Comments from the Devs

[Lucavi]

That's exactly what he's saying, and that's the point that the XI-apologists fail to grasp whenever one of these "threads" pops its head out of the ground come springtime. I suppose your sarcasm detector is a little wonky these days.

There's enough BG weedkiller around, though, to handle the problem.

[Kurokikaze]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but what Kuro is saying is that catering to FFXI playerbase in 2012 is a financial suicide. They will need more than ex-ffxi players.

^ Ding ding ding. This is what I meant.

[Cichy]

Yet again, lodestone community will be the end of this game

[Lordender]

@Lordender Even if GW2 is a better game, it's not a Final Fantasy.

You're right, its not Final Fantasy but the question still remains when you look at the situation on a widescale view. The number one question I have about Final Fantasy XIV when its all said and done is what is it going to offer me, how is SE going to make me choose THEM over the competition. The name alone isn't going to be enough to carry them anymore, they're going to have to produce an MMO that can be competitive, fun, offer innovative gameplay. Every potential new player looking for an MMO is going to ask this same question, what game is going to offer me the most for my money. Now the XI player on the other hand probably will flock to it(eventually) but XI players alone aren't going to carry this game, it is going to need new blood.

It doesn't matter one bit about what product I think is superior, its just my opinion, whatever product is the superior product will have most players once 2.0 gets into the competition. I think it says a lot to me that a game thats in BETA was a whole lot more fun to me than anything in XIV was after a year out in reforms, a BETA that also had over a million signups for as well. I think 2.0 can be a great game, I still believe SE could deliver something special but the reality of it is they won't if they just listen to any and everyone who just wants FFXI:HD which seems to be most on the official forums. The official forums seems to greatly influence what happens in XIV development which could prove fatal in the end.

The reality of the situation is this:

SE is in a big battle vs MMO fans and FFXI fans, each side doesn't want to game to be like the other. MMO fans are those who've played most of whats out there, expects the game to adopt certain aspects found in modern MMO's while the FFXI crowd just wants the same terrible elements like HNM or class stacking 5 of the same class for content etc. I don't know which way SE ends up going with in 2.0, obviously we won't until 2.0 actually launches but i'll tell you this, there is going to be skeptics who aren't gonna drink any of their koolaid, its time for them to show they can hang with the big boys over the next 8 months.

[Patriarch]

I think it was a sarcastic response to what (I think) ffffffff said that the game was doomed to fail if they didn't implement FFXI-esque systems into FFXIV. I think it was implied, at least. Too lazy to check.

I never said that, regardless of how much Lucavi likes to draw out arguments based on his own assumptions. His genuine, witty context draws people in quite well.

I support FFXI ideas yes, but I never once said FFXIV will fail if FFXI-esque ideas are not implemented.

Must drive Lucavi crazy, all of us wacky "FFXI-Apologists".

Yet again, lodestone community will be the end of this game

Because it's doing so well, correct? FFXIV is definitely set up for immense success, and we should all lash out on anyone who thinks otherwise. God forbid people even attempt at implementing ideas from titles that were far superior in the terms of financial success and player numbers; Which is indeed why Square-Enix makes video games, unless you think they make them out of the kindness of their hearts.

Better yet, if we don't like what they suggest we should probably do our best to throw ill-strewn comments at them. This is why I love these boards. It's like a melting pot of every breed of mind, all happy and melded into one big argumentative family.

[Burningthought]

You're right, its not Final Fantasy but the question still remains when you look at the situation on a widescale view. The number one question I have about Final Fantasy XIV when its all said and done is what is it going to offer me, how is SE going to make me choose THEM over the competition. The name alone isn't going to be enough to carry them anymore, they're going to have to produce an MMO that can be competitive, fun, offer innovative gameplay. Every potential new player looking for an MMO is going to ask this same question, what game is going to offer me the most for my money. Now the XI player on the other hand probably will flock to it(eventually) but XI players alone aren't going to carry this game, it is going to need new blood.

It doesn't matter one bit about what product I think is superior, its just my opinion, whatever product is the superior product will have most players once 2.0 gets into the competition. I think it says a lot to me that a game thats in BETA was a whole lot more fun to me than anything in XIV was after a year out in reforms, a BETA that also had over a million signups for as well. I think 2.0 can be a great game, I still believe SE could deliver something special but the reality of it is they won't if they just listen to any and everyone who just wants FFXI:HD which seems to be most on the official forums. The official forums seems to greatly influence what happens in XIV development which could prove fatal in the end.

The reality of the situation is this:

SE is in a big battle vs MMO fans and FFXI fans, each side doesn't want to game to be like the other. MMO fans are those who've played most of whats out there, expects the game to adopt certain aspects found in modern MMO's while the FFXI crowd just wants the same terrible elements like HNM or class stacking 5 of the same class for content etc. I don't know which way SE ends up going with in 2.0, obviously we won't until 2.0 actually launches but i'll tell you this, there is going to be skeptics who aren't gonna drink any of their koolaid, its time for them to show they can hang with the big boys over the next 8 months.

SE already said they aren't interested in making FFXI-2 or FFXI:HD. They want FFXIV to be a different experience than FFXI.

If you look closely at the dev comments and the 2.0 docs they're going to cater to as many people as they can.. They're doing raids for people who are used to WoW and other mmos. They're doing FFXI-style endgame with the Crystal Tower and Ixali dungeon. They're adding dedicated PvP content for those who enjoy that. They've said before they want to add HNMs, and I believe the first step to that is going to be the Odin Primal. As for class stacking they're addressing that starting with the Garuda battle, they want to make sure melee classes have their moment to shine, since ranged dds are favored atm.

2.0 is really going to make FFXIV shine if Yoshida can deliver. Yoshida has already proven he can deliver with features, its just getting them out on time as he planned. After 1.23 (which is slated for the summer) we're not going to get any more content updates until 2.0 comes out so that will give him plenty of man power and hours to polish up 2.0.

I guess i'm confused as to what everyone is talking about. They're not going to solely cater to FFXI players, they're going to try and cater to everyone as much as they can, and the dev comments and 2.0 docs back this up quite nicely.

[Cichy]

I never said that, regardless of how much Lucavi likes to draw out arguments based on his own assumptions. His genuine, witty context draws people in quite well.

I support FFXI ideas yes, but I never once said FFXIV will fail if FFXI-esque ideas are not implemented.

Must drive Lucavi crazy, all of us wacky "FFXI-Apologists".



Because it's doing so well, correct? FFXIV is definitely set up for immense success, and we should all lash out on anyone who thinks otherwise. God forbid people even attempt at implementing ideas from titles that were far superior in the terms of financial success and player numbers; Which is indeed why Square-Enix makes video games, unless you think they make them out of the kindness of their hearts.

Better yet, if we don't like what they suggest we should probably do our best to throw ill-strewn comments at them. This is why I love these boards. It's like a melting pot of every breed of mind, all happy and melded into one big argumentative family.

If it was a good idea people here wouldn't say anything. However, you and that band of mentally handicapped that is supporting your idea is regurgitating same idea over and over. Same idea that alienated 90% of XI players. Same idea that made XI botting war. Same idea that had SE put best drops into that retarded system.
Guess what, if they put HNM on 9 hour timers, there will be bots. If they put them on 5 hours, there will be bots. And once those bots will be done with getting their shit, they will camp it to sell to others. Than just pray you're not at the wrong side.
You should've posted your breakthrough write out on XIV core, surely there you would find more agreeable crowd. Hell, they probably put it on 1st page.

[Spider-Dan]

While I don't have a problem with not-FFXI, the closer this game comes to WoW, the more it becomes just-another-WoW-clone (and those have shown to have very little staying power). At this point, the prospects for sucking in new subscribers with World of Final Fantasy are effectively non-existent; those players would rather stick to WoW or wield a lightsaber.

So if there is some grand plan for this game, it needs to be as different from WoW as it is from XI. Tanaka-era XIV certainly qualified as that, but in a completely trashy way.

[Burningthought]

While I don't have a problem with not-FFXI, the closer this game comes to WoW, the more it becomes just-another-WoW-clone (and those have shown to have very little staying power). At this point, the prospects for sucking in new subscribers with World of Final Fantasy are effectively non-existent; those players would rather stick to WoW or wield a lightsaber.

So if there is some grand plan for this game, it needs to be as different from WoW as it is from XI. Tanaka-era XIV certainly qualified as that, but in a completely trashy way.

2.0 is coming with more variety of endgame. I think they went instance heavy because it was easier on development or something. honestly Darkhold, CC, AV, Ifrit and Moogle are the only endgame activities we have available at the moment. I've already mentioned more than once what's coming in 2.0. I think you shouldn't judge the game pre-2.0 just yet when it comes to the future of the game.

[Lordender]

While I don't have a problem with not-FFXI, the closer this game comes to WoW, the more it becomes just-another-WoW-clone (and those have shown to have very little staying power). At this point, the prospects for sucking in new subscribers with World of Final Fantasy are effectively non-existent; those players would rather stick to WoW or wield a lightsaber.

So if there is some grand plan for this game, it needs to be as different from WoW as it is from XI. Tanaka-era XIV certainly qualified as that, but in a completely trashy way.

I don't think they can or should copy WoW, although I wouldn't mind them using some of their ideas like "Bring the player not the class" finding a nice balance to their resource system. For example, in WoW a paladin can tank all day, they have ways of getting their MP back, every class has ways of getting their mp back without relying on a support class, this makes it so action is non-stop.

[Ambrosia]

^ Ding ding ding. This is what I meant.

Yeah even Yoshi said he wants to "create a MMO title which is both fun to play and capable of attracting and entertaining large numbers of players." He knows (or should know) that going back to 2002-2004 is not the way to go. Nothing wrong with getting a couple of ideas from it, but the vast majority should not be going back to that style of mechanics etc. The whole point of Version 2.0 is to not only bring back some of those that left, but "hopefully" gather a larger audience, in part through the PS3.

Yet again, lodestone community will be the end of this game

Sadly with theme park MMORPG fantasy games (shame that FFXIV went the theme park route instead of the sandbox route) the die hard fans usually put that last nail in the coffin. In almost every forum community I've been in and seen (especially 2005 going forward), mostly P2P models, the company does most of the legwork to drive the game into the ground, but the die hard fans usually help it with that final push.

You know, to give it a nudge. If Version 2.0 fails, then it will go F2P. Yioshi even replied to 2 questions stating that not only is he "very interested" with the model but actually looking into it as well.

[Patriarch]

If it was a good idea people here wouldn't say anything. However, you and that band of mentally handicapped that is supporting your idea is regurgitating same idea over and over. Same idea that alienated 90% of XI players. Same idea that made XI botting war. Same idea that had SE put best drops into that retarded system.
Guess what, if they put HNM on 9 hour timers, there will be bots. If they put them on 5 hours, there will be bots. And once those bots will be done with getting their shit, they will camp it to sell to others. Than just pray you're not at the wrong side.
You should've posted your breakthrough write out on XIV core, surely there you would find more agreeable crowd. Hell, they probably put it on 1st page.

Ah, Mentally Handicapped now. I am just getting diagnosed with everything from you and Lucavi. Those kind of comments tend to hurt any chances of a valid argument you may have had, but we can continue anyway. I'll give you a pass.

You and your anti-"ffxi-apologist" friend can nay-say all you want, about FFXI and any ideas related to the sort. Rather, I could be like you and bring nothing to the table. That is a good call, sir. I should emulate your actions, sit around and not say a word and hope what SE spoon-feeds me is good content. Regardless of the "ideas" that I have set forth are aspects of a previous MMO from the same company. HNM content would add some livelyhood to a dead, barren, boring Open World system that we have right now.

We can continue to hope this game is going to get better based on the current progress. When is reality with its current player-base (unless 2.0 pulls a hat trick), is most likely going to end up being F2P with minimal support as they move on to their next title. I want FFXIV to be a grand. flaring success with content for more than just one crowd. I apologize if you are to dense to see that, and would rather spend your time flaming someone else's suggestions although you have brought nothing to the table yourself. My idea's have flaws, and need to be fine-tuned, but in the end they are just ideas. Hopefully something will come of it. And if not? That's ok, we can go back to the drawing board.

I will leave it at that. If you don't like it, that's ok. Plenty of people do. If HNM's are implemented, you don't have to go camp them.

[Stanislaw]

HNM content would add some livelyhood to a dead, barren, boring Open World system that we have right now.

What really boils down to is that the fact that given our previous experiences with the 'HNM' scene in SE's previous MMO, none of us are willing to them give the benefit of the doubt to implement a good system and would rather just not see it altogether. Whether or not that's the correct attitude for one to have remains to be seen. I for one don't necessary agree, but I can understand why people will feel that way.

At its height, the HNM system in FFXI did not add an alive, vibrant and interesting open world which you so imply. It instead introduced a dead (players, both in-game and IRL in terms of a system encouraging the creation of no-lifers), barren (for the majority of the playerbase who couldn't compete against botters) and boring (waiting for spawns for hours on end is sure fun!) game and system.

From my point of view, open-world content bottlenecks player's access to content. Instances, at least everyone can attempt it. At their own pace and time. Not saying this holds true for all things open-world and instanced, of course. Just in general.

"You don't have to attempt it" is not a valid excuse.

[Eagleheart]

I know everyone crys foul over copy+paste ideas from Final Fantasy XI. But lets be honest, they were the reason alot of people played. The rush of getting claim over your enemy linkshells. Watching an awesome wipe. Seeing that ever-elusive item in the loot pool. So many amazing memories of great times.

Respectfully, this told me everything that I needed to know about the remainder of the post.

I always hated that aspect of XI, HNMs and rival linkshells. I think this was discussed a few pages back, actually - people came to regard others as enemies, rather than as fellow players. Rivals are one thing - the state of XI endgame was not rivalry. It was more akin to a bunch of high schoolers thumbing their nose at one another, and preening their superiority over anyone who wasn't in their crew, but especially towards their ostensible rivals.

We had all these little cliques running around, boatloads of snobs dashing about town, starting fights in Ru'lude with someone who outclaimed them the previous night, and an air of general dislike for anyone whose pearl color wasn't the same as yours.

Yeah, I hated that. I like to get along with people. >.> I like cooperating and playing together. I do not like bitterly divided communities. I hesitate to read the remainder of that thread, and seeing 46 pages worth of replies to it makes me worry about the official forums as a whole.

[Patriarch]

If you don't like it, don't partake in it.

It's almost comical hearing the contrast and comparisons of the intelligence of members using other boards. It's comparable to Ford vs Chevy owners who despise the opposite because of which brand they use. Every board has their fair share of people who you may not agree with, but unfortunately the best viable option to have a dev hear you out, is on those boards. I come back to BG to get my fix of people like Lucavi. But even after all has been said, we have agreed that what happens in the thread, stays in the thread. I will give him his credit though, Lucavi's comebacks from an argumentative standpoint are nothing less than superb, and also consistent.

[Elcura]

If you don't like it, don't partake in it.

You don't have to partake in it directly for it to have an effect on you. The concept alone can breed this sort of behaviour and that can spill into all other activities not even related to the event. It's not as simple as no like no do.

[Stanislaw]

If you don't like it, don't partake in it.

Please do not use this argument. It's one of the poorest ways to argue your point, and its just going to add more fuel to the fire.

Again:

"You don't have to attempt it" is not a valid excuse.

[Patriarch]

I understand that to you it may seem like a poor, lacking example. I might ask you, why does it need to be anything else?

It is simple, and very much to the point.

Hopefully (its coming in 2.0.. ) there will be many, many things to do in the game after all this re-shaping has been done. It is obvious that quite a few people want HNM's to come back in some way shape or form. To my defense, it doesn't have to be "HNM"s as we know it. I know my thread title may mislead most of you, but the original intent was really just in search of more NM-type content for the Open-World aspect of the game. I want more variety, and not just a game that uses content-finders to cram random people into groups to smash out the same instanced content over, and over, and over again.

Among a plethora of things to do, if HNM's were implemented, you would hopefully have many things to do aside from that. Therefore, if you don't want to go camp them, don't.

You don't have to partake in it directly for it to have an effect on you. The concept alone can breed this sort of behaviour and that can spill into all other activities not even related to the event. It's not as simple as no like no do.

Please elaborate a little further. I can agree to this somewhat however.

I understand that, lets say, some HNM's came into the picture and had some sought-after drops. In a sense, this would possibly suck you into camping them, I think is what you are getting after?

Let's be honest here, alot of people want NM's. Between the near 500 responses, 120+ likes etc etc (I know, I wish there was a dislike button so I could gauge +/-). There has to be a way to make things easier, and not so convoluted and disparing.

Spawn timers shortened to just a couple of hours. Only 1, very miniscule window. Large spawn areas to nullify cheating. Force pop via farmed triggers. There are more options here than the ones you guys hate. Work with me here

[Eagleheart]

If you don't like it, don't partake in it.

It's almost comical hearing the contrast and comparisons of the intelligence of members using other boards. It's comparable to Ford vs Chevy owners who despise the opposite because of which brand they use. Every board has their fair share of people who you may not agree with, but unfortunately the best viable option to have a dev hear you out, is on those boards. I come back to BG to get my fix of people like Lucavi. But even after all has been said, we have agreed that what happens in the thread, stays in the thread. I will give him his credit though, Lucavi's comebacks from an argumentative standpoint are nothing less than superb, and also consistent.

Having been to both BG and the official forums, and not really being a staple of either (I like to go with the flow, for the most part - except about the disaster of PLD ; ; ) I would reply that the official forums certainly have their share of inconceivably shallow posters, and that it might be larger than normal, because while everyone and their grandmother know about the official XIV forums (you can't miss them, they're right there on the homesite) not everyone knows about BG, and typically the folks who come here are of a different breed.

Not necessarily superior, but different people hang around the BG gaming forums. (>> ) There is a good reason that BG was granted an interview by Yoshi P.

In reply to your statement of "if you do not like it, do not participate", I would reply that the effects I mentioned above are going to occur, whether or not I personally participate. The bickering, backbiting 'community' of XI endgame would begin to return, and I would have to find whomever was responsible and friggin' Steel Cyclone their faces off. Repeatedly.

I don't want to do that, but I will. ._. Yay PVP!

HNMs did not provide a lively gameplay experience. They rewarded wandering aimlessly for hours at a time, hoping against hope that you manage to get the claim on a monster that appeared in a relatively small environment. Then along came WOTG, wherein Dark Ixion and Sandworm were supposed to be an answer to the abject boredom of the Aery, or BD, countering the dismal reality of the old HNM scene, which was, let's be honest, "AFK 25 minutes, guys", and "Okay, back for 5 min, ugh so much homework".

Instead, Ixion and Sandworm were even more extensively botted, to greater effect (read: reward), and they made the problem that was XI HNMs even worse. The idea of them appearing in random zones and traversing the entirety of the zone didn't improve the state of the claiming contest, it made it distinctly worse. Also, all of this doesn't begin to take into account the terrible responsiveness of the game servers in XIV at this time.

This isn't a good idea. ._.

[Kurokikaze]

It's like talking to the wall... or a...

...conservative. O_O