Comments from the Devs

[Takiwaki]

Again, missing the point, but it's a different point.

What you seem to want is jumping for the sake of jumping, either you use jumping to get where you want to go or you just jump around for no reason.

Exploration has nothing to do with it, being able to jump on command doesn't let you do anything a proper contextual jump wouldn't.

How does a free use jump increase your ability to explore if the only reason to use it is in places where a contextual jump would do the same thing?

One takes some platforming skills and one doesn't? doesn't a contextual jump show you where you have to go in a way? defeats the purpose of exploring kinda no?

[TacoTaru]

DRG - Elusive Jump is already in. They're good. Only thing I can see that would be fucking awesome would be a Super Jump that keeps them in the air for 3-5 seconds thus making them completely impervious to damage. Maybe even Super Jump before primal two hour to avoid it... I mean you could technically do it in older FFs already... Think Garuda (FF3 NES/DS).

Not to nitpick your list, but Elusive Jump can't be used in that manner. It doesn't recalculate positioning until landing, so it's useless in situations where moving quickly would be make or break (like Ifrit cracks or Chimeria AoEs).

[Lordender]

Oh man, Jumping and official forum.

This sounds so delicious.

[Lucavi]

One takes some platforming skills and one doesn't? doesn't a contextual jump show you where you have to go in a way? defeats the purpose of exploring kinda no?

I dont think he gets it.

[TacoTaru]

One takes some platforming skills and one doesn't? doesn't a contextual jump show you where you have to go in a way? defeats the purpose of exploring kinda no?

How would a contextual jump show you where you have to go if it doesn't activate until you're right on top of where it would trigger?

[Lucavi]

Because you wouldn't have known to jump at all, possibly, if it hadn't told you to jump there.

You may not understand it since XI and XIV are so horizontal, but there are plenty of games where you seriously discover something by accident - pure accident. Half of the environmental puzzles (with some pretty sick rewards) in Rift you pretty much discovered purely by accident. Granted, its also a game where you can go up about as much as you can go forward or backward, so perhaps we're just comparing two separate genres within the same MMO genre.

Here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sh6Cwxso_0w

A decent example of a game in beta with an environmental puzzle based on jumping. It wouldn't be much of a puzzle at all if every time you approached a pit, all you had to do was press X and the game automatically pre-scripted the exact way you jumped every time, so that your chance of failure was 0% regardless.

Its not a difficult concept to grasp.

[Spira]

well theres also X-2's jump mechanic, where you press to jump and dont press to just drop down.. but honestly i think contextual jump is too limiting in an MMO (and more of a hassle to script). I'm pretty sure this isn't even a point of debate, we're going to get a free jump.

its just a matter of what situation it can be applied in.

btw, the tiger(?) running animation in the video is so annoying. theres something about it that tells me i'll get a headache from looking at it too long

[TacoTaru]

I feel like we're talking about two different things. OOT's jump mechanic was not "press A to jump across this pit", it was press A to grab on to this ledge or to grab on to this object to move it. Jumping off ledges was executed by running at the ledge and rolling made that jump farther; it just didnt' require you to press a button to execute the jump. XIII's was just run into this wall until something happens, and that I can agree was dumb, but considering this whole "contextual jump" started around OOT, I thought we were still talking about that. Regardless, even XIII's didn't "show you were to go" it just did the jump for you. If you never find out where the hit marker is, you're not going to find that area. It's stupid, but it's not automatically showing you where all the secrets are either.

Maybe it's just because my uncle rammed "EXPLORE EXPLORE EXPLORE" into my head when I first started playing games, but a mechanic that OOT has isn't going to allow me to find something that I wouldn't have with a free jump. I'm probably going to jump around the border regardless if it's heavy in foliage or a waterfall just because my gaming history has dictated that "if something obstructs your view, there's probably something behind it."

[xopher]

do we really need another jumping discussion

[Lucavi]

You want to go back to discussing the rocks in a screenshot? If you can find something better to talk about, post a link and lets go.

[LD]

Oh man, Jumping and official forum.

This sounds so delicious.

Oh you.


Also, no I haven't played GW2. I hear great things, but I haven't bothered to look for a point of entry (so to speak).

You want to go back to discussing the rocks in a screenshot? If you can find something better to talk about, post a link and lets go.

Oh really? Cuz I got one.

If thief would be added, how would they go about it? Would it be a class first or the job of a class? It can't be a job of any existing class because the weapon is wrong and the naming conventions are off for too many core abilities.

I'm happy as PGL/MNK, it's just interesting to think about things like ability interactions. Honestly, I don't think they'll add thief unless people really whine for it.

[Niiro]

It kinda does, Niiro. Go play Rift or GW2 and solve an enviornmental puzzle, then come back and try to say what you just said. There's a huge difference in having to make the tricky jumps yourself vs. hugging invisible borders until you find the right place for the "press X to jump!" icon to pop up on your UI. That's the last thing I'm going to say about the issue, because its neither here nor there.

Go play OoT and say a contextual jump/climb system can't work. Also stop acting like I'm advocating the shitty quicktime XIII style movement.

You can have context while allowing flexibility and exploration.

Thats the whole point... To get where contextual jumps wouldn't normally take you. You think Blizzard thought up every single area where people could jump on top of? Absolutely not. The devs give you a mechanic and a world you're supposed to explore it as a player; go where ever you want. This is freedom.

Unfortunately people that want "photo-realism" can't understand that they're playing a game. You're supposed to be able to do shit you can't do in real life. Who cares if someone manages to get on top of some ridiculously tall tree or managed to get on top of some building (through in game methods) that devs didn't take into consideration? As long as it doesn't literally break the game it's fine. lol

Either the devs want you to be able to go somewhere or they don't, a free jump command changes nothing. A wall too high to jump over is just as insurmountable whether you have a free jump command or not. And we're talking about a game that is liked by so many because of the graphical style and the tone of the environment. Immersion is an aspect of a gaming experience and it's more important to some than others.

Also it sounds like you're making an argument to be able to explore every corner of a map, which has nothing to do with a free jump vs a contextual jump and everything to do with how they decide to design the zones as a whole. Either it's designed to be wholly contiguous and consistent allowing you access to everything you can see (I've never played WoW but from what I understand that would be such an example) or it's designed to be experienced in a more confined manner which is usually the cost of making certain aesthetic choices (XI being an example, you couldn't hop off silvertear falls and run to old Tavnazia because it was meant to be seen, not reached).

It's a sliding scale of exploration vs atmosphere and not the topic of discussion.

[Grey Jorildyn]

You want to go back to discussing the rocks in a screenshot? If you can find something better to talk about, post a link and lets go.

We need an epic fail thread like XI section has, where we cross-post dumb shit from the official forums and make fun of the people there for being happily ignorant to how the game actually works. Now there's some quality discussion!

[rezn0r]

i remember playing Asheron's Call for months and all I ever really did was run up and down hills and mountains while getting killed. my history with WoW is pretty similar. i can't picture that in an FF-mmo. as far as jumping goes though, i got nothin'. carry on!

[TacoTaru]

Oh really? Cuz I got one.

If thief would be added, how would they go about it? Would it be a class first or the job of a class? It can't be a job of any existing class because the weapon is wrong and the naming conventions are off for too many core abilities.

I'm happy as PGL/MNK, it's just interesting to think about things like ability interactions. Honestly, I don't think they'll add thief unless people really whine for it.

iirc Yoshida has flat out said he would remove daggers from GLA/PLD to add a dagger specific class since no one uses them. I also believe he said he was debating making Thief a class and Ninja the job for that class. Granted this was all just spitballing in an older interview so things certainly could have changed, but he's discussed Thief before and it's potential in the game.

[Fievel]

We need an epic fail thread like XI section has, where we cross-post dumb shit from the official forums and make fun of the people there for being happily ignorant to how the game actually works. Now there's some quality discussion!

This really does need to happen, if only to keep you guys busy so you don't have the same stupid arguments over and over.

[Kurokikaze]

Not to nitpick your list, but Elusive Jump can't be used in that manner. It doesn't recalculate positioning until landing, so it's useless in situations where moving quickly would be make or break (like Ifrit cracks or Chimeria AoEs).

Thats a server/client issue imo as opposed to an ability issue. The server is only checking for the client's location every X milliseconds. Hopefully better servers will correct that issue.

[Lucavi]

Oh really? Cuz I got one.

If thief would be added, how would they go about it? Would it be a class first or the job of a class? It can't be a job of any existing class because the weapon is wrong and the naming conventions are off for too many core abilities.

I'm happy as PGL/MNK, it's just interesting to think about things like ability interactions. Honestly, I don't think they'll add thief unless people really whine for it.

I'll take this: just don't do another piddly damage dagger while waiting for huge WS-style of class again. Daggers aren't all that weak.

Anything else would make me happy, but what ever happened to rings/chakram/boomerangs for thieves? Those are all classic "FF" staples, so why haven't we seen them in awhile in a useful form?

Who doesn't remember getting those massive crits against flying targets with Locke's Hawkeye.

[TacoTaru]

Thats a server/client issue imo as opposed to an ability issue. The server is only checking for the client's location every X milliseconds. Hopefully better servers will correct that issue.

Oh I see. I was under the assumption was actually a quirk with the ability itself since it's meant to dump hate rather meant as a way to dodge attacks (at least based off what I've been told; idk I don't play DRG). I certainly hope you're right as that would make it much more useful come 2.0!

[Kurokikaze]

iirc Yoshida has flat out said he would remove daggers from GLA/PLD to add a dagger specific class since no one uses them. I also believe he said he was debating making Thief a class and Ninja the job for that class. Granted this was all just spitballing in an older interview so things certainly could have changed, but he's discussed Thief before and it's potential in the game.

Rogue -> Thief

Ronin -> Ninja

There, I fixed that. People would bitch if THF was a base class and not a job.