Comments from the Devs

[Spider-Dan]

Yes, that's the advantage of lateral gear progression. You get a lot more equipment and you have to do a lot more micro-managing to get the best out of it.

Specifically, I'm thinking of specialized pieces like JSE. Suppose there's a new piece of gear that adds Regain to Hawk's Eye, or maybe it increases the range of Quick Nock, or maybe it converts Raging Strike charges to extra shadows on Decoy, etc.

Well, does this piece of gear also have elite DD stats?
No?
Then it's completely f'ing useless and might as well not even exist.

I guess some/many of you found these kinds of items annoying in XI. I did not. I didn't mind getting AF+1 legs for my holy bolt build, or an MAB necklace for my Quick Draw build, or AF+1 hands for my Trick Attack build. I liked doing these things, because it gave me something to aim for while we were grinding events for the top end gear that everyone had to have.

[Elcura]

Specifically, I'm thinking of specialized pieces like JSE. Suppose there's a new piece of gear that adds Regain to Hawk's Eye, or maybe it increases the range of Quick Nock, or maybe it converts Raging Strike charges to extra shadows on Decoy, etc.

Well, does this piece of gear also have elite DD stats?
No?
Then it's completely f'ing useless and might as well not even exist.

I guess some/many of you found these kinds of items annoying in XI. I did not. I didn't mind getting AF+1 legs for my holy bolt build, or a STP staff for my DSB build, or AF+1 hands for my Trick Attack build. I liked doing these things, because it gave me something to aim for while we were grinding events for the top end gear that everyone had to have.

One might also considering making gear more useful and encompassing to the situations it might be used for. Better designed gear means less need to swap, and often the only useful attributes on an item were surrounded by dumb attributes.

Also gear swapping could've been tied to materia system to make these unique attributes (like recovering MP during cover with PLD AF body) more desirable or transferable. Mostly, I think it's a huge mistake to put ability or spell modifiers on ever changing equipment rather than a specific spec build to customize separately.

Like I said, there are ways to make gear swapping fun, interesting and beneficial to game play, however I think XI is the worst example of a viable system, even as a starting point. XIV isn't better in that aspect, so when talking about gear swap solutions I wouldn't point to these two games as examples to behold. The only interesting thing gear swapping does can be accomplished equally by a system that has nothing to do with gear at all. Take out those interesting aspects and gear swapping is pointless, and the only power it has is the power developers give it. I don't think it's at all necessary, and certainly not at the level XI used it at.

[miokomioko]

Materia and the insanely low odds of every reaching true min/max shit in this game is enough of a loooooong-term goal for those types of players to go after.

[Denmork]

My problem with that is that I don't consider materia melding to be real content since it's all about gil sinks and RNG. At least things like Dynamis were an activity for people to actually do something.

[Spider-Dan]

One might also considering making gear more useful and encompassing to the situations it might be used for. Better designed gear means less need to swap, and often the only useful attributes on an item were surrounded by dumb attributes.

Even if you surround highly-specialized bonuses with more useful attributes (the aforementioned elite DD stats), you're still in the same boat for any other piece of new gear that's released: either it has better stats, in which case this JSE piece is obsoleted, or it has worse stats, in which case the new gear is useless on release. The fact that R/EX gear is unmeldable just exacerbates the issue; you don't have the option of melding your AF to keep the stats competitive with newer stuff, so (for example) BRD will soon be forced to choose between fulltiming a bodypiece with pathetic DD stats, or gimping their Ballads.

[Jamison]

It would have been a good way to achieve both goals by having the boosts to skills be a materia (raid) drop that was then slotted to the one piece of equipment that you wear. Bam, problem solved.

[Elcura]

Which is why I said it was useless and overall destructive to have such valuable (or rather very unique) attributes on any piece of gear at all. Gear should make you stronger overall, it should make you take less damage or deal more damage across the board or make all your spells stronger or faster. It shouldn't focus your abilities so without it you have something a little more lacklustre than usual and it certainly shouldn't force you to swap anything in for a marginal increase in performance that by all means was never necessary.

I think people only did that in XI because for such a long time you stayed at the exact same power level. The only way to be better was by marginal increases which rarely made even the easiest of bosses easier, because at that point everything felt the same in terms of difficulty. Hard was always hard, and easy was always easy.

I get you want to keep gear viable for longer, but that generally just isn't always an option and if it is it certainly isn't a good one. In what other game do you expect to keep around such low level, highly situation shit? It's not common practise for good reason. Gear swapping is flawed when you have unique attributes because as you said, something has gotta give and generally those enhancements don't do much but make you wonder if you should be wearing them to make yourself 1% better at casting this one spell or using this one ability.

I'll tell you what I think, I think that's perfectionism fucking with you. You don't need to be that good if it means the hassle and strain will eventually turn you away from the game. If the act of swapping doesn't make you just a little bit more tired than you would be without it, leading you to get fed up faster than you should. Maybe I'm just imagining things.

[miokomioko]

My problem with that is that I don't consider materia melding to be real content since it's all about gil sinks and RNG. At least things like Dynamis were an activity for people to actually do something.

Yeah, I don't really consider it "content" either. However, it's currently something for the "1%" players to strive for and sink their gil into that can potentially last a very long time. With this in mind, I don't think there's a reason to allow a gameplay mechanic (which should be purposeful or non-existent) that encourages gearing up for abilities instead of strategies, even if it would keep alive some otherwise dated content just because it drops "the best Stoneskin pants" or "the best crit-potency while at lower than 75% HP hat."

[Enygma55]

I like how it is now in XIV. You can't job change once battle begins (generate enmity) and you can't gear swap unless you disengage.

They won't ever prevent gear swapping during battle. They have to accomidate for on-the-fly adjustments like needing more acc or replacing broken gear as they break in battle.

The flow of battle is looking to pick up pace with the new battle system so you will probably lose more overall dps disengaging
to swap gear (and swap back which requires another disengage) than if you just don't worry about it.

[Spider-Dan]

I think people only did that in XI because for such a long time you stayed at the exact same power level. The only way to be better was by marginal increases which rarely made even the easiest of bosses easier, because at that point everything felt the same in terms of difficulty. Hard was always hard, and easy was always easy.

Well, I don't think it's quite as much about top-end min/maxing as much as it is, "Well, we're doing this event every day because it drops some gdlk pair of mage boots, but at least there's some other drop that's good for my Utsusemi casting build."

It's that kind of "sidegrade reward" that's missing from a gear-swap-less game. Either a piece of gear is good enough to wear fulltime, or it's inventory-1. Now maybe it's possible to make a game where (nearly) every event has something equally desirable for every class, and sidegrade rewards are unnecessary. But based on Yoshi's gear distribution so far, that doesn't seem likely.

In what other game do you expect to keep around such low level, highly situation shit? It's not common practise for good reason.

Again, it's not just about keeping gear around; it's about being able to offer gear rewards that aren't necessarily best-in-slot.

Gear swapping is flawed when you have unique attributes because as you said, something has gotta give and generally those enhancements don't do much but make you wonder if you should be wearing them to make yourself 1% better at casting this one spell or using this one ability.

In a game that embraces gear swapping, that is not a problem at all, since you can simply (for example) swap in your useless BRD AF body just to cast Ballad.

If the act of swapping doesn't make you just a little bit more tired than you would be without it, leading you to get fed up faster than you should.

Let's be honest: these games are all about gear acquisition. And I feel like the opportunity for small victories (situational sidegrade pieces), in combination with Windower macros (natch), made XI's system fun.

Any of the problems with gearswapping can be addressed at the system level quite easily, particularly given what we already know about ARR's mannequin system. Give me job-specific gear inventory (which they are) and the ability to designate, say, 10 gear sets (because no one would ever need more than 640k of memo...I mean, 10 sets per job) and I'm as happy as a clam.

[Kurokikaze]

I hate how sometimes I find myself disengaging to switch to AF body on PLD to get MP back on during Cover. Instead of doing stupid shit like this why don't they just give PLDs a way to get back MP back normally (buffing Outmaneuver would be nice). Or they can have Ability enhancing Materia that is meldable to U/U gear.

[Grey Jorildyn]

All those ability-enhancing gear bonuses are SE's pisspoor way of making up for lack of spec trees. It's just awful implementation.

[Elcura]

Well, I don't think it's quite as much about top-end min/maxing as much as it is, "Well, we're doing this event every day because it drops some gdlk pair of mage boots, but at least there's some other drop that's good for my Utsusemi casting build."

That drop could easily be an item that isn't related to gear. Your thinking is entirely too narrow. Why can't the event drop amazing gear for certain jobs and utility items for another? Why can't it have both? Events don't have to be boiled down to rewards you wear on your legs or feet or hold in your hand.

It's that kind of "sidegrade reward" that's missing from a gear-swap-less game. Either a piece of gear is good enough to wear fulltime, or it's inventory-1. Now maybe it's possible to make a game where (nearly) every event has something equally desirable for every class, and sidegrade rewards are unnecessary. But based on Yoshi's gear distribution so far, that doesn't seem likely.

But you know this isn't true. Not everything is equal even with sidegrades, because not all gear is created equally. Some items and weapons are simply better, even as sidegrades or alternatives. Some items fit the general mold better. A warrior who wants to deal damage should have damage dealing gear, side grades would make him tank better or hell, side grades could even make him into ranged DPS for fights that require it. There's so much you could do with side grades that don't boil down to minimal increases.

Again, it's not just about keeping gear around; it's about being able to offer gear rewards that aren't necessarily best-in-slot.

That can be achieved when gear doesn't have unique attributes. Why can't a side grade be something that redirects your role or focus rather than your specific abilities? A side grade for PLD could be a damage dealing set rather than pure tanking, the set could make PLD a viable damage dealer but not a viable tank, which would make gear sets useful but it wouldn't make specific gear necessary to perform or enhance specific abilities.

In a game that embraces gear swapping, that is not a problem at all, since you can simply (for example) swap in your useless BRD AF body just to cast Ballad.

I'm saying gear swapping is a problem when you start doing exactly this. When you start swapping gear, entire sets event for the sake of a single spell, ability or ws, then it's a problem. At that point you've gone to far, and I understand you find that fun. I understand you're arguing for that, and that might even be the way the game ends up going.

It would be the wrong direction to go in though. It's the opposite of fun, it becomes effort. Suddenly a BRD who isn't going that little bit further to cast Ballad is a bad BRD, and he shouldn't be punished because people have some weird, obsessive disease that comes with 1% minimal increases in performance. It's perverse and retarded.

Let's be honest: these games are all about gear acquisition. And I feel like the opportunity for small victories (situational sidegrade pieces), in combination with Windower macros (natch), made XI's system fun.

Any of the problems with gearswapping can be addressed at the system level quite easily, particularly given what we already know about ARR's mannequin system. Give me job-specific gear inventory (which they are) and the ability to designate, say, 10 gear sets (because no one would ever need more than 640k of memo...I mean, 10 sets per job) and I'm as happy as a clam.

Again, there's more to rewards and even abilities than gear itself. Progression is about overall power and effectiveness and that doesn't always have to be tied with gear. It could be a new materia tier, it could be new abilities and more often than not a lot of progression is tied solely to levels, while gear is used to slowly keep us occupied and doing content forever. That's all your really championing for -- longevity -- which is fine in some respects but like I said, it's a narrow-minded way of thinking especially when designing content or gear or anything.

[Lucavi]

@Lucavi Modern mages might, but SE hasn't given me any reason to believe it's going to change from what it is now. I'd love to have more to do in between spells, but I haven't been given a reason to believe that will be the case yet.

Trust me, I'm right with you. I may be one of the only ones that has been completely unimpressed with what I've seen of 2.0 thus far, aside from (once again) graphics. Its still early, but I have no reason to believe that SE will shake things up that need to be shaken up, that includes giving mages more to do aside from casting a fire spell and watching the graphic pop up under the enemy like they have for the last 20 years. Obviously I don't need masses of them casting a "firebolt" spell that poots its way toward the enemy ala DnD that we've seen for the last 40 years, but perhaps a compromise would be nice.

[Niiro]

Mages originally had plenty to do aside from spells, then they took them away.

I wouldn't hold my breath.

[Spider-Dan]

That drop could easily be an item that isn't related to gear. Your thinking is entirely too narrow. Why can't the event drop amazing gear for certain jobs and utility items for another? Why can't it have both? Events don't have to be boiled down to rewards you wear on your legs or feet or hold in your hand.

That's a separate argument. Besides, wouldn't you have the same objection (that you voice later) if you had to complete Cutter's Cry and get your Ballad Atma in order not to be considered gimp? The only difference is in inventory implementation.

But you know this isn't true. Not everything is equal even with sidegrades, because not all gear is created equally. Some items and weapons are simply better, even as sidegrades or alternatives.

Sure. But there's a huge difference between fitting every piece of gear into either "tank set" or "DD set," and fitting gear into "tank set" "DD set" "evasion set" "minimum recast set" "evasion recast set" "stun set" "nuking set". Without gearswapping, the only gearsets worth making are the ones that are used for long stretches at a time, and anything that cannot fit into such a set is completely useless.

I'm saying gear swapping is a problem when you start doing exactly this. When you start swapping gear, entire sets event for the sake of a single spell, ability or ws, then it's a problem. At that point you've gone to far, and I understand you find that fun. I understand you're arguing for that, and that might even be the way the game ends up going.

It would be the wrong direction to go in though. It's the opposite of fun, it becomes effort. Suddenly a BRD who isn't going that little bit further to cast Ballad is a bad BRD, and he shouldn't be punished because people have some weird, obsessive disease that comes with 1% minimal increases in performance. It's perverse and retarded.

This exact argument can be made against allowing cross-class abilities. Suddenly, a BLM who doesn't want to level a completely different class to 42 for Chameleon is considered "gimp." Similarly, in XI (75 era), a NIN who didn't want to level DRK to 37 for Stun would have been considered unacceptably gimped at endgame.

When you give the playerbase options, the community will expect players to take advantage of them. This is always the case, and limiting options specifically to prevent elitism is a poor trade-off.

[miokomioko]

Without gearswapping, the only gearsets worth making are the ones that are used for long stretches at a time, and anything that cannot fit into such a set is completely useless.

That's the job of new content and raid/enemy mechanics. These sets that are used for long stretches at a time should be different for each event and with each addition to the game should come re-evaluation of items that were before assumed to be useless.

Get it?

[Spider-Dan]

Why is a system that rewards getting a lot of specialized gear for each individual event better than a system that rewards getting a lot of specialized gear to improve a particular portion of your tactics (e.g. recast gear) in every event? At the end of the day, inventory is inventory.

The only difference is macro interaction, and as I've said repeatedly, ARR's current course is already within easy reach of a system that would eliminate the need for cumbersome XI-style macros.

[Kurokikaze]

All those ability-enhancing gear bonuses are SE's pisspoor way of making up for lack of spec trees. It's just awful implementation.

For real man...

[Elcura]

That's a separate argument. Besides, wouldn't you have the same objection (that you voice later) if you had to complete Cutter's Cry and get your Ballad Atma in order not to be considered gimp? The only difference is in inventory implementation.

Do you not see the difference it makes overall though? You get your Ballad whatever and your Ballad is better off for it in the long run. In the end, you can choose to have a better Ballad or not without it being dependant on gear, all it depends upon is whether the player wants a stronger ballad now or a stronger something else instead. Being able to switch back and forth if needed (like gear), only the choice persists throughout the fight until you feel you need to change or the situation/fight requires a change. Gear swapping accomplishes this too in a messy, clumsy and limiting way. The inventory space it takes is negligible if you consume it to activate it. So no, you wouldn't have the same objection because the choice is hardwired into the system, not by gear swapping.

Sure. But there's a huge difference between fitting every piece of gear into either "tank set" or "DD set," and fitting gear into "tank set" "DD set" "evasion set" "minimum recast set" "evasion recast set" "stun set" "nuking set". Without gearswapping, the only gearsets worth making are the ones that are used for long stretches at a time, and anything that cannot fit into such a set is completely useless.

Your worry is making things useless, but how much gear did XI have (side grades and all) that was useful? It was like 10% of all the gear created was good, the rest was trash.

Now, if you take gear sets and use them to focus roles you can cater to play styles and give more variety within job roles. You don't need 15 gear sets (because naturally a person like you has to have a gear set for eeeeeeeverything) you just need 2-3.

Again, I'm not saying you can't have gear swapping (though I am saying it's unnecessary) at some level. I'm saying you can't do gear swapping at XI's level. Ever.

This exact argument can be made against allowing cross-class abilities. Suddenly, a BLM who doesn't want to level a completely different class to 42 for Chameleon is considered "gimp." Similarly, in XI (75 era), a NIN who didn't want to level DRK to 37 for Stun would have been considered unacceptably gimped at endgame.

When you give the playerbase options, the community will expect players to take advantage of them. This is always the case, and limiting options specifically to prevent elitism is a poor trade-off.

There's a difference to leveling a job for sub-abilities and switching in equipment for casting spells for minimal increases. The difference is leveling an entirely new roll to access abilities. This gives you variety in game play, gives your job new and different options, opens you up to a new discipline that perhaps you'll love or hate. It gives you access to side quests and job missions and eventually it gives you another job to use (or not use) down the line.

While this is comparable to macro'ing in gear (I GUESS!), it doesn't have the same impact or scale. A player who doesn't want to level a job doesn't really equal a player who doesn't want to macro in AF body and switch back again every time they cast Ballad. It's slow and cumbersome, but if you want the game to be like that then I wouldn't see why you wouldn't want it.

I'm not limiting options to prevent elitism, and rofl if you think that XI style gear swaps are a viable option. I'm 'limiting' this option because -- and I'm going to bold this -- it just isn't fun. If you can't see that there is no hope for you. I already told you what I would do in this situation, and it would give players a shit load more freedom than gear swapping ever could. Gear swapping for 1% increases is the poorest, laziest and frankly the dumbest way to do this kind of thing.