Comments from the Devs

[Lucavi]

Wait, now I'm confused. Lucavi, at first you berate OF users for "wanting it gone entirely", but then you go on to say that jumping never looks good in games, you could only ever see jumps in an FF game as a special attack mechanic, and it'll probably be a shit mechanic if it gets used in any situation where lag could come into play.

What side of the debate are you on anyway? I am honestly unsure at this point.

Wait what? I asked what game jump "looks good" because it never looks good and looks alone is not a reason to include or exclude a feature such as jumping. The act of jumping itself is pretty doofy if its an average person doing it free-form. Jumping only "looks good" if there is a setup to it, such as the 2-step approach in volleyball or basketball. The majority of these MMOs are in a fantasy setting, in which jumping consisted of the same type of jump that the average kid in the special olympics performs; hence why it looks so "bad".

To clarify that, Raldo: I am pro-jump. I am anti-argument against jump simply because it doesn't always look ascetically pleasing. We don't remove running options from games because the standard roadie run looks goofy as hell. If we removed things from games because they looked bad, then every Female Elvaan animation in XI would have been banned.

IMO jump should be in the game, and they should address it in one of three ways:

1) Jumping outside of combat used to help ascend over/through terrain, to navigate to higher areas, to solve environmental puzzles, to make trips through town shorter (jumping over silly fences), but no jumping within combat unless the jump itself is affixed to a certain move. (This is the prettier, and thus, more "FF - because FF has always been about beautiful people behaving beautifully - of the two options).
2) Jumping outside of combat as above, and the same jumping within combat, used to navigate through terrain that may obstruct a boss fight, to reach higher or more advantageous areas for healing or damaging classes, or to escape certain boss mechanics.
3) Jumping outside of combat as above, but instead of jumping within combat, institute a dodge or roll ability that has a cooldown ala TERA/GW2/ect. that allows for a skilled player to avoid certain melee or magic attacks by timing them correctly. This can reduce the focus on defensive stats on certain class types that fight at range.

[Aratharn]

Wait, now I'm confused. Lucavi, at first you berate OF users for "wanting it gone entirely", but then you go on to say that jumping never looks good in games, you could only ever see jumps in an FF game as a special attack mechanic, and it'll probably be a shit mechanic if it gets used in any situation where lag could come into play.

What side of the debate are you on anyway? I am honestly unsure at this point.

Don't ever take the bait...

[Takiwaki]

If the game doesnt allow for z axis movement, that would actually make use of jump in basic everyday movement, why have it? I think using it as a battle tactic is a bad idea also.

I do agree with lucavi's take on it though

[Lucavi]

Don't ever take the bait...

Hush.

[Spira]

cant post on OF or i would.

I like how jump was implemented in FFXIII-2 (and in similar ways X-2). It should be there to add a very light platformer element to the game, and allow you to jump off ledges so you don't have to walk around the long way. Some dungeons could feature a maze of ledges and tunnels and this could be used that way. Also, the obvious would be hopping over little obstacles, and maybe even trap/damage floors.

whatever it is, i think as long as it doesn't touch combat it should be pretty ok.

[Kurokikaze]

Lucavi, I've been saying since the changes to ARC (combos in 1.19) that they need a backflip/frontflip (Vault - Diablo 3) to get out of range of a target. More so because they have combos that require the ARC/BRD to be at a certain distance... This makes soloing on ARC/BRD seem clunky.

[Niiro]

I would prefer a simplified contextual "jump" command, and I think the best example of this is the jump/climb mechanics in Ocarina of Time.

You couldn't jump on-command, but if you approached a higher elevation or an obstacle of some kind you were able to jump and/or climb in an appropriate manner. This could range from a large step up or a full vertical hands-stretched reaching jump to grab a high ledge. It gave you all the freedom of movement you needed without an awkward, general, jump command. As for horizontal jumps you automatically jumped when running over a ledge but for XIV I think it would be better if you simply used the same contextual button when near a ledge to jump across/down (you don't want to accidentally jump off a ledge because you got a little too close).

In OoT all of this looked very natural and organic, you had all the freedom of movement without the hippity-hoppity stupidness.

As for combat I think the contextual button should be used as a roll command, think Demon/Dark Souls (or even the lock on dodge mechanics in OoT). Basically the button would allow you to do a short (but useful) roll in whatever direction you're pointing towards. Give it a brief cool down and a realistic, but useful range (run to the front of dangerous mob, start combo, roll out of the way before it's breath attack kills you, etc).

Basically it lets you travel a small distance instantly. Imagine having a DS-style roll at your disposal on Ifrit when dealing with cracks, hit it as soon as they appear under you for a head start or use it while running away to get out of range before they explode.

Another good example would be Uncharted, you could jump on command but it was meant for contextual usage. If you hit it while standing still when there was nothing to climb over or grab onto you just did a realistic, ineffectual vertical jump (the character subtly trying to grasp at something but failing, basically telling the player there's nothing to climb here). It didn't look overly silly and no bouncy ball Super Mario leaps all over the place.

The key concept should be context is what I'm getting at. In context you can jump/climb in an appropriate manner, out of context you do a utility roll on a small cool down.

edit: I doubt discussing this will lead to much, they've probably already decided how the jump mechanic will work tbh. If the jump mechanic is of any importance at all I'd imagine its way too late in the development process to make any major changes. Also one thing that's going to be unavoidably silly is the 3' Taru and a 7' Galka having the same jumping/climbing capabilities.

[Kurokikaze]

Couldn't jump on command in OoT? Then how do all these speedruns happen? O_O

Spoiler: show

Backflip and sidestep/jump to victory. It was much faster. Everyone seems to forget this.

[Lucavi]

^ This. Everyone who uses OOT as a reference forgets that link had jumps on command. Side/backflips.

Edit: Stay out of my head, Kuro. We're always on the same page, bro.

[Corrderio]

I think the general consensus is that nobody wants it to look retarded. I don't think that's too much to ask.

This. I'm all for jump if they can give it a use. I'd like to see some platformer like elements for some zones.

[Niiro]

^ This. Everyone who uses OOT as a reference forgets that link had jumps on command. Side/backflips.

Edit: Stay out of my head, Kuro. We're always on the same page, bro.

Quit missing the point, the Z-target movements were meant for combat not travel, people just happened to find out you could exploit them for travel.

Are you going to point out that running was pointless because constantly rolling was faster too?

[LD]

Been playing The Secret World for a few days and, funny enough, it made me feel better about FFXIV's future. First and foremost, it showed me that a modern MMO can have a zone system and still have a sense of cohesion (certain things TSW did may have aided that sense, but I won't get into that here). It surprised me with a dodge roll ability, something I'd only personally experienced in TERA, a game I thought absolutely required it. After playing TSW for a while I found it to be invaluable there too (especially with the damn ak'ab). I guess what I'm saying is whether or not jumping or dodge rolling is especially useful depends entirely on what SE plans on doing with it. Jumping in WoW had its practical uses occasionally, but mostly it was for dealing with terrain. If that's all it's used for in FFXIV, people will accept it, but it would be nice if SE tried something else. They kinda officially said that they wouldn't though, didn't they?

[Takiwaki]

Been playing The Secret World for a few days and, funny enough, it made me feel better about FFXIV's future. First and foremost, it showed me that a modern MMO can have a zone system and still have a sense of cohesion (certain things TSW did may have aided that sense, but I won't get into that here). It surprised me with a dodge roll ability, something I'd only personally experienced in TERA, a game I thought absolutely required it. After playing TSW for a while I found it to be invaluable there too (especially with the damn ak'ab). I guess what I'm saying is whether or not jumping or dodge rolling is especially useful depends entirely on what SE plans on doing with it. Jumping in WoW had its practical uses occasionally, but mostly it was for dealing with terrain. If that's all it's used for in FFXIV, people will accept it, but it would be nice if SE tried something else. They kinda officially said that they wouldn't though, didn't they?

I see you have not tried GW2?, both jumping and dodging used with great success.

I do agree though. With the directional use of the combo system I think a roll or dash type skill would be perfect in XIV. It will help alleviate that cumbersome animation, which really makes no sense, I mean in a middle of an intense battle and I gently jog around to avoid attacks or move into position? cmon now lol. . .

[Lucavi]

Quit missing the point, the Z-target movements were meant for combat not travel, people just happened to find out you could exploit them for travel.

Are you going to point out that running was pointless because constantly rolling was faster too?

Not missing the point at all; if you want a OOT-style jump, there's really no point in jumping. There's no exploration involved aside from running places hoping that a random area will allow you to jump on a pre-scripted route to a pre-scripted area. That was the problem with it in XIII; it lead to a very linear playstyle because you didn't control where you went; you simply grinded against enough invisible borders until you found a pre-scripted place to pre-scripted jump.

Not really relevant for a free-exploring MMO.

[Croy]

Been playing The Secret World for a few days and, funny enough, it made me feel better about FFXIV's future. First and foremost, it showed me that a modern MMO can have a zone system and still have a sense of cohesion (certain things TSW did may have aided that sense, but I won't get into that here). It surprised me with a dodge roll ability, something I'd only personally experienced in TERA, a game I thought absolutely required it. After playing TSW for a while I found it to be invaluable there too (especially with the damn ak'ab). I guess what I'm saying is whether or not jumping or dodge rolling is especially useful depends entirely on what SE plans on doing with it. Jumping in WoW had its practical uses occasionally, but mostly it was for dealing with terrain. If that's all it's used for in FFXIV, people will accept it, but it would be nice if SE tried something else. They kinda officially said that they wouldn't though, didn't they?

Think that's the purpose of the rep crowd sourcing the community. Yoshida has an idea where he wants to go with the game in terms of jump but he wants to see if the community wishes to expand or restrict the functionality of what has already described, or to be told his idea is working for a majority of the people. He probably got comments about wanting to use it for potential combat and wanted to see what the rest of the community really felt like. Jump is probably far enough in the development phase where its functions can't be changed that much between now and 2.0, but it might also be early enough where he can change the parameter of future content down the line without needing to back track a lot.

[Kurokikaze]

Aside from jump I would like each job to have a way to get in and out danger quickly. Lemme run through some things I envisioned in my head.

BRD - OoT Sidestep/Backflips/Forward jump. Needs to jump a few feet to be useful and can be used every 2 seconds. Backward jump needs to jump farther than the side jumps since its main purpose is to get you in proper range for combo. Think of this scenario: Heavy Shot -> Forward Jump -> Quick Nock -> Backward Jump -> Rain Song. You have hate on a mob you're trying to kill (Shadowbind is on cooldown. A lot of BRDs forget about this move btw): Backward Jump -> Start combo -> Kill mob.

BLM - Short range teleport. This obviously needs a longer cooldown but it would render the caster completely invincible and teleport them forward. About the same distance as Elusive Jump.

DRG - Elusive Jump is already in. They're good. Only thing I can see that would be fucking awesome would be a Super Jump that keeps them in the air for 3-5 seconds thus making them completely impervious to damage. Maybe even Super Jump before primal two hour to avoid it... I mean you could technically do it in older FFs already... Think Garuda (FF3 NES/DS).

MNK - They're agile/nimble so this will make sense... Sidestep around the mob quickly. Would help with getting in position for combos and to get out of a frontal attack.

WAR - Roll. Simple. Or they could go the WoW route and take that Warrior ability where they jump forward and stomp the ground - stunning enemies and gaining agro.

PLD - A roll but when they get back to a standing position it procs a block (animation as well).

WHM - This is the tricky one... What would work? How about the WoW route? They leech a target player and pull them out of danger. lol

I personally would love to see any and all of these in play. It won't instantly turn the game into an action game but it'll give players more options as to how they get in and out of certain situations.

[Niiro]

Not missing the point at all; if you want a OOT-style jump, there's really no point in jumping. There's no exploration involved aside from running places hoping that a random area will allow you to jump on a pre-scripted route to a pre-scripted area. That was the problem with it in XIII; it lead to a very linear playstyle because you didn't control where you went; you simply grinded against enough invisible borders until you found a pre-scripted place to pre-scripted jump.

Not really relevant for a free-exploring MMO.

Again, missing the point, but it's a different point.

What you seem to want is jumping for the sake of jumping, either you use jumping to get where you want to go or you just jump around for no reason.

Exploration has nothing to do with it, being able to jump on command doesn't let you do anything a proper contextual jump wouldn't.

How does a free use jump increase your ability to explore if the only reason to use it is in places where a contextual jump would do the same thing?

[Lucavi]

It kinda does, Niiro. Go play Rift or GW2 and solve an enviornmental puzzle, then come back and try to say what you just said. There's a huge difference in having to make the tricky jumps yourself vs. hugging invisible borders until you find the right place for the "press X to jump!" icon to pop up on your UI. That's the last thing I'm going to say about the issue, because its neither here nor there.

@Kuro: For whm, why not a "pushback" knockback move to get the mob off of the whm? It doesn't have to do damage, and you could keep it on a relatively short cooldown, but just a little burst of wind or something to push the enemy back a few yards/meters to buy some time. Perhaps make it upgradable to lower enimity when used or something.

[miokomioko]

I think Final Fantasy XIII would be a better comparison than Zelda for that style of jumping.

Further, I would prefer a jumping mechanic closer to what was found in Final Fantasy XIII-2 since I think we can all rest assured that we're getting a fucking jump button that people will endlessly mash while bored in town.

I just hope they don't incorporate it into combat any more than Dragoon's Evasive Jump. At most, they might have some battles/dungeons that require jumping up onto platforms to avoid obstacles... but latency, no matter how good servers infrastructure is, will always severely hinder something as precise and short-duration as a jump in combat if it's something as reactive as jumping over an enemy's shockwave attack or a rotating floor trap.

[Kurokikaze]

How does a free use jump increase your ability to explore if the only reason to use it is in places where a contextual jump would do the same thing?

Thats the whole point... To get where contextual jumps wouldn't normally take you. You think Blizzard thought up every single area where people could jump on top of? Absolutely not. The devs give you a mechanic and a world you're supposed to explore it as a player; go where ever you want. This is freedom.

Unfortunately people that want "photo-realism" can't understand that they're playing a game. You're supposed to be able to do shit you can't do in real life. Who cares if someone manages to get on top of some ridiculously tall tree or managed to get on top of some building (through in game methods) that devs didn't take into consideration? As long as it doesn't literally break the game it's fine. lol