Comments from the Devs

[Cichy]

This may be off topic, and I'll probably get badded for this, but thats ok.

If you can suffer the Official Forums, I have a thread up about HNM's, and if you support the NM/HNM system from XI (albeit, several changes like drastically reduced timers), your support would be nice. Already at 9,400 views with 400 responses. Also over 100 likes.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...rious-Monsters

kill yourself immediately

[Grey Jorildyn]

If only here was a "Dislike" button on the Official Forums, we could overcome the voice of 114 people who need therapy and support that idea.

[Niiro]

http://lodestone.finalfantasyxiv.com...788a9b473a1bab



http://lodestone.finalfantasyxiv.com...cb346a082ef837



Oh SE...

I think we've come to the point where asking "why do we need to log out at an inn" is entirely valid.

Seriously, just make the bonus accumulate any time you're logged out, it's not like you're charged for inns or that there are pre-reqs for getting them (talk to NPC, talk to other NPC over there, success).

[Kurokikaze]

kill yourself immediately

Rofl I was gonna say something similar but it wouldn't be appropriate of me. Let's keep it civil. lol

[Lucavi]

Rofl I was gonna say something similar but it wouldn't be appropriate of me. Let's keep it civil. lol

I wasn't gonna be the first one to post. Thankfully I could hold off until one of you guys dove in.

[Horus]

Why do we have a 2hr update for something that takes 2 sec to fix on your own.

[Fievel]

Why do we have a 2hr update for something that takes 2 sec to fix on your own.

SE

[Patriarch]

I wasn't gonna be the first one to post. Thankfully I could hold off until one of you guys dove in.

The fact alone that you dislike the idea, makes me love the idea.

It's ok though, there is plenty support as it is.

Not to mention, people can come up with as many goofy, immature responses as they want to (instead of a level-headed counter-opinion). More content on top of this mass of copy+paste instanced raids that we have would only be beneficial. And hopefully none of you are blind enough to try to argue that no one wants that content.

[Grey Jorildyn]

I think we can all level with each other on the fact that the official forums is not exactly an intelligent place to fish for or promote ideas in general. As such, claiming an idea has merit based on the support received there isn't exactly firm ground to stand on. Of course there are going to be people that support the idea. People support just about any idea on there. But like I said before, if there was a "dislike" button, I have a good feeling you'd find more of those than the "likes" you'll get. Of course that is really neither here nor there since said opinions would be just as biased as the ones you received for your idea. But if you want to use that as a proving ground, you'd probably be disappointed.

Rehashing the open world HNM idea is really not worth the time on these forums anymore. We all did it. Most of us hated it with a passion, but most of us were also very deeply involved in XI and understood that to get the best gear you had to do it. There was no choice in the matter. Now that we might have one, I think we'd choose something else not so... unbalanced. Open world content means bots and tools used for claiming. That is what will happen 100% of the time, we all know that, and the general consensus (here) is we don't want it.

[Lucavi]

The fact alone that you dislike the idea, makes me love the idea.

It's ok though, there is plenty support as it is.

Not to mention, people can come up with as many goofy, immature responses as they want to (instead of a level-headed counter-opinion). More content on top of this mass of copy+paste instanced raids that we have would only be beneficial. And hopefully none of you are blind enough to try to argue that no one wants that content.

I'm happy that you feel heartened that you're receiving support from the FFXI general forums. Take it where you can get it, I always say.

[Patriarch]

I think we can all level with each other on the fact that the official forums is not exactly an intelligent place to fish for or promote ideas in general. As such, claiming an idea has merit based on the support received there isn't exactly firm ground to stand on. Of course there are going to be people that support the idea. People support just about any idea on there. But like I said before, if there was a "dislike" button, I have a good feeling you'd find more of those than the "likes" you'll get. Of course that is really neither here nor there since said opinions would be just as biased as the ones you received for your idea. But if you want to use that as a proving ground, you'd probably be disappointed.

Rehashing the open world HNM idea is really not worth the time on these forums anymore. We all did it. Most of us hated it with a passion, but most of us were also very deeply involved in XI and understood that to get the best gear you had to do it. There was no choice in the matter. Now that we might have one, I think we'd choose something else not so... unbalanced. Open world content means bots and tools used for claiming. That is what will happen 100% of the time, we all know that, and the general consensus (here) is we don't want it.

There are many differences between the Official Forums, and the gool ole' BG forums.

I understand and agree, I don't want the basic forms of HNM's from XI either. The thread simply discusses ways to implement a notorious monster system with all sorts of people in mind. I talked about Open World, Force Pop, Lottery Pop, yada yada

I think this post best summarizes it. Quoted by a BG member at that lol

- FFXIV needs to keep having instanced content like Cutter's Cry and Aurum Vale. (preferably with more challenging things than 5 chest speed runs)

- FFXIV needs to keep having BCNM/KSNM like Ifrit and Moogle. (preferably more variety though)

- FFXIV needs about 500 more minor NMs like Leaping Lizzy and Golden Bat. (preferably WITH GOOD FKING DROPS THAT MEAN SOMETHING)

- FFXIV needs to have world HNM on a reasonable spawn timer. No not Uraeus or Buffalo. Those are sh*t. FFXIV needs REAL HNM like the Tiamats and the Dark Ixions and the Sand Worms and the Capricious Cassies (preferably the spawn conditions can be time/weather/place holder/ect based to rule out vokebots and claim wars)

- FFXIV needs to have large scale PvE content comparable to Vanilla WoW, Rift, Guild Wars 2, Tera ECT. (preferably something the entire server community can participate in - AND MAKE IT SCALEABLE)

FFXIV needs ALL of these things. ALL of them. Not one or the other. The content in the game needs to cater to all walks of MMO player. If SE can achieve this for 2.0 then I believe we have an AMAZING game on our hands.

I'm happy that you feel heartened that you're receiving support from the FFXI general forums. Take it where you can get it, I always say.

FFXIV Forums, Bro.

[Lucavi]

And apparently FFXIV needs to have all the botting that went along with world HNMs, because cheating just added to the "challenge" of claiming a mob, not killing the mob, and the "thrill and satisfaction" of potentially getting a drop over a "rival shell".

How the hell could XIV even handle HNM claiming with all of the imput lag that exists in the game? We don't even have to touch the botting issue yet. This farce of an idea will blow up in your face long before we have to pull out the bot card.

[Grey Jorildyn]

I agree with most, but I disagree with needing world HNM only on account of SE never figuring out to properly implement them.

If you make the drops too good, you get Dragon's Aery all over again.
If you make the drops worthless/drop too often, you get the current HNM scene.

If you make the drops good alternatives, but generally still sidegrades, to what's already out there, then you can strike a balance on the scene based on all that which was already mentioned (weather, weird spawn conditions, etc. NOT based on TIME alone). However SE hasn't been able to do this just yet. Will they ever figure it out? Probably not for a long time. Remember that their response to it in XI was to make those things force-popped, an age-old idea they kept re-using over and over again since Zilart expansion.

When they figure out how to make it work, I might support it too. But until then, heck no lol

[Patriarch]

And apparently FFXIV needs to have all the botting that went along with world HNMs, because cheating just added to the "challenge" of claiming a mob, not killing the mob, and the "thrill and satisfaction" of potentially getting a drop over a "rival shell".

I can't say I ever used a bot, being an xbox player myself. But if you would like to enlighten me on the "challenge" that cheating created, please indulge me.

There was most certainly "thrill and satisfaction", regardless of what you would like to say. I know this wont appeal to everyone, I knew that from the second I posted that thread that I would most certainly have a fair share of people against it.

But in a logical sense (shall we), there is obviously interest in "HNM's", so why not work on a way to implement them differently and try to create a better environment for the Open-World sector of this fine game?

I agree with most, but I disagree with needing world HNM only on account of SE never figuring out to properly implement them.

If you make the drops too good, you get Dragon's Aery all over again.
If you make the drops worthless/drop too often, you get the current HNM scene.

If you make the drops good alternatives, but generally still sidegrades, to what's already out there, then you can strike a balance on the scene based on all that which was already mentioned (weather, weird spawn conditions, etc. NOT based on TIME alone). However SE hasn't been able to do this just yet. Will they ever figure it out? Probably not for a long time. Remember that their response to it in XI was to make those things force-popped, an age-old idea they kept re-using over and over again since Zilart expansion.

When they figure out how to make it work, I might support it too. But until then, heck no lol

I completely see what you mean, and I agree with what you are saying. I'm not sure if I am getting lost in context here, but i don't want "only" Open-World HNM's. I want instanced, Open-World, Lottery, Placeholder, etc etc. Not just a section that will appeal to one crowd.

Dim down the timers, make the spawn zone larger to discourage botting (or make it near impossible to do so). I think with large spawn zones, and drastically reduced timers there could be a good enjoyable scene in the HNM market.

[Lucavi]

I'll try to spell it out for you as best as I can, as you're either willfully ignorant or simply ignorant:

You drop "worthwhile" gear on world HNMs and people will cheat to maximize their attempts at obtaining said gear. Regardless of whether you personally botted, someone in the linkshell that you HNM camped with botted. Period.

If SE cannot figure out a way to effectively eliminate bots entirely, and cannot design a system that cannot be exploited by any group or individual in terms of claiming and killing said HNMs, then the system is a failure. SE cannot do this. They've never even come close to doing this.

You may feel that adding world HNMs would serve as an injection of excitement and passion into the game, but that is a short-sighted view coming from someone who is apparently willfully ignorant of the systems behind world HNMs, so long as it benefits you directly. The number of people you would drive away from a game where cheating is not only existent, but encouraged through faulty systems such as placing excellent-quality gear on world HNMs, would override the amount of personal enjoyment you, yourself, would derive from the system. This doesn't even mention the financial side; something that SE is ultimately concerned with.

The thought of someone like yourself having any power of suggestion in regards to SE, based on this ignorance, is sobering.

[LD]

I think we've come to the point where asking "why do we need to log out at an inn" is entirely valid.

Seriously, just make the bonus accumulate any time you're logged out, it's not like you're charged for inns or that there are pre-reqs for getting them (talk to NPC, talk to other NPC over there, success).

It isn't valid. It'll never be valid. If shit like this breaks due to over-popularity, that's a mistake on SE's part. No Exceptions. It doesn't matter what it is. Whether or not we should be able to accumulate rested bonus whenever we log out is a completely different issue, it's never the player's fault for breaking the game.

The better question is whether or not they should bother fixing it when a: inns are relatively new and hence temporarily disposable and b: 2.0 is in 6-8 months.

[Patriarch]

I'll try to spell it out for you as best as I can, as you're either willfully ignorant or simply ignorant:

You drop "worthwhile" gear on world HNMs and people will cheat to maximize their attempts at obtaining said gear. Regardless of whether you personally botted, someone in the linkshell that you HNM camped with botted. Period.

If SE cannot figure out a way to effectively eliminate bots entirely, and cannot design a system that cannot be exploited by any group or individual in terms of claiming and killing said HNMs, then the system is a failure. SE cannot do this. They've never even come close to doing this.

You may feel that adding world HNMs would serve as an injection of excitement and passion into the game, but that is a short-sighted view coming from someone who is apparently willfully ignorant of the systems behind world HNMs, so long as it benefits you directly. The number of people you would drive away from a game where cheating is not only existent, but encouraged through faulty systems such as placing excellent-quality gear on world HNMs, would override the amount of personal enjoyment you, yourself, would drive from the system. This doesn't even mention the financial side; something that SE is ultimately concerned with.

The thought of someone like yourself having any power of suggestion in regards to SE, based on this ignorance, is sobering.

Ah I see.. So even despite the support that has been shown, I am "willfully ignorant" due to the fact that you don't like the idea? If I'm wrong, please elaborate further with your witty responses and laughable derogatory insult attempts.

Any content, even if there were risks of cheating, would be beneficial compared to what we have in FFXIV right now. Unless you enjoy spending copious amounts of time trying to collect tokens/nuts, to no avail. I personally don't.

If you would like, we can take the discussion to that of a "FFXI vs FFXIV" matter, and discuss the successes of both games comparitively.

[Grey Jorildyn]

Any content, even if there were risks of cheating, would be beneficial compared to what we have in FFXIV right now.

I wholeheartedly disagree with this. This is the kind of mentality that will spur SE to implementing buggy, untested, broken content just to appease us. We'll be right back into the same cycle we had in XI where they gave us huge content patch then proceeded to bug fix it not 24h later for the next week/month, w/e. Heck, we're getting that now with all this Inn bullshit (different conversation though).

SE needs thoughtful content that is implemented in such a way that cheating is not possible and players don't feel the need to cheat in mass to obtain the rewards. Instances have been their answer to far because it's the same answer in every other MMO. Ya know, there are world HNM in other MMOs too but they are implemented in few ways:

1) gear is not "Ridill-tier" in their game. It's nice to have but it's not gonna be best in slot forever and ever (certainly not 7+ years). -OR-
2) part of public quests where everyone can get a shot at loot. everyone, not just the claiming party! -OR-
3) They exist to "teach" you boss mechanics you'll see later on in instances/other places in the game. (ie. Fafnir taught you how to fight Early Bird gets the Wyrm)

It's all out there for SE to "borrow" and make their own as they want. But they still choose to see what they want to see in the end. All we have is hope they can get it right and we can give them credit where they're due, but everyone's got shortcomings, and open world end game content is definitely theirs (lolstrongholds/linking system).

[Lucavi]

Ah I see.. So even despite the support that has been shown, I am "willfully ignorant" due to the fact that you don't like the idea? If I'm wrong, please elaborate further with your witty responses and laughable derogatory insult attempts.

Any content, even if there were risks of cheating, would be beneficial compared to what we have in FFXIV right now. Unless you enjoy spending copious amounts of time trying to collect tokens/nuts, to no avail. I personally don't.

If you would like, we can take the discussion to that of a "FFXI vs FFXIV" matter, and discuss the successes of both games comparitively.

You're coming to the BG forums touting "support" which consists of some +1s on the FFXIV. OFFICIAL. FORUMS. - let me emphasize that point- the latter of which doesn't even have a -1 rating to keep the views of your thread in context. I really don't even need to go any farther, but I will attempt to educate you, at least until its time to make dinner.

You feel that any content = good content, which is absolutely foolhardy. You cannot see the forest from the trees, and aren't thinking logically in terms of what introducing a concept that promotes rampant and widespread cheating and corruption could mean not simply for the morale of current players, but also for interest of future players, who may not want to join a game mid-progress knowing that they're not only at a disadvantage in terms of levels/equipment, but also in terms of fairness due to veteran players cheating up a storm to maintain claims on world HNMs.

Think about it: do you honestly think that adding bottable HNMs to FFXIV would somehow increase subs, especially considering that XI has plenty of bottable HNMs and XI still exists? Do you really think SE has the leeway to implement a risky strategy in a game that is already hurting for subs? All because a few XI-to-XIV converts are bored and want to harken back to the "good ol' days" of a game that is still on the market? No. You don't think that at all, because you haven't thought about that at all. You're thinking about how bored you are with the game currently, and want SE to add something that you considered fun in XI to XIV, consequences be damned.

I shouldn't have to explain this. This is simplistic. World HNMs are a broken system, and SE has not once shown any ability to fix any of the myriad of problems associated with said broken system. You're too hopped up on the "wittyness" of my responses instead of digesting the context of my responses. This is your problem, however; not mine.

This is my last post on the subject. I'm not going to shit up a good thread with a bleeding-heart XI-apologist that wants to return SE's newest project to the stone ages.

Good luck with your proposal. Time will tell if anything comes of it.

Edit: I apologize to the mods in advance for this foolish "debate".

[Patriarch]

I wholeheartedly disagree with this. This is the kind of mentality that will spur SE to implementing buggy, untested, broken content just to appease us. We'll be right back into the same cycle we had in XI where they gave us huge content patch then proceeded to bug fix it not 24h later for the next week/month, w/e. Heck, we're getting that now with all this Inn bullshit (different conversation though).

SE needs thoughtful content that is implemented in such a way that cheating is not possible and players don't feel the need to cheat in mass to obtain the rewards. Instances have been their answer to far because it's the same answer in every other MMO. Ya know, there are world HNM in other MMOs too but they are implemented in few ways:

1) gear is not "Ridill-tier" in their game. It's nice to have but it's not gonna be best in slot forever and ever (certainly not 7+ years). -OR-
2) part of public quests where everyone can get a shot at loot. everyone, not just the claiming party! -OR-
3) They exist to "teach" you boss mechanics you'll see later on in instances/other places in the game. (ie. Fafnir taught you how to fight Early Bird gets the Wyrm)

It's all out there for SE to "borrow" and make their own as they want. But they still choose to see what they want to see in the end. All we have is hope they can get it right and we can give them credit where they're due, but everyone's got shortcomings, and open world end game content is definitely theirs (lolstrongholds/linking system).

I will agree to disagree with you Grey.

Now I am not trying to say, "Lets implement this quickly, even if people can possibly cheat..". I realize that I worded my last post a little off. While I do want open world HNM's, and quite a few others do, I think its safe to say we are all open to methods of implementation that would make it damn near impossible to "cheat".

How that could be done? Well there are several "ideas" out there that have been brought up so far. But you are right, SE has a bad track record of implementing things in that manner.

Good luck with your proposal. Time will tell if anything comes of it.

Thanks for your good wishes, hopefully we will see a Dev comment soon!

That was really the only line in your post that I could stomach.. must have been your witty context.