted to all gear. Perhaps crafted gear could be easier to slot with materia or something to make it viable. Or they could've just used overworld boss horns etc to craft gear that rivals dungeon-based gear like SO many people have suggested, to open alternate routes of progression for people who actually enjoyed NM camping and that. I digress, but yeah, I agree.